Fellow Boardies Help, Is my ASM 1 Restored?

[FFB]

This book is so obviously restored that I can't believe anyone would miss it. Not you, not the dealer who sold it, unless you guys really don't know what color touch, trimming, and Japan paper look like.

 

Cover and Back First

 

 

[sufunk]

Let's pretend this was ebay and the seller was robo or bijou. Where do you stand? I don't think willful ignorance is far off from deception.

 

Id be curious about the stated grade and price. If he sauteed it was a 7 or 8 and priced at a 5 to hedge then maybe I could buy the risk argument. From what I gather he paid basically market for a blue.

 

Read the OP's post from June 10th, first.

 

So I recently walked into a small comic store, with a solid collection of silver and bronze age books. After buying a few (namely Silver Surfer 1-4, Hulk 102, and a few others), the owner asked if I wanted to see anything from his personal collection.

 

One of the items was a ASM #1 which is in VFN+, possibly NM- condition. However due to a few worries he had about restoration, he was selling it for the very low price of $9,500. He said that he has had it on the wall for ages, at that price, but no one has even asked to take a closer look at it.

 

Upon closer inspection, the cover is absolutely beautiful, no creases of any sort and the most minimal amount of chipping. The spine is in great condition and the staples are tight as can be. The cover shines great in the light, and there are no un-even spots.

 

The only concern is on the flip side of the cover, which when exposed to light shows two sections which are of a slightly darker color. This is not reflected on the front, where the same sections appear just fine. The collector suggested that this is why he keeps the price so low, as he's feared in the past that this could be the sign of restoration done, via the adding of rice paper or other adhesives to strengthen the back of the cover. He said that he'd never want to sell a book at Overstreet Price, and have someone come back with a CGC Restored Slab, which I can really respect.

 

The question is, do I go for the gamble? Are darker regions on the back side of the cover, definite signs of restoration? This book is definitely in the 8.0+ region, and if it comes back with a universal slab, I'm making out like a bandit.

 

Worst case scenario, if it comes back with a Restored CGC 8.0/8.5 or 9.0, how much can I realistically expect the book to be valued at. Will it even be close to the $9500, or does restoration cause the book to fall far below even this value?

 

There were obvious warning signs going in, and the buyer made a known gamble.

 

This is very different than a known criminal selling a restored book as unrestored.

 

Again, I'm not trying to rub it in. I feel for the guy and that feeling sucks when you've been taken but it seems he had some idea that there was risk involved.

 

 

My opinion has changed greatly as a result of this previously unknown to me information. Gambling on the if/come is 100% different than the way it was presented in this thread.

 

+1

 

I never saw that other thread and that's DEFINITELY not how it was presented here. He made it out like he was paying for a 7.0-8.0 blue label. That is NOT what that other post is saying. I still feel bad for you dude but I don't know how the hell you could not have seen that resto holding it in hand!

 

We've all been there when some nice grail book is staring us in the face and we make a REALLY bad decision based on emotion but damn there were some HUGE warning signs flashing in your face on this one! I'm still not a big fan of what the seller is doing here and still think he has no business selling 5 figure books if he wasn't sure that horrid resto was resto but my sympathy level is dropping fast. I just can't believe that book was in hand and not screaming "DON'T BUY ME!!!" before you laid 10 large in cash no less in this dudes hand

[fantastic_four]

This book is so obviously restored that I can't believe anyone would miss it. Not you, not the dealer who sold it, unless you guys really don't know what color touch, trimming, and Japan paper look like.

 

Given that 99.99% or more of collectors don't know what any of that looks like, the surprise in this thread that this small comic shop owner is a member of that overwhelming majority is puzzling to me.

[FFB]

I agree but to a certain extent I disagree about taking years to learn how to spot restoration. The restoration is obvious on this book to anyone who knows what acrylic paint, infills, and trimming are. It takes maybe an hour to show someone what that stuff looks like. There's a whole thread about spotting resto in the Grading and Resto forums.

 

This is exactly why I think it is crazy for people who don't know how to spot restoration to be buying big dollar raw books.

 

To the OP, I don't know who you brought with you to check for restoration, but whoever it was needs some basic training. Even the trim job is botched in multiple places!

 

When you posted about this book, I and others advised you to take someone with you who knew how to spot restoration. I even specifically gave you at least one name of a local chap who could probably spot the restoration on this book from across the room.

 

I can't imagine why, under the circumstances as you laid them out, you did not arrange for some kind of a return policy on this book that cost as much as a slabbed copy. It is hard to feel bad for you when you've disregarded the advice and ignored the urgings of caution from multiple people in the Grading and Resto forum, and jumped in knowing that there could be a problem with the book without making sure you could return it within a reasonable time. And you did this because you think you might what? Beat the GPA price you just paid after you pay the express slabbing fee?

 

I can't figure out what you were thinking here. I'm not trying to be rude; I truly just don't get why you'd pay what you paid and make the deal you made when people were warning you off, and most of all, why you'd spend slabbed money for an unslabbed book that would not grade out at 8.0 even if it were unrestored.

 

FWIW, I think this book will get an APP 5.0 Extensive P Trimmed. It's worth maybe 10% of what you paid for it.

 

First off, don't blame yourself, though if you are going to jump into the deep end of the pool, you really should know how to swim first. Spotting Resto takes years (and sometimes thousands of dollars) worth of experience. That's why CGC is around, and still so valuable despite their occasional flaws. I really don't know what you have into the book, so its hard to ascertain whether it would be worthwhile to try and slab and resell. If sent to CGC, my guess is that it would get a 5.0-6.0 grade, with Moderate to Extensive Amateur resto. I'm not sure what comparable copies like that go for, but you may want to check GPA.

 

As for the dealer with 30 years of experience, did he sell this book to you as unrestored? You said you paid close to GPA for it, but also indicated early on you thought it was an 8.0? I hope you didn't pay CGC 8.0 type money for it, and if you did, you really need to contact the seller and make sure he does right by you.

 

Or, you can out him on the boards before he's had a chance to make ammends...the Local 58 Pitchfork Brigade has your back.

[sufunk]

This book is so obviously restored that I can't believe anyone would miss it. Not you, not the dealer who sold it, unless you guys really don't know what color touch, trimming, and Japan paper look like.

 

Given that 99.99% or more of collectors don't know what any of that looks like, the surprise in this thread that this small comic shop owner is a member of that overwhelming majority is puzzling to me.

 

I gotta disagree. I think a good majority of people buying or selling books like ASM1 know that there is such a thing as restoration. Yes, some is incredibly hard to detect and I definitely could be fooled by some but not this book. That upper right corner and the trim job especially. That scan of the inside of the cover looks like my 7 year old took scissors to it. Actually, my 7 year old would have done a MUCH better job, much!!! Thats just horrible and completely uneven. Holding that in hand, I just don't see how anyone who's been in this industry for 30+ years couldn't have had a REALLY bad feeling about that book and known that some resto had taken place

[FFB]

This book is so obviously restored that I can't believe anyone would miss it. Not you, not the dealer who sold it, unless you guys really don't know what color touch, trimming, and Japan paper look like.

 

Given that 99.99% or more of collectors don't know what any of that looks like, the surprise in this thread that this small comic shop owner is a member of that overwhelming majority is puzzling to me.

 

The OP was in the grading and resto forum the past couple of days talking about whether this book might be restored or not. We gave him advice about who to take with him to help spot the restoration and told him to be extra careful because the circumstances were so suspicious:

 

Dealer "knows" book would sell for a lot more slabbed, but wants to see if he can sell it unslabbed first. But if you don't buy it, then he's thinking of sending it in to get it slabbed, as which point the current price (which was already insanely high if he paid GPA for that book) would be off the table. Book looks funny to the OP, but he doesn't know if the stuff that looks funny is resto or not.

 

 

And don't tell me that this 30-year comic dealer who has a no-returns policy and knows what CGC and GPA are doesn't know how to spot obvious, extensive restoration and a bad trim job.

[Joe Kim]

Emotion definitely got the best of me. My father has cancer and will soon pass away and, he has always lamented that his mom gave away his ASM 1 and FF 1 to Goodwill while he was at College. I wanted to buy him the ASM 1 as a final gift, and read it to him at the hospital.

 

I know its just a sob story, but thats the truth. Emotion clouded my judgement, and I made a hasty purchase.

[FFB]

You know, Roy, your post makes me think about the flip side - the dealer's obligation to learn to spot restoration if the dealer is going to sell books of this caliber. The customer should learn how to protect him/herself, but the dealer (esp. a 30 year dealer dealing in SA keys) should know the basics - and most of them DO.

 

TBH reading your account, in the other thread, you knew you were possibly buying a restored book The dealer said as much and specifically stated that he feared it was restored and that he was selling it to you at a low price for that very reason. unfortunately for you not a low enough price

 

OK he didn't fully disclose the full extent of the restoration, but assuming he knew enough to know it was restored but not enough to document everything, then he gave you enough info to make an informed decision, which was simply not to buy it for $9.5k. You really should have gone away and found a price that such a book was worth restored and made a counter offer or at least had a CGC based return policy. You took his high price for a restored book and paid regardless and that was a big mistake

 

As much as I hate that the buyer is taking a loss, this is exactly where I'm at too.

 

People want to gamble (those were the OP's words in the original thread that was started 2 weeks ago) but not have any risk of loss. Well, that's not a gamble, that's stacking the deck in your favour.

 

As far as being a professional seller, I myself would offer a refund on any missed resto but there needs to be some integrity as a buyer as well. We always hear about how there are bad sellers out there but there are also bad buyers...and those are buyers who want to have their cake and eat it too.

 

As a buyer if you are willing to gamble, and that is the exact wording of the OP in the other thread, then you are willing to take a hit when you gamble and lose...especially if all the tell tale signs are there to warn you ahead of time.

 

Again, I'm not hard nosed about it. I can sympathize - but I can also understand ignoring the signs to avoid a deal because I've been there and done than. And lost, learned and moved on.

 

[FFB]

Emotion definitely got the best of me. My father has cancer and will soon pass away and, he has always lamented that his mom gave away his ASM 1 and FF 1 to Goodwill while he was at College. I wanted to buy him the ASM 1 as a final gift, and read it to him at the hospital.

 

I know its just a sob story, but thats the truth. Emotion clouded my judgement, and I made a bad bad purchase.

 

Why can't you get a refund? I am not going to go back and sift through all nine pages to find the specifics.

[Joe Kim]

I'm going to talk to the dealer tomorrow and see what can be done.

[sufunk]

+1

 

And unless I'm crazy, he said he and the dealer looked at the cover with a magnifying glass and couldn't see anything. I don't care what anyone says about "most people don't know what resto is", this dealer DEFINITELY does since he knew enough to say it might be restored.

 

I'd really, really like someone here to tell me that a guy selling for 30 years and sells books like Hulk 1's and ASM1's couldn't tell that was restored looking at it under a magnifying glass and not only didn't see the resto but thought it was so freaking nice that he was immediately getting it slabbed if you didn't fork over 10k cash ASAP!

 

Tell me again what a great standup guy this seller is

[fantastic_four]

And don't tell me that this 30-year comic dealer who has a no-returns policy and knows what CGC and GPA are doesn't know how to spot obvious, extensive restoration and a bad trim job.

 

Except that he's already indicated he's open to a return. There are about a dozen 30+ year dealers in my area, and I can't imagine that any of them can detect restoration aside from maybe one.

[fantastic_four]

I gotta disagree. I think a good majority of people buying or selling books like ASM1 know that there is such a thing as restoration. Yes, some is incredibly hard to detect and I definitely could be fooled by some but not this book. That upper right corner and the trim job especially. That scan of the inside of the cover looks like my 7 year old took scissors to it. Actually, my 7 year old would have done a MUCH better job, much!!! Thats just horrible and completely uneven. Holding that in hand, I just don't see how anyone who's been in this industry for 30+ years couldn't have had a REALLY bad feeling about that book and known that some resto had taken place

 

The reason 99.99% of collectors can't detect it is that 99% don't care one way or the other, and the .99% of those that do don't have a good resource to learn detection from. There are hundreds of small shop owners who bought their books when they were far cheaper and don't know if they've had work done to them--Symbiotic's story thus far is consistent with such an owner. If he regularly deals in high-end books, then you're right, his story doesn't hold water. You yourself are interested in it because you're shelling out lots of money for your books--if this local shop owner bought them when they were cheap, he would have never had that same incentive you do.

[sufunk]

I gotta disagree. I think a good majority of people buying or selling books like ASM1 know that there is such a thing as restoration. Yes, some is incredibly hard to detect and I definitely could be fooled by some but not this book. That upper right corner and the trim job especially. That scan of the inside of the cover looks like my 7 year old took scissors to it. Actually, my 7 year old would have done a MUCH better job, much!!! Thats just horrible and completely uneven. Holding that in hand, I just don't see how anyone who's been in this industry for 30+ years couldn't have had a REALLY bad feeling about that book and known that some resto had taken place

 

The reason 99.99% of collectors can't detect it is that 99% don't care one way or the other, and the .99% of those that do don't have a good resource to learn detection from. There are hundreds of small shop owners who bought their books when they were far cheaper and don't know if they've had work done to them--Symbiotic's story thus far is consistent with such an owner. If he regularly deals in high-end books, then you're right, his story doesn't hold water. You yourself are interested in it because you're shelling out lots of money for your books--if this local shop owner bought them when they were cheap, he would have never had that same incentive you do.

 

Understood but this guy knows what resto is since he said he's worried it's restored. I just can't believe that looking at it with a magnifying glass like they said he did, he not only didn't see it but was immediately slabbing it if the Op didn't fork over 10k cash and he really regretted even offering it at that price. Of course, he would still take the 10k and miss out on this awesome graded book if the OP showed up with 10k cash ASAP cus he's a "man of his word"

 

I'm sorry but my wildly_fanciful_statement meter is ringing so loud my neighbors are calling the freaking cops right now! I don't believe for a second this seller didn't know 100% for a fact there was massive problems with this book and was dancing in the streets last night that he finally found a sucker. Yeah, he might do a robojo return and act like a "standup guy and great seller" but i wouldn't buy a book from this guy for all the money in the world

[fantastic_four]

I just can't believe that looking at it with a magnifying glass like they said he did, he not only didn't see it but was immediately stabbing it if the Op didn't fork over 10k cash and he really regretted even offering it at that price.

 

He DID see it, and he disclosed it to the original poster--he just told him he didn't know how to tell for sure that it was restoration.

[sufunk]

I just can't believe that looking at it with a magnifying glass like they said he did, he not only didn't see it but was immediately stabbing it if the Op didn't fork over 10k cash and he really regretted even offering it at that price.

 

He DID see it, and he disclosed it to the original poster--he just told him he didn't know how to tell for sure that it was restoration.

 

I can't believe that. That trim job in the scan looks like when I used to volunteer at my kids kindergarten class. Actually it's slightly worse

[seanfingh]

There are hundreds of small shop owners who bought their books when they were far cheaper and don't know if they've had work done to them--Symbiotic's story thus far is consistent with such an owner.

 

How does this hypothetical "aw-shucks" bucolic seller know about the "Price at GPA for raw books" sleight of hand?

[sufunk]

There are hundreds of small shop owners who bought their books when they were far cheaper and don't know if they've had work done to them--Symbiotic's story thus far is consistent with such an owner.

 

How does this hypothetical "aw-shucks" bucolic seller know about the "Price at GPA for raw books" sleight of hand?

 

I just had to google "bucolic"

[fantastic_four]

How does this hypothetical "aw-shucks" bucolic seller know about the "Price at GPA for raw books" sleight of hand?

 

Don't know, Symbiotic isn't giving details about him, presumably because he's sitll trying to protect his identity, which given the tendency for people to jump to conclusions is a good move.

[greggy]

Also, Kenny Ze-Man drools and greggy rules.

 

Greggy

 

End of story.

Ellen >> Kenny