slym2none Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Once again, FTR - I have never argued which book is more popular. I have never said one should cost more than the other. The market has already decided, and I am fine with that. Some people, though (not many on this board, natch), think that Incredible Hulk #181 is Wolverine's first appearance. This is what my "deal" is. I want people to know that #181 is not the first appearance. #180 is. That is all. Wolverine's first (full) appearance, first story appearance, first cover appearance > cameofirst ever appearance in one panel on last page. -J. I have never said differently. -slym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boboset Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Once again, FTR - I have never argued which book is more popular. I have never said one should cost more than the other. The market has already decided, and I am fine with that. Some people, though (not many on this board, natch), think that Incredible Hulk #181 is Wolverine's first appearance. This is what my "deal" is. I want people to know that #181 is not the first appearance. #180 is. That is all. Wolverine's first (full) appearance, first story appearance, first cover appearance > cameofirst ever appearance in one panel on last page. -J. I have never said differently. -slym This is my point, Slym. You discredit the importance of what the collector base has already decided about 180/181. Wolverine appeared in the last page of 180, it's a big time cameo, and then he subsequently appears in 181. That's collecting 101. The term cameo carries massive weight. To do away with it is an unnecessary and extreme oversimplification. There's no rules or logic behind determining what constitutes a cameo. It's a cameo when the collector base decides it is. If you want an even more illogical use of the term cameo go look at UXM Annual 14 and UXM 266. It makes no sense but it doesn't have to because the collector base has already decided that UXM Annual 14 is the first (cameo) appearance and UXM 266 is the first (full) appearance. The same thing was decided about 180/181 decades ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTLarsen Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I suppose the whole argument is just based on semantics. The general public accepts that 181 is the first appearance because they are told (by the CGC and other grading companies) that it is. It was thought of as his first appearance way before CGC ever came into existence. Not so. Would love to see any kind of guide listing that put 181 as his first with no mention of his actual first (cameo, whatever) in 180. Link? Scan? Absolutely yes so. #181 is broken out in the Overstreet for the first time in issue #8 (1978) and remained that way for the next three years, until Overstreet #11 hit the stands and for the first time listed #180 as a cameo. Jim My apologies. But, c'mon, I think the bigger point here is that it wasn't a big deal--look how it's priced compared to the Doc Samson and Warlock appearances. I think once people actually started caring about it, people realized quickly that he made his big, splashy panel debut in 180. That's just not true. Once the character began picking up steam, 181 commanded a premium over 180. I can remember as early as 1982 181 being a $20 wall book at a few stores around Chicago with 180, 182 still being in the back issue bins. Yes, of course. But I didn't say anything that contradicts this. My point is that, almost as soon as people actually cared about 181, the distinction with 180 was made. For the vast majority of Wolvie's history as a coveted character, the industry has made clear that 181 was first full appearance and 180 was first appearance (cameo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTLarsen Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Once again, FTR - I have never argued which book is more popular. I have never said one should cost more than the other. The market has already decided, and I am fine with that. Some people, though (not many on this board, natch), think that Incredible Hulk #181 is Wolverine's first appearance. This is what my "deal" is. I want people to know that #181 is not the first appearance. #180 is. That is all. Wolverine's first (full) appearance, first story appearance, first cover appearance > cameofirst ever appearance in one panel on last page. -J. I have never said differently. -slym This is my point, Slym. You discredit the importance of what the collector base has already decided about 180/181. Wolverine appeared in the last page of 180, it's a big time cameo, and then he subsequently appears in 181. That's collecting 101. The term cameo carries massive weight. To do away with it is an unnecessary and extreme oversimplification. There's no rules or logic behind determining what constitutes a cameo. It's a cameo when the collector base decides it is. If you want an even more illogical use of the term cameo go look at UXM Annual 14 and UXM 266. It makes no sense but it doesn't have to because the collector base has already decided that UXM Annual 14 is the first (cameo) appearance and UXM 266 is the first (full) appearance. The same thing was decided about 180/181 decades ago. And these things stay decided. Until they get un-decided. These things can and do get changed. Witness the evolution (for different reasons) of the first appearance of Sgt. Rock. Or the coming realization about the first appearance of the Teen Titans (B&B 60). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boboset Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Once again, FTR - I have never argued which book is more popular. I have never said one should cost more than the other. The market has already decided, and I am fine with that. Some people, though (not many on this board, natch), think that Incredible Hulk #181 is Wolverine's first appearance. This is what my "deal" is. I want people to know that #181 is not the first appearance. #180 is. That is all. Wolverine's first (full) appearance, first story appearance, first cover appearance > cameofirst ever appearance in one panel on last page. -J. I have never said differently. -slym This is my point, Slym. You discredit the importance of what the collector base has already decided about 180/181. Wolverine appeared in the last page of 180, it's a big time cameo, and then he subsequently appears in 181. That's collecting 101. The term cameo carries massive weight. To do away with it is an unnecessary and extreme oversimplification. There's no rules or logic behind determining what constitutes a cameo. It's a cameo when the collector base decides it is. If you want an even more illogical use of the term cameo go look at UXM Annual 14 and UXM 266. It makes no sense but it doesn't have to because the collector base has already decided that UXM Annual 14 is the first (cameo) appearance and UXM 266 is the first (full) appearance. The same thing was decided about 180/181 decades ago. And these things stay decided. Until they get un-decided. These things can and do get changed. Witness the evolution (for different reasons) of the first appearance of Sgt. Rock. Or the coming realization about the first appearance of the Teen Titans (B&B 60). And you think that will happen with Incredible Hulk 180/181? Good point btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Once again, FTR - I have never argued which book is more popular. I have never said one should cost more than the other. The market has already decided, and I am fine with that. Some people, though (not many on this board, natch), think that Incredible Hulk #181 is Wolverine's first appearance. This is what my "deal" is. I want people to know that #181 is not the first appearance. #180 is. That is all. Wolverine's first (full) appearance, first story appearance, first cover appearance > cameofirst ever appearance in one panel on last page. -J. I have never said differently. -slym This is my point, Slym. You discredit the importance of what the collector base has already decided about 180/181. Wolverine appeared in the last page of 180, it's a big time cameo, and then he subsequently appears in 181. That's collecting 101. The term cameo carries massive weight. To do away with it is an unnecessary and extreme oversimplification. There's no rules or logic behind determining what constitutes a cameo. It's a cameo when the collector base decides it is. If you want an even more illogical use of the term cameo go look at UXM Annual 14 and UXM 266. It makes no sense but it doesn't have to because the collector base has already decided that UXM Annual 14 is the first (cameo) appearance and UXM 266 is the first (full) appearance. The same thing was decided about 180/181 decades ago. And these things stay decided. Until they get un-decided. These things can and do get changed. Witness the evolution (for different reasons) of the first appearance of Sgt. Rock. Or the coming realization about the first appearance of the Teen Titans (B&B 60). Apple, meet Orange. (thumbs u -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffro. Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Imagine if Overstreet from the get-go had labeled them like this.. Hulk 180 - First appearance of Walverine Hulk 181 - Second appearance of Walverine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Imagine if Overstreet from the get-go had labeled them like this.. Hulk 180 - First appearance of Walverine Hulk 181 - Second appearance of Walverine Then there would have been two typos. As Boboset has mentioned, the concept of "cameo" versus "first full appearances" in the hobby has been a well settled distinction *with* a difference for a very long time. A picture of a character in one panel at the end of a book that is obviously meant simply to entice the reader to buy the next issue is just not that important in the hobby, especially in the cover-centric era the age of the slab that CGC has put us in. The proof of this is the paltry values of 180 as compared to 181. Jim put it best : 180 is the "poor man's 181". I don't think anyone is going out on a limb by saying that will never change. That battle truly is lost, though I do appreciate these periodic, rather Quixotic attempts to rattle the cage from time to time. -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divad Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Yes, and Nixon was elected President . . . twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Hood Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 The only thing heating up in this thread is the steaming pile of Hulk 180 &181jibber-jabber. Keep this thread focused and start a different Hulk thread, please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffro. Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 So, is Foom 2 a prototype for Wolverine or Walverine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comicopolis Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 So, is Foom 2 a prototype for Wolverine or Walverine? That would be Froom #2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Cataldo Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 No, it would be Faam #2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aweandlorder Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slym2none Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 1) I am not discounting anything. I am sorry anyone feels that way. 2) A cameo can be, and in many cases is, a first appearance. On that, I'm out. I don't want to make this thread anymore of a "stinking pile" than it already is. -slym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTLarsen Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Once again, FTR - I have never argued which book is more popular. I have never said one should cost more than the other. The market has already decided, and I am fine with that. Some people, though (not many on this board, natch), think that Incredible Hulk #181 is Wolverine's first appearance. This is what my "deal" is. I want people to know that #181 is not the first appearance. #180 is. That is all. Wolverine's first (full) appearance, first story appearance, first cover appearance > cameofirst ever appearance in one panel on last page. -J. I have never said differently. -slym This is my point, Slym. You discredit the importance of what the collector base has already decided about 180/181. Wolverine appeared in the last page of 180, it's a big time cameo, and then he subsequently appears in 181. That's collecting 101. The term cameo carries massive weight. To do away with it is an unnecessary and extreme oversimplification. There's no rules or logic behind determining what constitutes a cameo. It's a cameo when the collector base decides it is. If you want an even more illogical use of the term cameo go look at UXM Annual 14 and UXM 266. It makes no sense but it doesn't have to because the collector base has already decided that UXM Annual 14 is the first (cameo) appearance and UXM 266 is the first (full) appearance. The same thing was decided about 180/181 decades ago. And these things stay decided. Until they get un-decided. These things can and do get changed. Witness the evolution (for different reasons) of the first appearance of Sgt. Rock. Or the coming realization about the first appearance of the Teen Titans (B&B 60). And you think that will happen with Incredible Hulk 180/181? Good point btw. No, I don't. The information about those two books seems to be pretty clear and accurate. 180 = a first (cameo) appearance. 181 = first full appearance. I'm just saying the notion that the market "decides" -- and then the decision magically, always, sticks forever -- ain't so. The market can change its mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beamer Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Time to change the subject now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 180 = first appearance (a cameo can be a first appearance, IDK why people are so reluctant to accept that) Do I really need to go into this again? Did you ever read comics as a kid? As in READ them just to READ them and experience the stories, follow your favorite characters, etc.? Well I did, and before sportscard dealers brought this whole "rookie card" mentality to comics in the late-80's, people actually READ these things, so ask yourself this: If you are looking to READ and collect a back issue (remember, there were no TPBs) about your fave character's past exploits, would you choose: a) a comic with the first single panel of your fave character and no cover appearance. or b) a comic with the first entire story about your fave character and an action cover image. That's why "first FULL appearances/covers" were more popular and worth more historically pre-CGC, and will continue to be, as in the CGC entombed comic world, covers mean more than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighStakesComics Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Walverine=Wolverine with Boston accent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarrisonJohn Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 180 = first appearance (a cameo can be a first appearance, IDK why people are so reluctant to accept that) Do I really need to go into this again? Did you ever read comics as a kid? As in READ them just to READ them and experience the stories, follow your favorite characters, etc.? Well I did, and before sportscard dealers brought this whole "rookie card" mentality to comics in the late-80's, people actually READ these things, so ask yourself this: If you are looking to READ and collect a back issue (remember, there were no TPBs) about your fave character's past exploits, would you choose: a) a comic with the first single panel of your fave character and no cover appearance. or b) a comic with the first entire story about your fave character and an action cover image. That's why "first FULL appearances/covers" were more popular and worth more historically pre-CGC, and will continue to be, as in the CGC entombed comic world, covers mean more than ever. 100% agree. Ist Appearances became valuable because fans wanted to read a popular characters first story, which usually also contained their origin, their first costume, their first battle. That's what the value was in. Not so much a technical first sighting of someone. I think anyone buying a Hulk 181 today is aware of the cameo in 180 anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
