Copper's Heating/Selling Well on Ebay 33 33

[vaillant]

Wait, wha?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marvel-Age-Annual-4-FIRST-DAMAGE-CONTROL-PREVIEW-VF-Great-Shape-Art-Adams-/371458036209?hash=item567c9fd1f1

 

Wait, previews can be first appearances?

 

If the story is original, yes. If not, no. The nature of a "preview" almost universally means that it's material intended to be printed elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure that the Damage Control preview in Marvel Age Annual #4 is not excerpts from the book, but it's been a while since I read it. I do remember that the Wolverine preview is sort of a recap of what had been happening with the character in X-Men, so it's not exactly a story, although the art is original.

 

A good example of a legit first appearance in a preview is Lazarus.

 

I just read the story in Marvel Age Annual #4. It's a 4 page, original story that predates Damage Control's other appearances. Even at only 4 pages, it's actually a frame story - the first page has a guy from Damage Control approaching the Joe Fixit version of Hulk and handing him a brochure about Damage Control. Pages 2-3 are basically an ad for Damage Control (which Hulk is reading) explaining what the series is. And page 4 is Hulk kicking the guy's butt and tossing him out of the casino.

 

So it is an original story, not an excerpt of a later published issue. It's not much of a first appearance - in terms of these sorts of things, it's not as strong as something like Rat Queens in Image What's Next - but I think it is their first appearance.

 

Erm, we're talking Damage Control, right?

Who cares?

Even if this show gets picked, and even if it does better than Walking dead (Sorry, I have to be my eccentric self here, bear with me), its still a series about a unit reconstructing demolished areas. How will this ever generate cult following status??

People just get into the habit of "investing" in "optioned" books without even thinking of the book's context. This is a fun series, a brilliant concept and Im glad it got picked. But come on now..

 

When it comes to Hollywood I think the "yeah, we can do it but should we?" Question got thrown out the window a long time ago.

(And not only Hollywood).

[vaillant]

Power Pack movie in the future.

 

Honestly, but I don’t get this. A good portion of the Power Pack (original series) issues are some of the best material put out by Marvel in that period.

Single issues are proper masterpieces – I have the impression that either people no longer understand the inner life of children or just have never read it. :shrug:

[vaillant]

Deadworld #10 is a good example where the back cover ad created demand and value for the book

There are people which collect ads but honestly… Usually the motivation is different and it’s often for historical research. I can’t believe someone sees ads or articles as "first apperances": it’s obvious that the term ALWAYS referred to comics stories in this context. As awesome an article or whatever it is, it’s not the comic story.

[jsilverjanet]

Power Pack movie in the future.

 

Honestly, but I don’t get this. A good portion of the Power Pack (original series) issues are some of the best material put out by Marvel in that period.

Single issues are proper masterpieces – I have the impression that either people no longer understand the inner life of children or just have never read it. :shrug:

 

I think power pack would be a win for Disney

[vaillant]

Power Pack movie in the future.

 

Honestly, but I don’t get this. A good portion of the Power Pack (original series) issues are some of the best material put out by Marvel in that period.

Single issues are proper masterpieces – I have the impression that either people no longer understand the inner life of children or just have never read it. :shrug:

 

I think power pack would be a win for Disney

Well, I haven’t liked at all what Disney has been doing with the feature-length movies in the last years, but they could do something good with a Power Pack movie if the screenplay is written by some good writer and the director would try to respect the book at its utmost. Certain issues would make a great choice for a movie story in themselves (the one with Franklin having the nightmare about the sentinel could also tie-in to a potential well done FF movie).

[Gatsby77]

Deadworld #10 is a good example where the back cover ad created demand and value for the book

 

Ditto Goobledygook # 1.

 

I'm not opposed to ads having significance (Megaton Explosion is so cool because the characters didn't get an actual book for another 5 years) but I'm in the "must have sequential art/story" camp for a 1st appearance.

 

So TMNT # 1 is the (true) 1st appearance of TMNT; New Mutants 87 is the (true) 1st appearance of Cable (vs. the thumbnail ad on the last page of 86), Youngblood 1 (if anyone cared), Man of Steel 18 (even though all those previews had the pounding fist, but in mere cameos), etc.

[Aweandlorder]

Power Pack movie in the future.

 

 

Link?

[divad]

This banter sucks in a copper heating up thread. Just Sayin

[RockMyAmadeus]

I still don't see how a preview that's intended to be in another publication or not matters. If Rick Grimes appears in Capes 1 then that's the first Rick Grimes no matter what it sells for. You really need to forget the monetary value of the thing and trust your eyes.

 

For arguments sake I'm willing to discount all ADs for a second and just look at excerpts of sequential art. Do we not see Rick Grimes in a sequential story for the first time in Capes/Agents 1?

Then you just conceded the argument, because previews are ads for the comic. They're marketing content.

 

I said for arguments sake.

 

I still firmly believe that ads can represents a first appearance but I understand that many around here disagree.

 

A preview like WD in Capes is another story. That's a first appearance of major characters.

 

No.

 

The problem is that when we are talking about making money off the WD.

 

No.

 

The market jumped on issue 1 because collectors were not knowledgeable of the preview.

 

No.

 

As we all know markets can take a long time to make the proper corrections. I believe RMA thinks I am trying to change the monetary value of a book like WD 1 in the marketplace and that is not true.

 

No.

 

(Nor do I care. I do not own, and have never owned, and likely never will own, a Walking Dead #1, and have absolutely no interest, beyond scholarly curiosity, in its monetary value.)

 

Besides at this point it's probably impossible for many valid reasons RMA states. I know it's hard for people who see comics as mostly a source of income to realize the importance of say a Rust 1 which prints Spawn in black and white for the first time or Superman Adv 4 which prints the cover to 5 but in black and white one month earlier or the plethora of others...

 

That's a specious argument.

 

Omega Men 2, ASM 359 and on an on. In a lot of these cases I even agree that a first comic book appearance should be should be WORTH more. Just don't tell me for decades a bunch of collectors and dealers use some arbitrary definition that RMA made up to suit his argument.

 

Nonsense.

 

It's not "my" definition, and it's not "my" argument. This "argument" existed long before I was BORN, and it wasn't an argument...everyone simply accepted it as fact. I can point you to literally decades of literature, starting with the Overstreet Price Guide, and moving on to CBG, the Comics Journal, and countless fanzines going back to the early 60's.

 

ADS are NOT "first appearances." They are advertisements for UPCOMING publications.

 

Can you point to any publication, anywhere in the entire history of comics, that makes a serious argument that ads represent actual appearances?

 

If you can...by all means, post it here.

 

But if you cannot....then do NOT call these definitions "made up" and "arbitrary" when they have been in existence since literally the beginning of comics fandom.

 

No one refers to Action Comics #12 (among others) as the first appearance of Batman.

 

No one refers to Daredevil #115 (among others) as the first appearance of Wolverine.

 

No one refers to Iron Fist #13 as the first appearance of Sabretooth.

 

It's only you Johnny-come-latelies that are trying to redefine terms that have been accepted for literally decades that are "making up" "arbitrary" definitions.

 

Let's stop being silly, now.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Deadworld #10 is a good example where the back cover ad created demand and value for the book

 

No one is arguing that an ad cannot create demand and value.

 

But it's NOT the Crow's first appearance. That is Caliber Presents #1.

[Mr 9.8]

Deadworld #10 is a good example where the back cover ad created demand and value for the book

 

No one is arguing that an ad cannot create demand and value.

 

But it's NOT the Crow's first appearance. That is Caliber Presents #1.

[B-Smooth]

Deadworld #10 is a good example where the back cover ad created demand and value for the book

 

No one is arguing that an ad cannot create demand and value.

 

But it's NOT the Crow's first appearance. That is Caliber Presents #1.

So, Hulk 180 ISN'T the first appearance of Wolverine? Is that last panel an advertisement of sorts for the next issue? I will always believe 180 is his first appearance, and that will never change, but I'm with you on the gobbledygook's of the world. Not 1st appearances, but ads.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

Deadworld #10 is a good example where the back cover ad created demand and value for the book

 

No one is arguing that an ad cannot create demand and value.

 

But it's NOT the Crow's first appearance. That is Caliber Presents #1.

So, Hulk 180 ISN'T the first appearance of Wolverine? Is that last panel an advertisement of sorts for the next issue? I will always believe 180 is his first appearance, and that will never change, but I'm with you on the gobbledygook's of the world. Not 1st appearances, but ads.

Not sure if that's a serious question or not, but you've provided the perfect example of a straw man. No one has claimed that that last page is an ad of any sort. It's part of the story that serves as a teaser for the next issue.

[JTLarsen]

Deadworld #10 is a good example where the back cover ad created demand and value for the book

 

No one is arguing that an ad cannot create demand and value.

 

But it's NOT the Crow's first appearance. That is Caliber Presents #1.

So, Hulk 180 ISN'T the first appearance of Wolverine? Is that last panel an advertisement of sorts for the next issue? I will always believe 180 is his first appearance, and that will never change, but I'm with you on the gobbledygook's of the world. Not 1st appearances, but ads.

 

This is a pretty easy one. If Marvel had gone bankrupt and closed shop before printing 181, would we say a character named Wolverine never appeared in Marvel Comics? Of course not. He appeared in 180. Subsequent appearances can't change that.

[Jaydogrules]

It sounds to me like "certain people" have stocked up on (or only own) the much less desirable cameo and/or ad "appearances" of some characters and are upset that they aren't "worth" much (or anything) compared to the industry standard actual first appearances and/or first full appearances of the characters.

 

Everything RMA has said on this subject is 100% accurate.

 

-J.

[MrWeen]

It sounds to me like "certain people" have stocked up on (or only own) the much less desirable cameo and/or ad "appearances" of some characters and are upset that they aren't "worth" much (or anything) compared to the industry standard actual first appearances and/or first full appearances of the characters.

 

Everything RMA has said on this subject is 100% accurate.

 

-J.

 

I have repeatedly stated that my argument has nothing to do with the value of the books. You shouldn't confuse desirability with value. I have a lot of things in my collection that are worth little to others but everything to me.

[Jaydogrules]

It sounds to me like "certain people" have stocked up on (or only own) the much less desirable cameo and/or ad "appearances" of some characters and are upset that they aren't "worth" much (or anything) compared to the industry standard actual first appearances and/or first full appearances of the characters.

 

Everything RMA has said on this subject is 100% accurate.

 

-J.

 

I have repeatedly stated that my argument has nothing to do with the value of the books. You shouldn't confuse desirability with value. I have a lot of things in my collection that are worth little to others but everything to me.

 

Perhaps. However the "value" of the books is inextricably linked to their relative significance as decided (or perceived) by the market at large.

 

And the market has spoken.

 

-J.

[fastballspecial]

While I agree with the above the market is starting to change.

 

I am sure no one here can continue to argue that there is some stronger evidence that this trend will continue good or bad.

 

[MrWeen]

I still don't see how a preview that's intended to be in another publication or not matters. If Rick Grimes appears in Capes 1 then that's the first Rick Grimes no matter what it sells for. You really need to forget the monetary value of the thing and trust your eyes.

 

For arguments sake I'm willing to discount all ADs for a second and just look at excerpts of sequential art. Do we not see Rick Grimes in a sequential story for the first time in Capes/Agents 1?

Then you just conceded the argument, because previews are ads for the comic. They're marketing content.

 

I said for arguments sake.

 

I still firmly believe that ads can represents a first appearance but I understand that many around here disagree.

 

A preview like WD in Capes is another story. That's a first appearance of major characters.

 

No.

 

The problem is that when we are talking about making money off the WD.

 

No.

 

The market jumped on issue 1 because collectors were not knowledgeable of the preview.

 

No.

 

As we all know markets can take a long time to make the proper corrections. I believe RMA thinks I am trying to change the monetary value of a book like WD 1 in the marketplace and that is not true.

 

No.

 

(Nor do I care. I do not own, and have never owned, and likely never will own, a Walking Dead #1, and have absolutely no interest, beyond scholarly curiosity, in its monetary value.)

 

Besides at this point it's probably impossible for many valid reasons RMA states. I know it's hard for people who see comics as mostly a source of income to realize the importance of say a Rust 1 which prints Spawn in black and white for the first time or Superman Adv 4 which prints the cover to 5 but in black and white one month earlier or the plethora of others...

 

That's a specious argument.

 

Omega Men 2, ASM 359 and on an on. In a lot of these cases I even agree that a first comic book appearance should be should be WORTH more. Just don't tell me for decades a bunch of collectors and dealers use some arbitrary definition that RMA made up to suit his argument.

 

Nonsense.

 

It's not "my" definition, and it's not "my" argument. This "argument" existed long before I was BORN, and it wasn't an argument...everyone simply accepted it as fact. I can point you to literally decades of literature, starting with the Overstreet Price Guide, and moving on to CBG, the Comics Journal, and countless fanzines going back to the early 60's.

 

ADS are NOT "first appearances." They are advertisements for UPCOMING publications.

 

Can you point to any publication, anywhere in the entire history of comics, that makes a serious argument that ads represent actual appearances?

 

If you can...by all means, post it here.

 

But if you cannot....then do NOT call these definitions "made up" and "arbitrary" when they have been in existence since literally the beginning of comics fandom.

 

No one refers to Action Comics #12 (among others) as the first appearance of Batman.

 

No one refers to Daredevil #115 (among others) as the first appearance of Wolverine.

 

No one refers to Iron Fist #13 as the first appearance of Sabretooth.

 

It's only you Johnny-come-latelies that are trying to redefine terms that have been accepted for literally decades that are "making up" "arbitrary" definitions.

 

Let's stop being silly, now.

 

Again for arguments sake, I'll drop the idea that an AD can represent a first appearance ( what about Annihilation Conquest 6 though ) whatever, anyways....

 

You can answer no, no,no all you want but that doesn't make you correct. If we are talking about a preview of a book like Green Wake 7, Agents 1, House of Mystery Annual 1 or a single image of a character like Gwenpool who does NOT appear in the book beyond the cover I just don't see how you can argue against those examples as first appearances. Again they not be worth more that what the market has incorrectly deemed to be the first appearance ( see X-Factor 24 as a example ) but an error by the large collecting community doesn't change facts.

 

We can disagree RMA but your definition only serves your argument and does not represent the truth. If we can't decide on a universal definition they we should go with the literal definition. That doesn't mean that Hulk 181 cannot be worth more than 180. All it means is that 181 cannot be called a first appearance.

"It's only you Johnny-come-latelies that are trying to redefine terms that have been accepted for literally decades that are "making up" "arbitrary" definitions."

 

As far as this statement it's not wise to make assumptions when you know nothing about me. I'm the only one arguing against you so it is directed at me. First off my definition isn't arbitrary at all. In fact it is quite clear: Wherever a character first appears in a printed publication, then that's the first appearance.

 

As for the rest of your laughable statement, I have been collecting comics for over 30 years. I don't think that qualifies me as a "Johnny-come-lately.

 

Just curious though, what do you think about Gwenpool. Is Deadpool's Secret Secret Wars 2 variant her first appearance or are you going against the marketplace and sticking with your definition of what a first appearance is?

 

Edited October 9, 2015 by MrWeen

[the authority]

While I agree with the above the market is starting to change.

 

I am sure no one here can continue to argue that there is some stronger evidence that this trend will continue good or bad.

 

 

You're right, the market has changed a lot since we were kids. Can you imagine 2nd prints bringing more than 1st prints when we were young ? Look at what is happening with Man of Steel/ Doomsday later printings on Captain Marvel #17. In the past, I wouldn't have thought about buying a 2nd print other than a TPB, and still wouldn't for me. That doesn't mean they won't be picked up for someone else who will appreciate them. A few Batman:TDKR 2nd and 3rd prints were just picked up due to other's buying preferences. I'm a 1st print guy all the way but I'm open minded too.