Fantastic Four reboot is already screwed up...

[Prince Namor]

Have you seen The Incredibles?

 

I have... what's your point?

 

Wow, is that an act?

 

So, you have no point? Are you presuming that the mere existence of "The Incredibles" somehow validates a point you have yet to make?

 

Because The Incredibles was basically a retelling of the FF?

 

Was it? I don't remember it being set in the Marvel Universe, for starters...

 

Does it just take four people with superpowers to constitute a "retelling" of the FF story for you? If so, you should have no problem with a black Human Torch...

 

Yes, I don't understand this either. If Logan somehow managed to become enamored with all of the changes that the Incredibles made to the Fantastic Four and views it as "basically a retelling of the FF," why would he have such a problem with the minor change of Johnny Storm's race? I rather agree with him that the Incredibles is a great FF-like story--yet if you can enjoy that, what the heck does it really matter if they change something as minor as Johnny Storm's race?

 

Still thinking that changing Johnny's race is SIGNIFICANTLY less minor to some people than others.

 

So you have no problem if they make his character a homosexual as well?

 

Wow, you're just bigoted in every conceivable way, aren't you?

 

You have no clue what you're talking about.

 

You should feel lucky, it's only your first time. I've been called racist three times and against family (?) once Plus I've endured passive aggressive lobs thrown my way and had to suffer being lied about constantly.

 

Yeah it's pretty silly. Our position has nothing to do with any kind of intolerance for other human beings. I'd see a Black Panther or Luke Cage movie in a heartbeat. Love the idea that Hollywood might do that and I think it'd show their true support of idea of fairness much more so than changing the ethnicity of one character in a movie full of Caucasians.

What I wouldn't tolerate is making Luke Cage something he isn't.

I wonder how many of these same people would support a Jon Stewart Green Lantern played by John Cho. Would it be okay to take those liberties with the story?

 

[slym2none]

Yeah it's pretty silly. Our position has nothing to do with any kind of intolerance for other human beings. I'd see a Black Panther or Luke Cage movie in a heartbeat. Love the idea that Hollywood might do that and I think it'd show their true support of idea of fairness much more so than changing the ethnicity of one character in a movie full of Caucasians.

What I wouldn't tolerate is making Luke Cage something he isn't.

I wonder how many of these same people would support a Jon Stewart Green Lantern played by John Cho. Would it be okay to take those liberties with the story?

 

Don't forget the people who say "it isn't the same" when you reverse the claim of race-bias:

 

Me, sarcastically: "Why not have Bradley Cooper play The Black Panther?, If he's right for the role..."

 

Them: "Having a white guy play T'Challa isn't the same!"

 

Me:

 

 

 

-slym

[Prince Namor]

Yeah it's pretty silly. Our position has nothing to do with any kind of intolerance for other human beings. I'd see a Black Panther or Luke Cage movie in a heartbeat. Love the idea that Hollywood might do that and I think it'd show their true support of idea of fairness much more so than changing the ethnicity of one character in a movie full of Caucasians.

What I wouldn't tolerate is making Luke Cage something he isn't.

I wonder how many of these same people would support a Jon Stewart Green Lantern played by John Cho. Would it be okay to take those liberties with the story?

 

Don't forget the people who say "it isn't the same" when you reverse the claim of race-bias:

 

Me, sarcastically: "Why not have Bradley Cooper play The Black Panther?, If he's right for the role..."

 

Them: "Having a white guy play T'Challa isn't the same!"

 

Me:

 

 

 

-slym

 

I don't get it either.

A lot of successful black movies and especially the smaller budgeted ones get funded outside of the Hollywood inner circle (Spike Lee had to go to Bill Cosby, Oprey Winfrey and Magic Johnson to finish Malcolm X), so to portray the mainstream movie industry as sympathetic to the issue is absurd.

Once again, it goes back to marketing for money's sake, and once that becomes the primary focus, instead of just making the best movie that can be made, I find it to be compromised.

I certainly refuse to be a part of the Politcally Correct herd mentality in order to prove anything to anyone.

 

[dupont2005]

The Human Torch is really a robot

[dupont2005]

Okay, a black Human Torch is not the same as a white Black Panther for the following reasons.

 

The Human Torch's origin and background aren't based on ethnicity. Sure, he's Sue's brother. Back when he was created in the 60's that would imply they were the same race, since interracial marriages were illegal and little Sue wouldn't have even been drinking from the same fountain as a black kid. But considering a reboot, where Johnny Storm isn't nearing 70 years old, it's reasonable for there to be interracial families, interracial adoptions, and families with step children from earlier relationships. Whatever, it doesn't matter. He's a human torch. Do you really consider it jumping the shark when the cast of magical beings powered by gamma rays have a little variety in their family tree? Black Panther on the other hand was created with ethnicity in mind. He's the chief of an African tribe. Changing his ethnicity actually changes the character.

 

On top of that, look at the ratio of black characters to white ones in Marvel comics. Especially their iconic founding comics from the 60's. How about black supporting characters even? Not many are there? That's because people used to be racist, and now a smaller portion of people are. The rest won't mess their pants at a colored person appearing in their moving pictures.

 

"But it changes the character! He's always been like this, not like that!"

Human Torch was a robot.

 

Why is it okay for Batman to change from this

 

to this

 

But people won't lose their mess over it unless he changes to this?

 

How many people have been in the Batman costume? The Captain America costume? The Spiderman costume? Why is that never a problem unless the guy is black? "Because Captain America is always white! He doesn't have to be Steve Rogers, but it he has to always be a white guy!"

[slym2none]

We aren't talking about "taking over." Hell, Rhodey was Iron Man for a while, not Tony Stark. And I certainly don't have a problem with that. But Tony Stark was IM first. Had they put James Rhodes as IM first, that would be a "problem." Had Hollywood put Reed Richards as IM first, that would be a problem. Had they put Stane as IM first, that would be a problem.

 

BRUCE WAYNE was Batman first. Steve Rogers was Captain America first. If you are going to re-tell the ORIGIN of a character then that character should be as the origin tells. If a FF movie wants to use She-Hulk as their muscle, that is fine, but Jennifer Rogers shouldn't be the one going up to space with the family & Reed to get her powers.

 

And the FF's Human Torch was never a robot, that was a different character.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[dupont2005]

We aren't talking about "taking over." Hell, Rhodey was Iron Man for a while, not Tony Stark. And I certainly don't have a problem with that. But Tony Stark was IM first.

 

BRUCE WAYNE was Batman first. Steve Rogers was Captain America first. If you are going to re-tell the ORIGIN of a character then that character should be as the origin tells. If a FF movie wants to use She-Hulk as their muscle, that is fine, but Jennifer Rogers shouldn't be the one going up to space with the family & Reed to get her powers.

 

And the FF's Human Torch was never a robot, that was a different character.

 

 

 

 

-slym

Should it be a period piece then? Set in 1961?

"That was a different character"

Owned by the same company, appearing alongside Namor and Captain America?

What are the odds that gamma rays would do exactly that to another guy fifteen years later, and the other guy to be called the same exact thing? And then where did the robot one go? Oh , now we're in that part of super hero comics that makes them a major confusing turnoff to the general public, which is exactly what the movies don't want to do.

 

I could see the argument if it were an origin retelling within the same title, like how Batman's origin must have been repeated fifteen times in the pages of Batman and Detective (first series of both) over the years. But a reboot, especially a cross media reboot, I figure all bets are off. Origin stories have been altered heavily in movies before, but as long as everyone stays white there's no uproar.

[slym2none]

No, because times change, but the aspect of the character does not. There was talk of Sue Richards no longer acting like a mousy housewife. That is because 1)she grew as a character and 2) times changed. Comic book characters don't age the same rate but they have to grow and adapt with the times.

 

I have yet to see one human being actually change race to "adapt with the times." I have yet to see a grown human being grow a foot just to "adapt with the times" (Wolverine.) I have yet to see a character's age DECREASE, just to "adapt with the times (Rogue.)

 

I want to see a black Human Torch as much as I want to see a white Shang-Chi, or an Asian Reed Richards, or a Middle-Eastern Captain America.

 

It isn't because I don't like any of those ethnicities.

 

It is because that isn't who the character is.

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

re: your edit

 

What are the odds of four different people being exposed to gamma rays all getting powers, and not one getting cancer? There is a line at the level of "suspension of disbelief" that we to draw. Superman can fly, sure, but how does he fly faster? Just put his arms out more? I don't question that, but if there was a totally unrecognisable person in the blue&red outfit with cape, I am going to question it.

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

You keep editing your original post. Just respond in sequence, please...

 

...and keep painting me and people who think like me about these movies as racist. It really becomes you.

 

*sigh*

 

 

 

-slym

[dupont2005]

What does skin color have to do with Batman? He's a wealthy orphan who fights crime. In 1939 that pretty much meant he had to be white, but today it doesn't. If there was a reboot, why not? The essence of the character is not in his ethnicity. The same can be said for most super heroes these days. Ironically, not the non-white ones quite as often, because any character that wasn't default white was BROTHERMAN or CHINAMAN or some other spin off their ethnicity. Not just a regular guy with a superpower who happened to not be white. That would have been unheard of around the time Marvel was founded. Especially a hero! There's examples today sure, over the years Marvel and DC have added to their roster and included non white characters who aren't caricatures of their ethnicity. Maybe there's even a Native character who doesn't get his powers from the magic of Manabozho. Radioactive spiders can bite non whites too after all. But those characters aren't iconic, just like the white characters that were introduced in the last 25 years. Nobody wants to see a movie about them. They want to see The Avengers. They want to see Batman.

[dupont2005]

re: your edit

 

What are the odds of four different people being exposed to gamma rays all getting powers, and not one getting cancer? There is a line at the level of "suspension of disbelief" that we to draw.

So that's believable, but Sue having a black brother isn't. Gotcha.

[slym2none]

OK, you win. My opinion is wrong, vile, and evil. I am a racist and a . I only want my comic-based movie people to be white.

 

(－‸ლ)

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

re: your edit

 

What are the odds of four different people being exposed to gamma rays all getting powers, and not one getting cancer? There is a line at the level of "suspension of disbelief" that we to draw.

So that's believable, but Sue having a black brother isn't. Gotcha.

 

Because she never had a black brother. Why is that so difficult to believe?

 

Also, nice selective edit.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[dupont2005]

When only the mouth and jaw is visible, how "unrecognizable" could a black Cap possibly be?

 

I know, there would be an insane uproar over that though.

[dupont2005]

re: your edit

 

What are the odds of four different people being exposed to gamma rays all getting powers, and not one getting cancer? There is a line at the level of "suspension of disbelief" that we to draw.

So that's believable, but Sue having a black brother isn't. Gotcha.

 

Because she never had a black brother. Why is that so difficult to believe?

 

Also, nice selective edit.

 

 

 

 

-slym

It's a reboot. She also wasn't transformed into a super hero in 2013.

[dupont2005]

Tell me how the character of Johnny Storm changes when a black actor portrays him in a movie?

[slym2none]

Your argument and mine are totally different, obviously.

 

As I mentioned before: I don't want to see a white Shang-Chi, Master Of Kung-Fu. I don't want to see an Asian T'Challa, no matter how recognisable the Black Panther suit is. The people in the suit is what matters. And I want to see the person I have always known in that suit.

 

I also notice that in every example you gave above about others wearing the famous suit, whatever it may be, it always ends up back on the person that started wearing it. Steve Rogers is BACK to being Captain America. Peter Parker returned to being Spider Man after Ben Reilly played his part. Tony Stark is still IM. And Bruce Wayne is Batman again. I wonder why that is...

 

(hint: it isn't because they are white.)

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

re: your edit

 

What are the odds of four different people being exposed to gamma rays all getting powers, and not one getting cancer? There is a line at the level of "suspension of disbelief" that we to draw.

So that's believable, but Sue having a black brother isn't. Gotcha.

 

Because she never had a black brother. Why is that so difficult to believe?

 

Also, nice selective edit.

 

It's a reboot. She also wasn't transformed into a super hero in 2013.

 

If we put her as getting her powers in the 60's, no one would go see the movie because no one wants to see a 70-year old super hero. Time is variable in their dimension, you can't use that. If that's the case, we can't even have these movies, as Bruce Wayne would be long dead. BUT, there is already a case for the time-distortion, otherwise we wouldn't have the comics still, either.

 

 

 

-slym

[Prince Namor]

It's really simple.

If they do an Ultimate Spider-man movie, with a character playing him by name of Miles Morales (who in the comic is black), but they decide to use a white actor because 'he's perfect for the part', I would yell foul just as much because, even though his ethnicity doesnt have ANYTHING to do with the character, it wouldn't be the same as what was created in the comic.