2013 August 1 - 2 Heritage Comics Signature Auction

[Weird Paper]

I would say much of Miller's Sin City stuff is better art than the DKR cover, but I realize that is not the only component to its value. I get that DKR was the high water mark for a generation of collectors, so I understand that aspect.

In terms of aesthetics alone, though, the appeal is lost on me, but I get that that's in no way a majority opinion. To me, lower-tier Frazettas will always hold more appeal than the best Miller or McFarlane, but that's just me (and my small horde of curmudgeons.)

I have bought art in what I consider to be a "value vacuum." (Non-comic) art by unknown artists that I have purchased purely for aesthetic value and with no eye toward a future return. When I consider purchasing a piece of comic art, I do consider the value component (how safe a harbor is it for my money in the long term). But, the true determinant of my aggression in pursuing something is simply "do I like it?" Liking it is primarily aesthetic, but also includes some nostalgia, sense of history, etc.

I enjoyed DKR when it came out. It coincided with me returning to the world of comics after a few years off being a dirt poor college student. It was a good read. But its value to me would not be anywhere near commensurate with its value in the marketplace. It wouldn't matter if my budget was 1k or 750k.

[Bronty]

Hi, I can understand that, of course. Similarly I doubt I will ever own pages by John Buscema or Jim Lee. I know that they are very well regarded within the generation that grew up with them, but I didn't like Jim Lee's art when it first came out, and I don't like it now. John's work I was reading after the fact, but it always left me cold.

 

Point is, we all have our artists that we don't appreciate to the same level the market does. There's nothing wrong with that - the reason they make both chocolate and vanilla and so on.

 

And, the more 'idiosyncratic' someone's style, the more polarized the opinions will be. People will love or hate guys Miller that have really unique styles. Does anyone really 'hate' the art of someone like Jim Aparo, that's more middle of the road in terms of style?

[lb jefferies]

I just don't think you can make that comparison Roger. First, in a "value vacuum" very little comic oa (very little fine art for that matter too) would have value. The possibility of selling an asset for value down the road increases the value of most any asset, that's just economics. Take the exit possibility away and you devalue most any asset whether its a stock, a nugget of gold, a Frazetta, a Miller, your house.

 

Secondly, everything about the evolution of the comic art (and comic book for that matter) markets the last 15 years since the dawn of the internet has pointed towards the upwards revaluation of key and/or grail pieces. The Frazetta is nice, but even its biggest fans wouldn't place it near the top of his his oeuvre. No one would suggest it is as desirable as the ones that sold for 1 and 1.5m, let alone something really big like Death Dealer.

 

When it comes to Miller, his best known projects are Sin City, Dark Knight, Daredevil and maybe some honorable mentions like Ronin and 300. Of those, Dark Knight had the most impact. Of all the Dark Knight pages, I think a lot of Miller fans would pick the cover of #1 or the cover of #2 as the single page they'd want most. For my part, of all the pages of his career this is the one I'd want most. Of all the pages in the 1980s, this is the one I'd want the most, and I'm sure I'm not alone (although with all of the hundreds of choices in 'the field' obviously any choice would be a minority choice). You just can't say similar things about the Frazetta cover. In short, this is a true Miller grail and a true 80s grail and the Frazetta at auction does not hold a comparable place in Frazetta's career.

 

Again, grails have been revalued upwards for years in both comics and comic oa. So possibly the very best Miller is going to sell for more than a better-than-average Frazetta - that's just today's market and you can substitute any two artists of somewhat comparable stature in that sentence and still have it be true.

 

I understand that you don't like the cover and that's totally fine. But you can't lose sight of the fact that this is Miller's equivalent of something like Death Dealer. Or if the discussion was in the context of kirby, the AF15 cover or FF1 cover.

 

And why is that? Because, in comic OA and I would argue in fine art too, context means everything. If that exact same piece of art is a random batman cover, or inside cover, to an issue he neither wrote nor drew, its worth a fraction of what its worth. If we imagine it as an image of a Spartan warrior from 300, its not worth what its worth. But its not a random batman cover. Its not a piece from 300. Its the cover of one of the biggest comics of the 1980s. And its possibly the most desirable page of an artist that, like him or not, has a lot of stature in the field.

 

If you like Miller, and granted not everyone does, this is simply as good as it gets.

 

 

Well said!

[jbud73]

I was having a discussion the other day regarding OA art and comparable sales. I've always been a proponent that the "there can be only one" idea is something to be avoided when making Comic OA purchases in general, however once in a while that concept must be observed. The DKR cover may be one of those instances.

 

IMO you must view this art in a 'Miller vacuum' if you will in order to understand the valuation. Meaning that if you do not appreciate Miller art then the price will never be understood. For the record any line art that sells for more than the WSF29 shocks me that Miller could have two sucks sales makes me go I cannot rationalize that in any context and I am in my late 30s, a Copper Kid and stared at DKR 1 with awe and wonder on the stacks, remember stores posting big SOLD OUT of DKR 2 and DKR 3 signs.

 

That said, when you take Miller in a vacuum the context begins to shift. DKR revolutionized one of the most important pop icons of the 20th century, is Miller's most important work - I mean it made Batman more popular than Superman. It spawned the 1989 Movie which led to the birth of the modern Super hero movie franchise. It may be the most important event in comic book history after the creation of Superman and Action 1.

 

So if the Cover to DKR 2 is the best of the four covers in terms of amount of line art, then the context of its valuation is almost pointless. There are no OA reference points, or their factoring is diminished due to factors outside the actual art and are instead tied to what the cover represents.

 

Personally the cover really doesn't do anything for me in terms of appeal, the published cover to DKR #1 was so awe inspiring that when I say the Cover to 2 as a kid I remember wondering if it was a 2nd print or something. But, as the DKR 1 cover really doesn't have much art to it and has never been up for auction, I can understand the importance of the Cover to #2 being at Heritage.

 

[Weird Paper]

For the record any line art that sells for more than the WSF29 shocks me that Miller could have two sucks sales makes me go

Yeah, that part. I've come to understand that the universe does not line up orderly and logically. The best of something doesn't usually become the most successful, etc. And I get all the arguments for pumping this cover up, I really do. It just doesn't smell right.

If money were not an issue, would you rather have the Miller at, say, 650K, or the equivalent in other art from any other Heritage auctions? Would you opt for the Miller? Me, I could find enough in any given catalog that I'd rather have, but I'm probably in the minority.

[Bronty]

For the record any line art that sells for more than the WSF29 shocks me that Miller could have two sucks sales makes me go

Yeah, that part. I've come to understand that the universe does not line up orderly and logically. The best of something doesn't usually become the most successful, etc. And I get all the arguments for pumping this cover up, I really do. It just doesn't smell right.

If money were not an issue, would you rather have the Miller at, say, 650K, or the equivalent in other art from any other Heritage auctions? Would you opt for the Miller? Me, I could find enough in any given catalog that I'd rather have, but I'm probably in the minority.

 

^ That's just not relevant though? Assuming it sells, basically everyone except the bidder and underbidder would take the equivalent money in different art. But that's no comment on the value of the piece. Let's just step back a bit and pretend this is a $5k piece by any number of modern artists whose pieces sell for that much. 99.99% of the time (and that may be conservative!) I'd take the equivalent money in different art.

 

The winning bidder more or less by definition prizes it more than everyone else.

 

Since you mentioned the WSF 29 cover - I could certainly find $450k in other art I'd rather have than that piece. Might be a different frazetta in there plus who knows what else. For me, and I know this will sound like sacrilege to you, but to me its far from his best. I've spoken before about how I really dislike the unrealistic spatial relationships on that cover. The charging caveman is holding his club so high and is so close to buck that his swing will miss Buck by a mile. The fact that he's charging at all on so small a ledge is problematic (he'd never be able to pick up enough speed in that small a space). There are all sort of things that personally bug me about that cover and its not one I'd touch for the money involved.

 

So even to someone like me that loves frazetta's work, mileage will vary, and almost every time, one can look at X piece and $X say that we'd theoretically 'rather have' piece Y. Unless we're the winning bidder, we'd rather have something else for the money.

[vodou]

I love Miller's DKR2 cover. Easily the only Miller piece I'd ever 'need'. Done with one.

Of course it's largely a matter of opinion, but all the negative noise I've seen posted here on this piece...all noise to me.

But unlike everyone else here...I hate DKR

Many times (many, many over the last 26 years) I've tried to read this story and cannot get through it. Ugh. Unreadable. Genius to everybody, it seems, but me. And life goes on...

But the cover ART is something else, a thing of beauty, and I think we'll see $700k+ inclusive of premium. And yes, a new public $ record.

 

And I completely disagree with this statement, "The winning bidder more or less by definition prizes it more than everyone else."

 

Liquidity comes and goes, like the ebb and flow of the tides. Timing is often everything. Had I known one year ago this piece was coming, I would have made the moves required to get top dollar for enough pieces to take it down. But no, I won't firesale three times as much 'value' over 60 days to do the same. That would have been imprudent to say the least. Understanding this and sitting on the sidelines has nothing to do with my level of prizing

[Bronty]

Btw Roger, I hope it doesn't sound like I am being argumentative. I understand where you're coming from. I just think when the numbers get big we kind of fixate on the specific number as it relates to us, which isn't necessarily relevant to the price. Trust me, I know what you mean, I've been there myself where I've had a lack of appreciation of something that sold for a lot of dough, and found myself fixating on the disconnect between its value and its value to me.

 

Usually when we try and take something to the extreme we go up the chain, but in this case I think its more instructive to go way down the chain. Consider it was a random $5k piece by an artist you don't care for. Wouldn't you feel the exact same way as you do with this miller cover? I see lots of $5k pieces that I personally wouldn't pay $1k for (resale opportunities excepted).

[Bronty]

 

And I completely disagree with this statement, "The winning bidder more or less by definition prizes it more than everyone else."

 

well that's precisely why I qualified the statement. Look, I can have $4 to my name and prize it above the virgin mary but unless I have the bucks to pay for it, it aint gonna be mine.

 

Of the people ready, willing, and able to purchase any particular piece, the winning bidder has shown that they'd sacrifice the largest $ amount of potential other purchase alternatives, in order to fund this specific purchase. Perhaps 'prizing' it wasn't the best choice of words but the point was made in the course of my general discussion that almost all of us have alternatives we'd prefer to any specific potential purchase that one cares to name.

 

[vodou]

Still completely disagree Bronty.

 

Give this a run - The Limits of Game Theory - and then come back. My response is that my $700k of illiquid firesaled art is actually more 'prizing' than another's $700k pulled out of their money market account (assuming it isn't their last $700k). It may just be that those with less actually appreciate (or prize) more!

 

Anybody want to argue that Fishler prizes that record McASM cover more than anybody else? No. He just paid more to Heritage than anybody else. One could better say that he prizes the cash not at all! Which is completely different. I'd argue he doesn't prize the McASM at all in a vacuum (as art, the prize -such as it is- is in something else altogether...notoriety, reeling in whales...etc?) Just bounce around his CAF a little, the vintage material is probably closer to what Fishler 'prizes'.

[Bronty]

OK this is getting stupid , we're arguing over semantics here. I did say ready, able and willing - having to have a fire sale is not that - in your case as you said you were not 'willing' to take the pain that would have resulted in.

 

And I very much doubt Fishler bought that piece for himself.

 

You're focussing on the specific word I chose (fine - not the best choice) rather than the point I made... which was that of COURSE roger would rather have, say, 650k in other art. Almost all of us would. And that as such, his preference of another 'basket' of comparably priced art was no reflection on the value of this piece.

 

You, on the other hand, would appear to prefer this piece over a 650k basket in other art - and that's really great, but you're probably the exception, even among miller fans.

 

As an example, I'd rather take this piece (IMO the most significant sin city piece) and have a whole lot left over to play with. Naturally, I much prefer the dk2 cover to this sin city cover, but there would *presumably* be SO much left over to play with.....

 

[vodou]

You, on the other hand, would appear to prefer this piece over a 650k basket in other art - and that's really great, but you're probably the exception, even among miller fans.

It's not stupid because we're still not speaking the same language - I'm not talking about baskets or prices. I'd very much like the art, but I won't sneak into Heritage and steal it the night before the sale. That's what I'm talking about, sacrifices (in that case of freedom -the rarest of all 'assets'- if convicted and jailed).

[Bronty]

I'm going to pm you.

[Hekla]

ha! sweet avatar

 

+1

 

I went to Cadence looking for it last week

[Weird Paper]

OK this is getting stupid , we're arguing over semantics here. I did say ready, able and willing - having to have a fire sale is not that - in your case as you said you were not 'willing' to take the pain that would have resulted in.

 

And I very much doubt Fishler bought that piece for himself.

 

You're focussing on the specific word I chose (fine - not the best choice) rather than the point I made... which was that of COURSE roger would rather have, say, 650k in other art. Almost all of us would. And that as such, his preference of another 'basket' of comparably priced art was no reflection on the value of this piece.

 

You, on the other hand, would appear to prefer this piece over a 650k basket in other art - and that's really great, but you're probably the exception, even among miller fans.

 

As an example, I'd rather take this piece (IMO the most significant sin city piece) and have a whole lot left over to play with. Naturally, I much prefer the dk2 cover to this sin city cover, but there would *presumably* be SO much left over to play with.....

 

No worries on the argumentative thing. I always enjoy a spirited disagreement. I'm with you on the SC piece. To me, it's probably the best mature Miller piece. I might actually prefer a good DD cover, but that's a different era entirely, style-wise. Truthfully, I rarely even consider pursuing a Miller piece simply because, to me, the price v personal value just isn't there.

As far as whether Fishler values the McSpidyHulk as a collector, who can say? I believe he values his fantastic collection of art in that regard. As to that specific piece??? I would bet that Halperin values his WSF cover in that regard. But if you think about it, when that piece sold for a record price, there was not the hobby-wide shock that followed Fishler's purchase, because the WSF was considered by many (including myself) to be the single greatest piece of comic book art ever. I've never heard that said about a McFarlane or Miller piece.

[Bronty]

(thumbs u

[ashrael]

Since you mentioned the WSF 29 cover - I could certainly find $450k in other art I'd rather have than that piece. Might be a different frazetta in there plus who knows what else. For me, and I know this will sound like sacrilege to you, but to me its far from his best. I've spoken before about how I really dislike the unrealistic spatial relationships on that cover. The charging caveman is holding his club so high and is so close to buck that his swing will miss Buck by a mile. The fact that he's charging at all on so small a ledge is problematic (he'd never be able to pick up enough speed in that small a space). There are all sort of things that personally bug me about that cover and its not one I'd touch for the money involved.

 

So even to someone like me that loves frazetta's work, mileage will vary, and almost every time, one can look at X piece and $X say that we'd theoretically 'rather have' piece Y. Unless we're the winning bidder, we'd rather have something else for the money.

 

Come on, the WSF 29 cover was only $380k

 

We all have different opinions on what is worth what, but he spatial relationship of the cavemen never bothered me since, well, they are cavemen and are not known for their intelligence

[jjonahjameson1]

A bit surprised noone's talking about the EC covers in this auction. There's some nice ones, but the Wally Wood cover is gorgeous!

[lb jefferies]

A bit surprised noone's talking about the EC covers in this auction. There's some nice ones, but the Wally Wood cover is gorgeous!

 

That piece has always been one of my least favorites of his EC covers. (That said, it's Wally Wood - his worst piece is better than 99% of my collection).

 

However, I LOVE the Atom Bomb story that's in the auction. I urge everyone to go on and look at the large scans of each page. Amazing stuff.

 

 

[stinkininkin]

A bit surprised noone's talking about the EC covers in this auction. There's some nice ones, but the Wally Wood cover is gorgeous!

 

That piece has always been one of my least favorites of his EC covers. (That said, it's Wally Wood - his worst piece is better than 99% of my collection).

 

However, I LOVE the Atom Bomb story that's in the auction. I urge everyone to go on and look at the large scans of each page. Amazing stuff.

 

 

Agreed. Other than the DK cover, the Atom Bomb story might be the prize of the auction.

 

Scott