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THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB
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Started by HarveySwick,

14,484 posts in this topic

SC22

SC22

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, SupergirlDC19591 said:

Seriously....

Seller's Grading Comments: Streaks on upper portion of book are from camera

Come on where talking about 75 000$ get some professional images this is 1/3 the price of a average house (here where I live anyway if you add the 33% conversion rate).

I bet you if he was the buyer he would require better images himself so why not offer the same when trying to sell it!!

Glad to see he update his images.

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lou_fine

lou_fine

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SupergirlDC19591 said:
1 hour ago, Gotham Kid said:

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?id=707103

 

?

Not sure what the question mark is for?

As per previous post below, there were a total of 5 complete AF 15's on sale today, along with another 2 graded as NG since they were wraps only:

 

3 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Hard to tell since there were a total of 5 complete copies in CC's auction today, with the first 3 apparently doing very well and the last 2, probably not so much due to their associated issues. 

As usual on the boards here, virtually all of the attention is focused on the good news, while the not so good news is usally simply ignored or swept under the rug.  Listed below id the link for the fifth copy of AF 15 graded at CGC 3.0 and also sold through CC today:

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?referral=EAlist&id=708386&title=AMAZINGFANTASY

I assume collectors in this marketplace must really dislike Stan's signature as this copy sold for just a bit over guide, while the first 3 copies all sold for multiples to guide.  Well, it still did better than the 8.5 graded copy with Stan's signature that went for $20K under guide at Heritage.  Of course, the book sold for double that amount a few months later once CGC got hold of the book and removed the note on the label about the book having Stan's signature in it.

A word of advice, if you have a AF 15 sitting in your collection, do not get Stan to sign it since this could do serious potential damage to your wallet.  :gossip:  lol

Edited by lou_fine
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SC22

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Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Not sure what the question mark is for?

As per previous post below, there were a total of 5 complete AF 15's on sale today, along with another 2 graded as NG since they were wraps only:

 

As usual on the boards here, virtually all of the attention is focused on the good news, while the not so good news is usally simply ignored or swept under the rug.  Listed below id the link for the fifth copy of AF 15 graded at CGC 3.0 and also sold through CC today:

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?referral=EAlist&id=708386&title=AMAZINGFANTASY

I assume collectors in this marketplace must really dislike Stan's signature as this copy sold for just a bit over guide, while the first 3 copies all sold for multiples to guide.  Well, it still did better than the 8.5 graded copy with Stan's signature that went for $20K under guide at Heritage.  Of course, the book sold for double that amount a few months later once CGC got hold of the book and removed the note on the label about the book having Stan's signature in it.

A word of advice, if you have a AF 15 sitting in your collection, do not get Stan to sign it since this could do serious potential damage to your wallet.  :gossip:  lol

I simply wanted to know why he posted that link. I was just curious is all.....I thought maybe there was something he was trying to point out but I know nothing about CGC green labels.

Edited by SupergirlDC19591
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lou_fine

lou_fine

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, SupergirlDC19591 said:

I simply wanted to know why he posted that link. I was just curious is all.

Probably because everybody here is talking about the AF 15 auctions earlier today on CC, and his link was to another copy that had not yet been mentioned to that point in time. 

Most likely just for reference or informational purposes for those boardies who had deleted their email messages and no longer had access to the completed CC auctions.  (thumbsu

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Gotham Kid

Gotham Kid

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

As usual on the boards here, virtually all of the attention is focused on the good news, while the not so good news is usally simply ignored or swept under the rug.

^^

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Gotham Kid

Gotham Kid

Posted
Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, SupergirlDC19591 said:

I simply wanted to know why he posted that link. I was just curious is all.....I thought maybe there was something he was trying to point out but I know nothing about CGC green labels.

Nothing to do with Green, Blue, Orange or Pink label. This is after all the AF15 thread, is it not ? Or do we only discuss Blue labels and record sales ?  :makepoint:

Link to an affordable AF15 for those that might be interested in a copy without dropping a small fortune.

Edited by Gotham Kid
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Jordysnordy

Jordysnordy

Posted
Posted

Like many others around here, I have been closely following the feeding frenzy around AF recently, especially in the higher grades. I think most around here tend to attribute these very high prices due to the books being "improvable". As naïve as this will sound (and I've played it over in my head before typing this out) what are the chances that some people are actually just trying to buy high grade copies to keep very long term and not CPR then for a quick profit, that some people are willing to pony up to buy beautiful copies because they just love the book? Maybe slim but I believe some still do buy for the love of the hobby, even over paying to get the 'right" copy.

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NoMan

NoMan

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, Jordysnordy said:

Like many others around here, I have been closely following the feeding frenzy around AF recently, especially in the higher grades. I think most around here tend to attribute these very high prices due to the books being "improvable". As naïve as this will sound (and I've played it over in my head before typing this out) what are the chances that some people are actually just trying to buy high grade copies to keep very long term and not CPR then for a quick profit, that some people are willing to pony up to buy beautiful copies because they just love the book? Maybe slim but I believe some still do buy for the love of the hobby, even over paying to get the 'right" copy.

yup

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zhamlau

zhamlau

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, Jordysnordy said:

Like many others around here, I have been closely following the feeding frenzy around AF recently, especially in the higher grades. I think most around here tend to attribute these very high prices due to the books being "improvable". As naïve as this will sound (and I've played it over in my head before typing this out) what are the chances that some people are actually just trying to buy high grade copies to keep very long term and not CPR then for a quick profit, that some people are willing to pony up to buy beautiful copies because they just love the book? Maybe slim but I believe some still do buy for the love of the hobby, even over paying to get the 'right" copy.

I think though if you look at prices for the book from 2014 to now, a very consistent 60-75% increase has occurred on this book and the prices we are seeing are only slightly above that percentages. I called the 9.0 going to 340-360+ not because it was an upgrade candidate but that it would be at least 75% over the 191 sale from 214 but would still need to fall under the recent sale. I didn't think upgrade at all, that book looked like it was in the right grade and someone even pointed out that it had enough wear to make it hard in theory to move to 9.2 or higher. Add into the fact that books over 8.0 are super rare you get that extra bump over 75% (that was my theory anyway).

The story is clear I think. Clean unrestored blue label copies without marvel chipping are now being treated with a level of importance putting them head and shoulder above every other silver-age book and all but a handful of ultra key golden age books. It's on some level the most important collector comic book in the world to own and the buyers are treating it as such. Putting Stan's graph on it plays to a certain crowd, but that crowd isn't the one driving this "condition/historic significance" drive we are seeing. I think most people in the market for an AF15 with some money to spend would much rather not see Stan drawing on it. They don't want to see marvel chips, they don't want to see huge inch chunks out of it.  When you have that, the passion isn't there and thus the price wont match.

CGC might not be qualifying these books as having exceptional eye appeal, but the buyers clearly are. CGC isn't qualifying for having marvel chips, but the buyers clearly are. Your 4.5 with chips will sell significantly more than it did last year, no doubt. But dont expect it to fly like these current books did.

Heck, maybe its time for CGC to start treating Marvel Chipping like they do Tape, mentioned right on the label almost like a qualifier or hidden defect. Maybe also they add the "exceptional eye appeal" tag or star.

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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

The story is clear I think. Clean unrestored blue label copies without marvel chipping are now being treated with a level of importance putting them head and shoulder above every other silver-age book and all but a handful of ultra key golden age books. It's on some level the most important collector comic book in the world to own and the buyers are treating it as such. Putting Stan's graph on it plays to a certain crowd, but that crowd isn't the one driving this "condition/historic significance" drive we are seeing. I think most people in the market for an AF15 with some money to spend would much rather not see Stan drawing on it. They don't want to see marvel chips, they don't want to see huge inch chunks out of it.  When you have that, the passion isn't there and thus the price wont match.

What is clear is that copies with improvable qualities create the impression of a stronger market demand than if interior copies were being auctioned off.

All it takes is a little time and research to see what's happening.

As I said, many of the market surges that I remember for this book happened when an improvable copy lead the way. The CGC 3.0 didn't do poorly because of the signature. It did poorly because it had a chunk missing from the front cover.

SupergirlDC19591 asked what is happening to Hulk #1. A little research shows what happened to that book as well.

The Nov/Dec CC auction had a slew of Hulk #1 books in the auction, and almost all of them were inferior copies with tanning, COW pages, chipping, etc. Also, CC decided to auction a weaker copy first rather than the strongest CGC 8.5 go first. So an inferior CGC 7.0 or 7.5 tan, Cream pages copy led the way making a dismal auction price and then the CGC 8.5 copy (which really should have been the 1st copy to end) auctioned off the following day, setting a record price.  By then it was too late. The fugly Hulk #1s hit GPA making the book look weak. Which it isn't. Anybody who has been selling Hulk #1's in mid and higher grades knows the book is moving.

Same thing happened to DD #1 a few years ago. 3 copies of CGC 9.6 auctioned off at the same time. The weakest copy (tanning with OW pages) was the 1st to go. It went weak, scared off bidders in the other two auctions (or simply saturated the market) and it killed the CGC 9.6 DD #1 market.

With DD #1 still strong in lower grades, the market will recover but nothing affects an auction more than just a little bit of fear.

Or in the case of AF #15, some mania.

Edited by VintageComics
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G.A.tor

G.A.tor

Posted
Posted

I've been touting no mc , better eye appeal books for as long as I've been a reseller. That 5.0 looked better than many 7.0s. (Bc stains kept technical grade down). 

Mc copies will continue to lag behind non mc copies. They really always have , but the spreads were not as noticeable as they are in today's accelerated pricing. 

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Spiderturtle

Spiderturtle

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Posted
15 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

I've been touting no mc , better eye appeal books for as long as I've been a reseller. That 5.0 looked better than many 7.0s. (Bc stains kept technical grade down). 

Mc copies will continue to lag behind non mc copies. They really always have , but the spreads were not as noticeable as they are in today's accelerated pricing. 

+1, easily 30 percent gap b/t mc vs no mc copies

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zhamlau

zhamlau

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

What is clear is that copies with improvable qualities create the impression of a stronger market demand than if interior copies were being auctioned off.

All it takes is a little time and research to see what's happening.

As I said, many of the market surges that I remember for this book happened when an improvable copy lead the way. The CGC 3.0 didn't do poorly because of the signature. It did poorly because it had a chunk missing from the front cover.

SupergirlDC19591 asked what is happening to Hulk #1. A little research shows what happened to that book as well.

The Nov/Dec CC auction had a slew of Hulk #1 books in the auction, and almost all of them were inferior copies with tanning, COW pages, chipping, etc. Also, CC decided to auction a weaker copy first rather than the strongest CGC 8.5 go first. So an inferior CGC 7.0 or 7.5 tan, Cream pages copy led the way making a dismal auction price and then the CGC 8.5 copy (which really should have been the 1st copy to end) auctioned off the following day, setting a record price.  By then it was too late. The fugly Hulk #1s hit GPA making the book look weak. Which it isn't. Anybody who has been selling Hulk #1's in mid and higher grades knows the book is moving.

Same thing happened to DD #1 a few years ago. 3 copies of CGC 9.6 auctioned off at the same time. The weakest copy (tanning with OW pages) was the 1st to go. It went weak, scared off bidders in the other two auctions (or simply saturated the market) and it killed the CGC 9.6 DD #1 market.

With DD #1 still strong in lower grades, the market will recover but nothing affects an auction more than just a little bit of fear.

Or in the case of AF #15, some mania.

I see your point this isn't about an emerging new thought on this book and its pricing but instead solely based on regrading after improving, but It leads to some questions.

1. Are we sure all of these books can really be instantly no question improved dramatically by pressing and cleaning (and they they all haven't had that done already by someone)? Some people have said that 9.0 was right on target and wasn't exceptionally strong or with easily corrected flaws.

2. What grades than should the recent 9.2, 9.0, and 5.0 that have sold in the last few weeks get when this occurs? Specifically the 5.0 that sold 57,000. Are you saying the book could be pressed/cleaned (potentially for a 2nd time) to become a 6.5 or 7.0? When you pay 57k for a book based on the theory that it can be regraded higher, what grade do you need it to become to justify that price if that's the sole reason you did it?

3. A Voldy 8.5 sells 75k, is cracked and pressed and regraded by CGC to get...the same grade...and then promptly doubles in price. I find Tom Riddle grading to be within at least a grade if not less of CGC, so what caused the price increase if not a new dynamic in the respect/desire for this book? The seller did everything you said was driving these new higher prices and the grade didn't change, but the price still doubled. Why?

Not trying to be confrontational at all, but I am trying to understand your view and those were some questions I had.

Edited by zhamlau
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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Not trying to be confrontational at all, but I am trying to understand your view and those were some questions I had.

I don't take it as confrontational.

27 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

1. Are we sure all of these books can really be instantly no question improved dramatically by pressing and cleaning (and they they all haven't had that done already by someone)? Some people have said that 9.0 was right on target and wasn't exceptionally strong or with easily corrected flaws.

I spent a lot of time looking at the 9.0 in person and felt it had a shot at a 9.2 upgrade. I even tried to get a partner in on the book. They didn't free strongly about it (but hadn't seen the book in hand and didn't want to roll the dice). Whenever I see a price that is well outside where I feel it should be AND the book looks very good for the grade I am going to assume that other bidders felt it was an upgrade candidate. I've been doing this for long enough to feel confident about my position.

27 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

2. What grades than should the recent 9.2, 9.0, and 5.0 that have sold in the last few weeks get when this occurs? Specifically the 5.0 that sold 57,000. Are you saying the book could be pressed/cleaned (potentially for a 2nd time) to become a 6.5 or 7.0? When you pay 57k for a book based on the theory that it can be regraded higher, what grade do you need it to become to justify that price if that's the sole reason you did it?

That is going to depend on the price point and how much risk the bidders are willing to take and how many people think it will upgrade. If there is strong chance of improvement or the book is well watched then bidders will push the price up making potential margin smaller.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying EVERY book is upgradeable. But the copies that I have followed are either upgradeable or books that are upgradeable create a frenzied atmosphere were other books that are not upgradeable get driven up in price.

Another perfect example is Hulk #181. Last year Heritage auctioned off a CGC 9.6 copy. I looked at the book and thought had a shot at 9.8. I'm usually not around a computer on a Sunday night so I didn't bid. The book ended somewhere in the ball park of $8K. Sets a new GPA high and now all CGC 9.6 copies bump up. But I'd bet the house that someone was trying to buy that book to upgrade it but GPA and the market now feels that is the ballpark for a 9.6 copy.

27 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

3. A Voldy 8.5 sells 75k, is cracked and pressed and regraded by CGC to get...the same grade...and then promptly doubles in price. I find Tom Riddle grading to be within at least a grade if not less of CGC, so what caused the price increase if not a new dynamic in the respect/desire for this book? The seller did everything you said was driving these new higher prices and the grade didn't change, but the price still doubled. Why?

Because the Voldemart holder is still gaining confidence in the market and some people don't know how to grade.

Final auction prices are all about CONFIDENCE. Confidence in the market, in the assigned grade, in the product.

As I said in that discussion last year, I didn't think it was sorely overgraded as a Voldy 8.5 and if I'd been in the right place and right time I'd have bought the book as I thought it went too cheap. Apparently someone else had the same thought.

Edited by VintageComics
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