THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB 39 39

[lou_fine]

15 hours ago, zhamlau said:

The story is clear I think. Clean unrestored blue label copies without marvel chipping are now being treated with a level of importance putting them head and shoulder above every other silver-age book and all but a handful of ultra key golden age books. It's on some level the most important collector comic book in the world to own and the buyers are treating it as such. Putting Stan's graph on it plays to a certain crowd, but that crowd isn't the one driving this "condition/historic significance" drive we are seeing. I think most people in the market for an AF15 with some money to spend would much rather not see Stan drawing on it. They don't want to see marvel chips, they don't want to see huge inch chunks out of it.  When you have that, the passion isn't there and thus the price wont match.

CGC might not be qualifying these books as having exceptional eye appeal, but the buyers clearly are. CGC isn't qualifying for having marvel chips, but the buyers clearly are. Your 4.5 with chips will sell significantly more than it did last year, no doubt. But dont expect it to fly like these current books did.

Heck, maybe its time for CGC to start treating Marvel Chipping like they do Tape, mentioned right on the label almost like a qualifier or hidden defect. Maybe also they add the "exceptional eye appeal" tag or star.

+1

Very well written analysis of what is going on in the marketplace today and I am in total agreement with your points here. 

[SC22]

3 hours ago, fishbone said:

Never even thought about the MC/no MC argument before,  years ago I was always told CGC didn't downgrade as MC was common for SA books of this era. But I suppose buyers are indeed paying a premium for no MC these days.

They do look purdy though without: 

 

Nice trio!!

[SC22]

Well the CGC 5.0 sold on ComicLink after yesterday's results came it it found a buyer. Last I saw the offer was 28 880$ I believe but maybe the buyer used the full by it now of nearly 30 000$. It's no longer on ComicLink so I can see it.

Edited March 22, 2017 by SupergirlDC19591

[lou_fine]

14 hours ago, VintageComics said:

The Nov/Dec CC auction had a slew of Hulk #1 books in the auction, and almost all of them were inferior copies with tanning, COW pages, chipping, etc. Also, CC decided to auction a weaker copy first rather than the strongest CGC 8.5 go first. So an inferior CGC 7.0 or 7.5 tan, Cream pages copy led the way making a dismal auction price and then the CGC 8.5 copy (which really should have been the 1st copy to end) auctioned off the following day, setting a record price.  By then it was too late. The fugly Hulk #1s hit GPA making the book look weak. Which it isn't. Anybody who has been selling Hulk #1's in mid and higher grades knows the book is moving.

Not quite sure if I am following you here since CC's auction for the so called red hot AF 15's (all 7 of them including the 2 wraps) on this go round followed the exact same format as the auction for the so called weak Hulk 1's (all 7 of them ranging from 8.5 down to 1.0) in CC's Nov/Dec auction.  Their auction listings always goes from highest graded down to lowest graded if there are more than 1 copy of the same book in their auctions.

Cannot speak to the Hulk 1's in the last auction since I was not at my computer that time.  With the AF 15's this time, the 9.0 copy was the first one to trigger the 3-minute clock, but it was by far the last of the AF 15 listings to end as it took over 30 minutes to end due to all of the extended bids that were being triggered.  I was watching the Top 3 AF 15 lots and the first one to officially end was the 4.5 copy, followed minutes later by the 5.0 copy, and then way after that by the 9.0 copy.  I am sure that must have been what happened with the 7 copies of Hulk 1's as the highest graded 8.5 copy was the first to hit the 3 minute buzzer, but the last one still left standing at the end. 

I think the problem with the Hulk 1's was that it has always been deemed to be one of the tougher key SA Marvel books to find.  When an auction house puts up 7 different copies of them at the same time, it is not necessarily supporting this theory of perceived scarcity of this book.  I am sure this large quantity of a supposedly scarce book was one of the main factors in keeping prices down in the last auction, and the book would have done a lot better if there was only the one copy of it available. 

 

 

[showcase22gr1959]

7 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Not quite sure if I am following you here since CC's auction for the so called red hot AF 15's (all 7 of them including the 2 wraps) on this go round followed the exact same format as the auction for the so called weak Hulk 1's (all 7 of them ranging from 8.5 down to 1.0) in CC's Nov/Dec auction.  Their auction listings always goes from highest graded down to lowest graded if there are more than 1 copy of the same book in their auctions.

Cannot speak to the Hulk 1's in the last auction since I was not at my computer that time.  With the AF 15's this time, the 9.0 copy was the first one to trigger the 3-minute clock, but it was by far the last of the AF 15 listings to end as it took over 30 minutes to end due to all of the extended bids that were being triggered.  I was watching the Top 3 AF 15 lots and the first one to officially end was the 4.5 copy, followed minutes later by the 5.0 copy, and then way after that by the 9.0 copy.  I am sure that must have been what happened with the 7 copies of Hulk 1's as the highest graded 8.5 copy was the first to hit the 3 minute buzzer, but the last one still left standing at the end. 

I think the problem with the Hulk 1's was that it has always been deemed to be one of the tougher key SA Marvel books to find.  When an auction house puts up 7 different copies of them at the same time, it is not necessarily supporting this theory of perceived scarcity of this book.  I am sure this large quantity of a supposedly scarce book was one of the main factors in keeping prices down in the last auction, and the book would have done a lot better if there was only the one copy of it available. 

 

 

I was there in my computer when the H1's were auction off Nov/Dec. There was only one H1 auction first, which was the 7.5 off/white.  The following few days later, more H1's (a bunch) at the same day with the 8.5. I think it's just timing and auction fatigue the last quarter of 2016.

[showcase22gr1959]

2 hours ago, fishbone said:

Never even thought about the MC/no MC argument before,  years ago I was always told CGC didn't downgrade as MC was common for SA books of this era. But I suppose buyers are indeed paying a premium for no MC these days.

They do look purdy though without: 

 

Very nice AF15's. Wow! The chips began to take notice around 2009 and increase dramatically the last few years by eye appeal collectors/buyers.

Edited March 22, 2017 by showcase22gr1959

[lou_fine]

7 minutes ago, showcase22gr1959 said:

I was there in my computer when the H1's were auction off Nov/Dec. There was only one H1 auction first, which was the 7.5 off/white.  The following few days later, more H1's (a bunch) at the same day with the 8.5. I think it's just timing and auction fatigue the last quarter of 2016.

Oh, now I see, as you and Roy must be referring to the Lasry copy of Hulk 1 that sold on the first 2 days of the auction prior to their regular Winter Event Auction.

You guys do realize that CC was auctioning off the Lasry Collection as part of that Nov/Dec auction and that collection in itself comprised of over 1,200 individual lots.  I am sure the consignor must have requested that all of these books be auctioned off separately from the other non-Lasry lots.  And this is exactly why I have stated on many occasions that in a big auction done in this format, you will definitely not realize top dollars on many of your lots, except possibly for your main featured lots.  It is easy for what would normally be a big book in a regular auction to get "lost" in the midst of other even bigger books or just due to the sheer quantity of the books being auctioned off.  After all, their Action run alone ran pretty well intact form issue #2 though to #433, tons of other big name GA keys like the Solicitation Copy of Wonder Woman 1 that sold for almost $300K.  With these kinds of books all coming from one collection, I strongly doubt that they would want to pull the Hulk 1 and slot it in with their regular auction, just because it might get a few dollars more. 

A heads up here:  Since CC will be auctioning off Jon Berk's Collection in their upcoming May/June Auction, there will also probably be many other good deals to be had.  Especially with thousands of HTF and never seen books from the 1930's right though, it will be easy for many books to be "lost" as collectors will simply not be able to focus on such a large quantity of books at the same time, except for the featured books such as the Church copy of Fantastic 3, Action 1, 'Tec 27.  Big big money for the collection as a whole, but definitely not top dollar on the individual books on a book by book basis if it had been piece meal off and sold slowly over many years. 

[VintageComics]

6 hours ago, lou_fine said:

7 hours ago, showcase22gr1959 said:

I was there in my computer when the H1's were auction off Nov/Dec. There was only one H1 auction first, which was the 7.5 off/white.  The following few days later, more H1's (a bunch) at the same day with the 8.5. I think it's just timing and auction fatigue the last quarter of 2016.

Oh, now I see, as you and Roy must be referring to the Lasry copy of Hulk 1 that sold on the first 2 days of the auction prior to their regular Winter Event Auction.

Correct.

The 7.5 copy (with tanning and COW pages) was the first Hulk #1 to auction.

The Lasry 8.5 along with the other copies auctioned off the following day.

1st, the inferior 7.5 ending 1st doesn't help.

2nd (and my main point being), if it was a grouping of Hulk #1 copies being auctioned off that looked exceptional for the grade (not including the 8.5, which did set a record as it's truly tough in grade) and potentially improvable then those Hulk #1 books in grades lower than 8.5 would have set records too.

All you have to do to see if this theory is correct is look at the AF #15 3.0 which did reasonably well but didn't follow the pattern of the much better looking books. It sold for right around where it should have. Why? Because there was no chance of improvement IMO.

I know that the prevailing theory is that no MC is causing these dramatic price swings. I don't think that's the whole story.

[showcase22gr1959]

1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

Correct.

The 7.5 copy (with tanning and COW pages) was the first Hulk #1 to auction.

The Lasry 8.5 along with the other copies auctioned off the following day.

1st, the inferior 7.5 ending 1st doesn't help.

2nd (and my main point being), if it was a grouping of Hulk #1 copies being auctioned off that looked exceptional for the grade (not including the 8.5, which did set a record as it's truly tough in grade) and potentially improvable then those Hulk #1 books in grades lower than 8.5 would have set records too.

All you have to do to see if this theory is correct is look at the AF #15 3.0 which did reasonably well but didn't follow the pattern of the much better looking books. It sold for right around where it should have. Why? Because there was no chance of improvement IMO.

I know that the prevailing theory is that no MC is causing these dramatic price swings. I don't think that's the whole story.

These are the prices for the seven Hulk 1 that were auctions in the last quarter auction at CC 2016. You mentioned in the H1 thread during that time the H1 7.5 went cheap and the H1 8.5 should have sold stronger in the north of 150K.  The two BIG Marvel SA Keys are trending up again (especially AF15's). As I mention above before to Loufine: I think it's just timing and auction fatigue the last quarter of 2016.

8.5 White Pages 132000

7.5 Off-White Pages 37500

6.0 Cream/Off-White Pages 18411

5.5 Off-White Pages 16200

2.0 Off-white Pages 6211

1.5 Off-white Pages 4500

1.0 Off-white Pages 3106

 

 

[VintageComics]

1 minute ago, showcase22gr1959 said:

2 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Correct.

The 7.5 copy (with tanning and COW pages) was the first Hulk #1 to auction.

The Lasry 8.5 along with the other copies auctioned off the following day.

1st, the inferior 7.5 ending 1st doesn't help.

2nd (and my main point being), if it was a grouping of Hulk #1 copies being auctioned off that looked exceptional for the grade (not including the 8.5, which did set a record as it's truly tough in grade) and potentially improvable then those Hulk #1 books in grades lower than 8.5 would have set records too.

All you have to do to see if this theory is correct is look at the AF #15 3.0 which did reasonably well but didn't follow the pattern of the much better looking books. It sold for right around where it should have. Why? Because there was no chance of improvement IMO.

I know that the prevailing theory is that no MC is causing these dramatic price swings. I don't think that's the whole story.

These are the prices for the seven Hulk 1 that were auctions in the last quarter auction at CC 2016. You mentioned in the H1 thread during that time the H1 7.5 went cheap and the H1 8.5 should have sold stronger in the north of 150K.  The two BIG Marvel SA Keys are trending up again (especially AF15's). As I mention above before to Loufine: I think it's just timing and auction fatigue the last quarter of 2016.

8.5 White Pages 132000

7.5 Off-White Pages 37500

6.0 Cream/Off-White Pages 18411

5.5 Off-White Pages 16200

2.0 Off-white Pages 6211

1.5 Off-white Pages 4500

1.0 Off-white Pages 3106

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make other than agree with me.

The only Hulk #1 that went reasonably strong was the 8.5, for obvious reasons (impossible book in higher grades). The rest were fairly weak results.

Was auction fatigue a factor? I believe so. But I also believe that weak copies being auctioned (outside of the 8.5 copy) and ALSO having the 7.5 go first (rather than the 8.5) were also a factor in keeping prices low.

Is the book trending up? I believe so.

But sometimes it takes a little market research to understand what is really going on and not just auction results.

 

[showcase22gr1959]

8 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Oh, now I see, as you and Roy must be referring to the Lasry copy of Hulk 1 that sold on the first 2 days of the auction prior to their regular Winter Event Auction.

You guys do realize that CC was auctioning off the Lasry Collection as part of that Nov/Dec auction and that collection in itself comprised of over 1,200 individual lots.  I am sure the consignor must have requested that all of these books be auctioned off separately from the other non-Lasry lots.  And this is exactly why I have stated on many occasions that in a big auction done in this format, you will definitely not realize top dollars on many of your lots, except possibly for your main featured lots.  It is easy for what would normally be a big book in a regular auction to get "lost" in the midst of other even bigger books or just due to the sheer quantity of the books being auctioned off.  After all, their Action run alone ran pretty well intact form issue #2 though to #433, tons of other big name GA keys like the Solicitation Copy of Wonder Woman 1 that sold for almost $300K.  With these kinds of books all coming from one collection, I strongly doubt that they would want to pull the Hulk 1 and slot it in with their regular auction, just because it might get a few dollars more. 

A heads up here:  Since CC will be auctioning off Jon Berk's Collection in their upcoming May/June Auction, there will also probably be many other good deals to be had.  Especially with thousands of HTF and never seen books from the 1930's right though, it will be easy for many books to be "lost" as collectors will simply not be able to focus on such a large quantity of books at the same time, except for the featured books such as the Church copy of Fantastic 3, Action 1, 'Tec 27.  Big big money for the collection as a whole, but definitely not top dollar on the individual books on a book by book basis if it had been piece meal off and sold slowly over many years. 

I wonder if Larsy still has the Action 1 since #2-443 was sold during that event auction. Perhaps it was one of the big record A1 that was sold  previously years ago. I remember the Larson Batman 1 8.0 did quite well too. The Berk Collection will be very exciting as you mentioned with many classic books/art and some books never seen the light of day for collectors the opportunity to acquire. In an auction format, there well always be battles won and lost..with great results and disappointing results.

[showcase22gr1959]

3 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make other than agree with me.

The only Hulk #1 that went reasonably strong was the 8.5, for obvious reasons (impossible book in higher grades). The rest were fairly weak results.

Was auction fatigue a factor? I believe so. But I also believe that weak copies being auctioned (outside of the 8.5 copy) and ALSO having the 7.5 go first (rather than the 8.5) were also a factor in keeping prices low.

Is the book trending up? I believe so.

But sometimes it takes a little market research to understand what is really going on and not just auction results.

 

My point again was these prices of H1 sold during that time was a great buying opportunity on pullbacks during the auction fatigue. If you analysis these prices and the structures of these copies, they are currently under the FMV of H1's.  The H1 in CC auctions today will show the trend is up again like AF15's.

[VintageComics]

3 minutes ago, showcase22gr1959 said:

My point again was these prices of H1 sold during that time was a great buying opportunity on pullbacks during the auction fatigue. If you analysis these prices and the structures of these copies, they are currently under the FMV of H1's.  The H1 in CC auctions today will show the trend is up again like AF15's.

Gotcha.

I'd agree. I've been saying that Hulk #1 has looked like a good buying opportunity since last summer and it is picking up steam.

My main point though is that if the Hulk #1 copies auctioned off in that LAsry CC auction were stellar copies for the grade or upgradeable, fatigue wouldn't have been a factor on auction results (at least not to the same degree) as speculators would have pushed the price above average - just like someone did for the Hulk #1 8.5.

 

[showcase22gr1959]

1 minute ago, VintageComics said:

Gotcha.

I'd agree. I've been saying that Hulk #1 has looked like a good buying opportunity since last summer and it is picking up steam.

My main point though is that if the Hulk #1 copies auctioned off in that LAsry CC auction were stellar copies for the grade or upgradeable, fatigue wouldn't have been a factor on auction results (at least not to the same degree) as speculators would have pushed the price above average - just like someone did for the Hulk #1 8.5.

 

Agree it was a buying opportunity and picking up steam. Who would not love the two beloved Marvel Characters.

[lou_fine]

3 hours ago, VintageComics said:

10 hours ago, lou_fine said:

10 hours ago, showcase22gr1959 said:

I was there in my computer when the H1's were auction off Nov/Dec. There was only one H1 auction first, which was the 7.5 off/white.  The following few days later, more H1's (a bunch) at the same day with the 8.5. I think it's just timing and auction fatigue the last quarter of 2016.

Oh, now I see, as you and Roy must be referring to the Lasry copy of Hulk 1 that sold on the first 2 days of the auction prior to their regular Winter Event Auction.

Correct.

The 7.5 copy (with tanning and COW pages) was the first Hulk #1 to auction.

The Lasry 8.5 along with the other copies auctioned off the following day.

1st, the inferior 7.5 ending 1st doesn't help.

Roy;

Just a slight correction here.

The Lasry Hulk 1 was the CGC 7.5 graded copy and was auctioned off on Tuesday as part of the Lasry Collection which took place on the first 2 days prior to the regular CC Event Auction.  Looks like the slew of 6 other Hulk 1's took place 2 days later on Thursday:

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?referral=EAlist&id=681662&title=INCREDIBLEHULK

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?referral=EAlist&id=682667&title=INCREDIBLEHULK

Personally, I believe way too many copies of any one book, let alone a supposedly scarce Hulk 1, in the exact same auction will always only serve to keep prices down on a book. 

[cbbcomics]

My AF15 next to his little brother. 

[peewee22]

14 minutes ago, bringsenseback said:

My AF15 next to his little brother. 

wow, what a pair, congrats jason !  

[SC22]

1 hour ago, bringsenseback said:

My AF15 next to his little brother. 

Very cool congrats!!

[Spiderturtle]

14 hours ago, fishbone said:

Never even thought about the MC/no MC argument before,  years ago I was always told CGC didn't downgrade as MC was common for SA books of this era. But I suppose buyers are indeed paying a premium for no MC these days.

They do look purdy though without: 

 

Nice, very nice

[Spiderturtle]

24 minutes ago, bringsenseback said:

My AF15 next to his little brother. 

Very cool pair