THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB 39 39

[namisgr]

Also, the original points stand, that (i) it can't be seen from within a slab whether a book has tanning halos on the interior pages; (ii) graders' notes, which one has to pay for, may or may not note it; and (iii) interior cover tanning is almost invariably accompanied by inferior page quality, so early SA and Atom Age comics with poor page quality can be suspected of having interior cover problems, provided the information on the book before slabbing isn't available.

There are a lot of slabbed books that get posted here that have numerical grades below the apparent structural preservation.  While some may, indeed, be harshly graded, others carry defects like interior cover edge tanning and torn pages that account for the discrepancy between cover appearance and numerical grade.

Edited September 28, 2017 by namisgr

[VintageComics]

8 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

Nope.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxing

"Although unsightly and a negative factor in the value of the paper item for collectors, foxing does not affect the actual integrity of the paper."

-J.

Correct. Meaning foxing doesn't deteriorate it...but tanning does and this is where you are contradicting yourself.

This was your exact quote:

1)Edge tanning can also be caused by sun/dust shadows and even foxing at times, none of which has any affect on paper suppleness (ie "page quality").

You said edge tanning can be caused by Foxing. Foxing and edge tanning are two different things. Foxing doesn't cause a degradation on paper quality. Tanning does.

In my experience foxed books have terrific paper quality (I submit the Larson Pedigree as exhibit A - known for it's awesome page quality and also known for it's foxing).

How many comics with foxing have you handled? I've handled thousands. Some of the older times have handled even more than that.

As a general rule, if I see foxing I'm assuming page quality is going to be good based in my experiences. Not as much for books with browned paper. 

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[VintageComics]

11 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

You don't know how many books I have submitted.  

-J.

Based on your statements I'd bet the house that you've submitted less than me, and I know that namisgr and Bomber-Bob have been doing this for longer than I have as I took a decade off (and they have a few years on me).

It's better to quite while you're ahead.

 

 

[Glassman10]

32 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

So you are saying Bob is open to taking a cut from his commission fee ? Interesting. I never thought of asking for this. Good info. 

It was certainly suggested to me to insist on a discount from auction houses based on the value of the AF15. It was like shooting fish in a tuna can for them. That was never the subject with Bob on my end. When we were talking early on, sitting with this table filled with stacks of books and I said, "so, the commission is 8.5%," and he immediately corrected me and said "8.75%", so that 's firm near as I can see. We did agree on the lowest figure I would accept for the book. He got it. 

It seems like there is this persistent effort to whittle down the veracity of the transaction. It is what it was stated to be. We came off of 55K down to 50K which I was comfortable with.  When the book had been posted for about 60 days, I asked Bob if we should consider lowering the price. He simply said "No."

That's representation. 

You'll not find me trying to second guess what Bob knows about this market. I would have been pretty unhappy if I'd put it out to an auction house and seen it get 20K Less. I have to keep in mind that when I considered the entire collection, and it is a nice bunch of books, I had hoped I could get 40K for everything. I was told by others that wasn't possible.  Keep in mind Bob bought 900 books from me outright at an undisclosed price and wrote me a check at the table. . The only book I consigned was the AF 15.

The chickens expect a palace, not a hovel. 

What I find amusing in myself is that now I'm Jonesing for some Dr Strange. Not even early ones, not in great shape. I don't want them slabbed. I always loved watching the little balloon spells whack into each other. And Clea's hair do was something.  And those Astral selves saved a lot of time for the inker.  I have to give Bob a call and see what he's got. I never collected Dr Strange at all. X men either... dumb. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Glassman10

[Bomber-Bob]

4 minutes ago, Glassman10 said:

It was certainly suggested to me to insist on a discount from auction houses based on the value of the AF15. It was like shooting fish in a tuna can for them. That was never the subject with Bob on my end. When we were talking early on, sitting with this table filled with stacks of books and I said, "so, the commission is 8.5%," and he immediately corrected me and said "8.75%", so that 's firm near as I can see. We did agree on the lowest figure I would accept for the book. He got it. 

It seems like there is this persistent effort to whittle down the veracity of the transaction. It is what it was stated to be. We came off of 55K down to 50K which I was comfortable with.  When the book had been posted for about 60 days, I asked Bob if we should consider lowering the price. He simply said "No."

That's representation. 

You'll not find me trying to second guess what Bob knows about this market. I would have been pretty unhappy if I'd put it out to an auction house and seen it get 20K Less. The chickens expect a palace, not a hovel. 

What I find amusing in myself is that now I'm Jonesing for some Dr Strange. Not even early ones, not in great shape. I don't want them slabbed. I always loved watching the little balloon spells whack into each other. And Clea's hair do was something.  And those Astral selves saved a lot of time for the inker. 

Glass, first off congrats on both the 'discovery' of this great book and the sale. Also, you did well choosing Bob Storms as your agent, no need to defend that decision. I think I'm just stirring the pot a little here, expounding on some of the financial comments being made. IMO, it's never wise to discuss the specific financials of a transaction, especially on a public forum. Whether it's GPA, the IRS, or the Russians you don't want them to know. I hope you consider this in the future.

[namisgr]

10 minutes ago, Glassman10 said:

What I find amusing in myself is that now I'm Jonesing for some Dr Strange. Not even early ones, not in great shape. I don't want them slabbed. I always loved watching the little balloon spells whack into each other. And Clea's hair do was something.  And those Astral selves saved a lot of time for the inker.  I have to give Bob a call and see what he's got. I never collected Dr Strange at all. X men either... dumb. 

I highly recommend the Ditko Dr. Strange books, as his artwork is even more inventive and atmospheric than on Spiderman.  For Bronze Age Dr. Strange, you can find superb work from Barry Smith, Frank Brunner, and Michael Golden, just to name a few.

[blazingbob]

44 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

So you are saying Bob is open to taking a cut from his commission fee ? Interesting. I never thought of asking for this. Good info. 

NO he is not.  Consignment rates are 10% up to $9999,  8.75% from $10K - $99,999.   7.5% over $100K.  And so anybody reading this is clear.  I DO NOT charge buyers or sellers the cc/paypal fees.   I DO NOT charge restocking or any type of handling fees.     

Edited September 28, 2017 by blazingbob

[Glassman10]

2 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Glass, first off congrats on both the 'discovery' of this great book and the sale. Also, you did well choosing Bob Storms as your agent, no need to defend that decision. I think I'm just stirring the pot a little here, expounding on some of the financial comments being made. IMO, it's never wise to discuss the specific financials of a transaction, especially on a public forum. Whether it's GPA, the IRS, or the Russians you don't want them to know. I hope you consider this in the future.

You may be right, I would hope not. Back during the watergate hearings I was dating a woman whose father was on one of the courts that said Nixon had to give up the tapes. He had me investigated  as he didn't like my political leanings.

These days I'd probably get isolation for what I think, BUT all those priced transactions are listed in the websites of the dealers. They push that to encourage clients. As here, there are no names. The taxes will get paid. I can understand wanting secrecy about sales yet everyone is dying to know what the sales figures really are. 

[Bomber-Bob]

Just now, blazingbob said:

NO he is not.  Consignment rates are 10% up to $9999,  8.75% from $10K - $99,999.   7.5% over $100K.

I realize that. It was just a 'polite' way for me to show the poster his comment was out of line. I don't think the specific financials of this transaction should have been brought up in the first place and it is ridiculous that we are talking about it.  

[Jaydogrules]

55 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Correct. Meaning foxing doesn't deteriorate it...but tanning does and this is where you are contradicting yourself.

This was your exact quote:

1)Edge tanning can also be caused by sun/dust shadows and even foxing at times, none of which has any affect on paper suppleness (ie "page quality").

You said edge tanning can be caused by Foxing. Foxing and edge tanning are two different things. Foxing doesn't cause a degradation on paper quality. Tanning does.

In my experience foxed books have terrific paper quality (I submit the Larson Pedigree as exhibit A - known for it's awesome page quality and also known for it's foxing).

How many comics with foxing have you handled? I've handled thousands. Some of the older times have handled even more than that.

As a general rule, if I see foxing I'm assuming page quality is going to be good based in my experiences. Not as much for books with browned paper. 

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Thanks for expressing your OPINIONS again.  

Do you ever discuss actual facts or the science behind paper degradation at all ?

I've already explained it earlier in the thread, but in case you missed it, I'll give you the abbreviated version of it:

1) The cause of paper deterioration is the break down of the lignin of the paper.

2) This can happen absent any extrinsic environmental factors, literally the acid within the paper itself can cause the lignin to break down and the paper to deteriorate. 

3) This can happen (or continue happening) to a book that's already within a slab. 

4) The literal "colour" of the paper is neither a cause of nor a direct result of the breakdown of the paper lignin  (nor vice versa).

5) Foxing can in fact give the APPEARANCE of a tanned edge.  "Tan" is a colour, and does not necessarily have anything to do with the lignin of the paper (see Wikipedia article already quoted above).

6) The "PQ" CGC puts on the label is referencing "page 'QUALITY'" (ie, their best GUESS on the degree of breakdown of the paper lignin at the time they handle and grade the book).  They only use "colours" as a shorthand to assess it, because A) That's what collectors have historically done, and B)Not many people know what the heck paper "lignin" is.

Now please tell me how "wrong" I am again so I can start unleashing the litany of published articles on paper ephemera and preservation that contradict almost every OPINION that you have on the matter.

-J.

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[blazingbob]

While I love nothing more then to watch the two titans of "have to get the last word in" battle it out why don't you two start a "What does Page quality really mean" thread and do your battle there?   

Edited September 28, 2017 by blazingbob

[Gotham Kid]

19 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

While I love nothing more then to watch the two titans of "have to get the last word in" battle it out

[namisgr]

22 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

While I love nothing more then to watch the two titans of "have to get the last word in" battle it out why don't you two start a "What does Page quality really mean" thread and do your battle there?   

Yes, let's this thread back to where it belongs, lauding the Blazing One as the best. 

Bob is the man for consigning your SA keys.

Edited September 28, 2017 by namisgr

[Jaydogrules]

Apologies gents!  

-J.

[drbanner]

28 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

While I love nothing more then to watch the two titans of "have to get the last word in" battle it out why don't you two start a "What does Page quality really mean" thread and do your battle there?   

Or perhaps they could call it "Sometimes when you think you're right and everybody else is wrong, you're wrong."

[jimjum12]

1 hour ago, Jaydogrules said:

1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

Incorrect.

As you are with the grade, but CGC is more consistent with PQ than you make them out to be. I'm basing this on slabbing books for 15 years.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.  

-J.

....it's all about opinions...... the PQ, the grade, the "value".......which is why these debates never end....despite the data spinning that can be used to imply veracity.  Just because something can be seen or not seen through the slab doesn't make the "meaning" of the factors present any less of an opinion. Personally..... I DO care about PQ ....... as do all of the collectors that I know who are also friends..... and that's about as real as it's going to get for me. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[BoomCity]

1 hour ago, Jaydogrules said:

Thanks for expressing your OPINIONS again.  

Do you ever discuss actual facts or the science behind paper degradation at all ?

I've already explained it earlier in the thread, but in case you missed it, I'll give you the abbreviated version of it:

1) The cause of paper deterioration is the break down of the lignin of the paper.

2) This can happen absent any extrinsic environmental factors, literally the acid within the paper itself can cause the lignin to break down and the paper to deteriorate. 

3) This can happen (or continue happening) to a book that's already within a slab. 

4) The literal "colour" of the paper is neither a cause of nor a direct result of the breakdown of the paper lignin  (nor vice versa).

5) Foxing can in fact give the APPEARANCE of a tanned edge.  "Tan" is a colour, and does not necessarily have anything to do with the lignin of the paper (see Wikipedia article already quoted above).

6) The "PQ" CGC puts on the label is referencing "page 'QUALITY'" (ie, their best GUESS on the degree of breakdown of the paper lignin at the time they handle and grade the book).  They only use "colours" as a shorthand to assess it, because A) That's what collectors have historically done, and B)Not many people know what the heck paper "lignin" is.

Now please tell me how "wrong" I am again so I can start unleashing the litany of published articles on paper ephemera and preservation that contradict almost every OPINION that you have on the matter.

-J.

 

So would this explanation be why a book with CR/OW can be just as supple as ow/w pages. Or am I misunderstanding.

[blazingbob]

[Jaydogrules]

5 minutes ago, BoomCity said:

So would this explanation be why a book with CR/OW can be just as supple as ow/w pages. Or am I misunderstanding.

PM sent.

-J.

[Iceman399]

2 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

So you are saying Bob is open to taking a cut from his commission fee ? Interesting. I never thought of asking for this. Good info. 

No I was not saying that at all.  Cutting one's commission devalues what that individual does, it happens in other industries and was just an example of how knowing all of information is important. 

What I was saying was that GPA should not be reporting sales that they are not 100% satisfied to know all of the information.  A simple post on the boards of Bob sold my book for me and I'm getting paid $50k is not knowing all of the information.