Insane press and flip Avengers 1.

[Moetown]

Is the new Avengers #1 owner a board member? Anyone know???

[Cyclops]

All because the spine stress was able to be shifted... 8.5 to a 9.2 insane. Boggles my mind that someone can see spine stress and realize it can be shifted so it's not visible.

 

8.5

 

9.2

 

Looking at the 8.5, looks like its lucky to be an 8.5.

 

That's the Saginaw copy. Originally brought to market by Sparkle City Comics in 2011.

 

Avengers #1 CGC 8.5 OW/White

 

 

 

That top edge...

 

Troubling.

[Guest Grails]

Is the new Avengers #1 owner a board member? Anyone know???

 

Why, are we forming a posse? The only thing he did wrong was not disclose the work. He didn't grade the book and he played by CGC's rules as to what they will allow in the blue label. If they decide that spine shifting is resto, then this practice will stop.

 

Also, I'm not defending the seller at all. I would never purchase from him because of his nondisclosure.

[MrBedrock]

I just filled my drawers with more poop.

[etanick]

for sure, his "relative" is a board member.

[jbud73]

Just kinda thinking out loud here. If they shift the spine so that a spine with multiple ticks becomes a sharp, flawless spine, haven't they improved the appearance of the book, even though the ticks are there still there on the back cover? Doesn't this particular book look better than it did before?

 

Not trying to defend the practice exactly, but if you are willing to accept pressing in general, is this step necessarily out of bounds?

 

And if getting rid of pressing isn't going to happen (partly, at least, because it can be very hard to detect), then it would appear we are stuck with this practice as well. Even though these books have a distinctive look, that look also appears naturally in some SA books, as someone noted. So determining definitively that this particular manipulation has taken place would be difficult, even if CGC had a mind to do so.

 

I dont know, to me it's completely different.

 

Like i said before, i dont mind pressing or buying pressed books. If a press takers away some faults that time and wear have put on a book and restore it to what it looked like years earlier, i dont have a problem with that.

 

Thats not whats happening here though. That Avengers 1 was restored to what it used to look like. It was completely changed and now is a different book with a different wrap to apparently successfully fool CGC into giving it a higher grade.

 

CGC has a lot of explaining to do on this imo. I dont care where the faults are, if its the spine or back cover. If a book has enough faults to make it a "weak" 8.5, no amount of shifting those faults around should bump it to a 9.2

 

 

Sorry in advance, I tried to not open this thread as I stopped reading these threads years ago. I basically made a conscious choice after Ewertgate, either give up collecting or understand that there are A LOT of things possible in a Blue slab.

 

Clean and Press, Yep, Clean other things (Yep), disassemble to book (Yep, granted you have to be very talented, but when we are talking tens of thousands people tend to acquire talent), Shift the spine (Yep) and so on.

 

To those that feel that pressing is ok but this is not ok Sorry I respect you but

 

Look when I buy a slab I know all of that is going on, I know Jason Ewert is still submitted books to CGC (granted through 3rd parties - oh the irony) and I also assume that there are things that are going on that I don't know about or haven't even dreamed of yet.

 

You want rules? Guess what there are no rules, and that really is the only rule. You see when the dollars are this big there are people in comics that have a singular focus. "Do whatever you can to increase the technical grade of a book and still retain the Blue Label." FULL STOP, that is IT.

 

The page flare and miscut from the spine and wrap adjustment probably doesn't come into play until 9.6 so add another manipulation technique to the pile. As someone posted there is no out of bounds, just edges of paper bound in wondrous plastic for your viewing pleasure.

 

you're right in a way, but its still pretty disgusting and this is one new layer of garbage that is more heinous than most of the other previous layers of garbage.

 

Comics aren't my only hobby and when I see this I just think about reallocating back to my other hobby, and I can't be the only one that thinks this way.

 

Its also kind of disgusting that this dilutes the uniqueness of truly virgin hg books. I know, I know, blah blah blah. But shifting a spine is so far outside of what I consider acceptable in an unrestored book.

 

Totally understand, we have both been here for a long time. As you know I wrote extensively on the NDP subject and disclosure. Got into some heated arguments with other collectors, some of whom were my friends. I know quite a few who sold off large quantities of their rather extensive and impressive collections (Gene, Tim, Scott). At the end of the day, for me what happened was twofold. One I couldn't bring myself to buy HG slabs, basically my valuation with the manipulation I knew was occurring meant I was willing to spend less and therefore not be competitive enough. However over time, the prices came down as the census swelled, and you know what, I'm buying more slabs again, plus I saved a lot of money not buying for those years.

 

That said certain books, like Avengers 1, well on those books the sky is the limit in terms of manipulation tactics and many of the books are still rising, so I'm still short a few keys. I have kind of resigned to presentable mid-grades of certain books and I actually sold off a lot of my SA X-Men because I wasn't going to pay the $$$ for a #1. Sure even mid-grade get manipulated, but the price point somehow makes it more palatable.

[DrWatson]

All because the spine stress was able to be shifted... 8.5 to a 9.2 insane. Boggles my mind that someone can see spine stress and realize it can be shifted so it's not visible.

 

8.5

 

9.2

 

Looking at the 8.5, looks like its lucky to be an 8.5.

 

That's the Saginaw copy. Originally brought to market by Sparkle City Comics in 2011.

 

Avengers #1 CGC 8.5 OW/White

 

 

Where's the rest of the back cover? If the front cover moved towards the back to relocate the defects from the front to the back, then what happened to the portion of the back that would have moved forward and out past the interior of the book? I'm not understanding exactly what was done.

[Cyclops]

I would have thought that the back cover would look more like this with that amount of "shift".

 

[VintageComics]

I'm a shakey mess.

 

Where's the Big Dogs at? (GAtor/Rick, Vintage Comics/Roy, etc)

 

I don't understand why you think I'm a big dog or you need everyone's opinion?

 

[Bronty]

He was going by post count

 

(and quality of inventory)

[etanick]

Just look at the top pic. There is room left in the inner well on the right side

 

After the press, the book is wider on the back and barely squeezed in the inner well...any wider and cgc may have not slab the book

[Guest Grails]

I just filled my drawers with more poop.

 

I wish I had that problem. Constipated from Percocet right now.

 

 

[DrWatson]

But doesn't everything have to shift? The cover can't shift independent of the pages without it being removed and reattached, can it?

[thehumantorch]

I have confirmed that the 9.2 and 8.5 are the same book.

 

[DrWatson]

Just look at the top pic. There is room left in the inner well on the right side

 

After the press, the book is wider on the back and barely squeezed in the inner well...any wider and cgc may have not slab the book

So, the back half of the book is sticking out past the first half of the book?

[Spidey-fan73]

Unbelievable, but not really. Comes down to $$/greed, which has/is ruining the hobby/world. The "innocence" of the hobby, any hobby, has been stolen by the actions of the greedy/scammers/manipulators. Collecting (and the scammers) went years without "3rd party graders", the $mongers making a killing manipulating books/cards/coins.

Enter the 3rd P.G.'s to "protect" from alterations/resto and ensure "proper" grading. So we're presented with this candy coated marketing, made me think of "Tommy Boy: with the on the box guarantee"; yet the authority on grading tells us that grading is subjective and that a book could be submitted several times and likely get a different grade each time. However, exceptions/errors/slips are found in the system i.e. in the case of GA books where "discretion" can be used, i.e. glue/CT. Looks like some severe discretion was used here.

Clearly someone missed the boat giving this Avengers 1 an 8.5 to begin with (no offense Racer-X); however, when the book was resubmitted and scored higher, come on? If a book goes through several hands before final grading is assigned, how can the defects on this book not stand out after 2 passes through, regardless of where they were initially and are now? After reading the threads about them tightening up, I was concerned about submitting any books. However, after seeing this 8.5 go to a 9.2, I may just have a few 10.0's in my future. Heck, if I press them, I may be looking at 11.0's, sky is the limit.

It boils down to buyer beware, be very, very, beware, errr aware. We are all alone down here. Ground control to Major Tom... uh-oh no ground control.

Be interesting if anyone from The CGC responds or this goes "unnoticed" and business as usual.

[VintageComics]

I don't get all the outrage. The only thing I have a problem with is that the work was not disclosed. This process has happened before and has been pointed out. As long as there is no disassembly involved, its just another form of pressing. My opinion mirrors most here that it does look like but we all know there are label chasers that will pick these up. As far as the grade bump, there is nothing uncommon about it. As far as what CGC graded it, I believe they dropped the ball on it. That chip and all the spine ticks still exist on the book. If I had the knowledge and equipment I would do the same thing along with full disclosure of the work. Providing for the family is more important than funny books.

 

I think the outrage is more about the dollar value difference than the fact that the pages are fanned. If this was a Shlock Detective #2 CGC 8.5 that went to a 9.2 nobody would care a hoot.

 

People see the large dollar value difference and it carries a much larger shock value than if the book was worthless and sometimes that's hard to separate from the discussion.

 

I'm really surprised to see this too but then as Grails said, the seller really didn't do anything wrong except have the book pressed. Anyone else had the opportunity to do the same.

 

As far as I can see, he probably got lucky on the grade. The book should really still be an 8.5 if the colour breaking defects are the same, but hey, CGC can be inconsistent. It happens, apparently.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Just look at the top pic. There is room left in the inner well on the right side

 

After the press, the book is wider on the back and barely squeezed in the inner well...any wider and cgc may have not slab the book

So, the back half of the book is sticking out past the first half of the book?

 

Yes, it looks that way.

[etanick]

Yes ....think of this like a manufactured spine roll

[rjpb]

Here's another spine mover (& tidy profit) as I just read this thread and notice this earlier in the week that I thought was odd:

 

The "SM" on the fc upper LHC is a give away for the same book...

 

Cap #1 4.5 sold for $34.6K in 08.11.

 

Cap #1 Now a 6.0 sold for $65.7K in 02.12.

 

You know.... this is part of where the slippery slope on this comes in, but this one seems more acceptable. You could legitimately say that the "before" version had a slight spine roll (note the fanned pages as seen from the back) that was corrected by whatever work was done.

 

Of course, now we're down to the fine points of intent here (removing spine roll = ok, hiding damage = not ok), which is always going to be tricky.

 

I would agree that the pressing could arguably be fixing or (cough) restoring (cough) the book to a non-spine rolled state ( or it could have been a sloppy fold originally). It still seems like it took some balls to do this on a book with such a heavy folding crease next to the spine, which has to be fairly fatigued. I can only imagine that moving it to the spine edge itself is putting additional stress on the paper ( spine's don't split for no reason). I hope whoever owns it doesn't plan on ever getting it reholdered, as additional handling could end up separating the front cover from the rest of the book ( although if that happens, tape might bring it back to at least a 3.0 )

 

While the book certainly has added eye-appeal, I'm not sure how a book with a crease like that on the spine ends up a 6.0.