Second Action 1 9.0 to hit the census

[VintageComics]

Let me break down what I was saying:

 

I was just saying I would think a prominent dealer has the knowledge and desire to maximize the money he received for the book vs selling the book to another dealer with enough money left on the table for the dealer to turn right around and flip it for profit as soon as the next Overstreet comes out.

 

You'd be very wrong if you believed this.

 

Not everyone is a shark. Not everyone knows what books actually fetch on the open market. Not everyone spends years on chat forums educating themselves. Not everyone has internet, even in this day and age. Not everyone knows that some book sell over guide.

 

Sometimes people need cash in a hurry and are happy to leave some meat on the bone to get more up front.

 

Sometimes really big books change hands raw.

 

And 'prominent dealer' is relative. It could be Metropolis (very unlikely) but it could also very well be someone who is popular in a particular region but still subscribes to one or more of the many points in my first paragraph.

 

And again, who cares. As long as the book is not stolen it's a cool book coming up for sale. Even if Darren might have read it on the toilet the way Bedrock does his books.

 

The back story Darren Adams presents doesn't pass the sniff test for me. Heck, even the beginning of the story where he says the person bought it off the newsstand and stored it in a ceder chest is so cliche.

 

I think the use of cedar was much more common 70 years ago for all perishable products including clothing and paper. I don't understand why it's cliche.

 

Was it cliche to find the Church books in a cedar closet?

[DarrenSmith]

So are you saying you believe Darren Adams story as told in the video?

 

No, I'm saying who cares about the back story about the book?

 

 

Well if anyone cares or not about the back story, Darren Adams is using the story in video form on Ebay to promote the auction of the book. I like early Actions so I watched the video. The story he tells doesn't pass the smell test to me and that makes me feel like its shady. I'll leave it at that. Like I said previously - I hope he does well on the sale.

 

 

 

[DarrenSmith]

Let me break down what I was saying:

 

I was just saying I would think a prominent dealer has the knowledge and desire to maximize the money he received for the book vs selling the book to another dealer with enough money left on the table for the dealer to turn right around and flip it for profit as soon as the next Overstreet comes out.

 

You'd be very wrong if you believed this.

 

Not everyone is a shark. Not everyone knows what books actually fetch on the open market. Not everyone spends years on chat forums educating themselves. Not everyone has internet, even in this day and age. Not everyone knows that some book sell over guide.

 

Sometimes people need cash in a hurry and are happy to leave some meat on the bone to get more up front.

 

Sometimes really big books change hands raw.

 

And 'prominent dealer' is relative. It could be Metropolis (very unlikely) but it could also very well be someone who is popular in a particular region but still subscribes to one or more of the many points in my first paragraph.

 

And again, who cares. As long as the book is not stolen it's a cool book coming up for sale. Even if Darren might have read it on the toilet the way Bedrock does his books.

 

The back story Darren Adams presents doesn't pass the sniff test for me. Heck, even the beginning of the story where he says the person bought it off the newsstand and stored it in a ceder chest is so cliche.

 

I think the use of cedar was much more common 70 years ago for all perishable products including clothing and paper. I don't understand why it's cliche.

 

Was it cliche to find the Church books in a cedar closet?

 

No I don't believe the prominent dealer part of his story, that's my point. I think he made that part up to make the book sound more special like how he tells the story of the person in the 1980s going through the stack of comics and near the bottom he finds the Action #1. (If it's not on top its gotta be near the bottom or it wouldn't make a good story)

 

The ceder chest is cliche because its used over and over again by people selling comics just like saying it was my Grandpas.

 

As to your comment about to big books trading raw. I'm not sure why you are saying that to me. Most books do trade raw, I never said they didn't.

 

[BB-Gun]

Let me break down what I was saying:

 

I was just saying I would think a prominent dealer has the knowledge and desire to maximize the money he received for the book vs selling the book to another dealer with enough money left on the table for the dealer to turn right around and flip it for profit as soon as the next Overstreet comes out.

 

You'd be very wrong if you believed this.

 

Not everyone is a shark. Not everyone knows what books actually fetch on the open market. Not everyone spends years on chat forums educating themselves. Not everyone has internet, even in this day and age. Not everyone knows that some book sell over guide.

 

Sometimes people need cash in a hurry and are happy to leave some meat on the bone to get more up front.

 

Sometimes really big books change hands raw.

 

And 'prominent dealer' is relative. It could be Metropolis (very unlikely) but it could also very well be someone who is popular in a particular region but still subscribes to one or more of the many points in my first paragraph.

 

And again, who cares. As long as the book is not stolen it's a cool book coming up for sale. Even if Darren might have read it on the toilet the way Bedrock does his books.

 

The back story Darren Adams presents doesn't pass the sniff test for me. Heck, even the beginning of the story where he says the person bought it off the newsstand and stored it in a ceder chest is so cliche.

 

I think the use of cedar was much more common 70 years ago for all perishable products including clothing and paper. I don't understand why it's cliche.

 

Was it cliche to find the Church books in a cedar closet?

 

No I don't believe the prominent dealer part of his story, that's my point. I think he made that part up to make the book sound more special like how he tells the story of the person in the 1980s going through the stack of comics and near the bottom he finds the Action #1. (If it's not on top its gotta be near the bottom or it wouldn't make a good story)

 

The ceder chest is cliche because its used over and over again by people selling comics just like saying it was my Grandpas.

 

As to your comment about to big books trading raw. I'm not sure why you are saying that to me. Most books do trade raw, I never said they didn't.

 

Hey, I kept most of my comics with Kubert covers in a cedar chest. It does happen. I think Bill keeps his Tracy comics in a cedar chest too.

[tth2]

I fully concede that it's possible that a 9.0 Action #1 could have sold for at least $350K when the Pay copy sold for that amount but since none changed hands, all we have are opinions and conjecture.

 

And this idea that Darren's story is shady or that it has any bearing on fake Church books are completely disconnected from reality. Even if this particular book was read on a toilet, who cares? It is what it is - a CGC 9.0 copy of a great book.

The second paragraph I fully agree with you.

 

The first paragraph is just silly. Yes, it`s true that no 9.0 Action 1 sold back then, so I can never disprove the factual portion of your statement, but I can guarantee that a 9.0 copy would`ve sold for more than $350K because I would`ve come up with at least that much money to buy it.

 

[tth2]

So are you saying you believe Darren Adams story as told in the video?

Who cares? Your analogy of the Dentist passing off non-Mile Highs as Mile Highs has nothing to do with any alleged lies of Darren Adams, since he`s not trying to pass it off as a pedigree. What other parts of his story, even if completely fabricated, would affect the desirability of this book?

 

Perhaps the book didn`t really originate in Winnipeg. So what? It still looks very fresh and the pages still look very white.

 

Perhaps the *prominent dealer" was really some small time schmoe. So what?

 

Perhaps said dealer owned it for 5 years instead of 30 years. So what?

 

Perhaps Pristine hasn`t actually purchased the book at all and is simply auctioning it off on consignment. So what?

 

You could change literally every party of the backstory and it wouldn`t affect the value or desirability of the book one iota.

 

If it turns out the book is fake or is trimmed or something like that, that`s a different story, but then that`s on CGC. However, as someone else in this thread has surmised, it was probably more scrutinised by the graders at CGC than any book in the history of CGC.

[tth2]

 

Wasn't trying to make anything personal and if I gave the appearance of doing so, I apologize.

 

 

I wasn't a wheeler - dealer back in the 70's so my perception is just my perception. To me, I always saw Marvel #1 and Action #1 as being neck in neck as they were both benchmarks for the respective big two. I've been a lifelong Marvel fan and based on my perception, Marvel #1 was always just as big a book as Action #1.

 

I fully concede to very possibly being wrong on whether it actually was or not.

You`re wrong. Sean is right.

 

For a very brief period of time during the 1970s, Marvel 1 may have been considered more valuable than Action 1. For a very brief period of time during the height of Bat-mania in the late 1980s, Detective 27 was considered more valuable than Action 1. But those brief periods were the exceptions that proved the rule. Ultimately, the status of the top book in the hobby has always reverted back to Action 1.

[Sqeggs]

As long as the book is genuine and appears to be deserving of the grade assigned by CGC, who gives a mess what the back story is or whether it`s true or not? If it turned out that the whole Tom Reilly back story was made up, would that make the Reilly copies any less sweet? If it turned out that the whole Edgar Church story was made up by Chuck (see Maxim #1 above), does it make the Church books any less desirable?

 

I think the answer is "yes." The back stories to some pedigrees -- Church, SF, and Okajima are the ones that come to mind -- do matter. For any collectible, provenance can add value.

 

After all, the intrinsic value of a collectible is essentially zero. Condition matters, the place of the collectible in the history of the field matters, and, I think, provenance matters as well.

 

If it turned out that Chuck made up the whole Church story -- extremely unlikely, but let's suppose -- and the books were actually an amalgam of several unrelated collections he had purchased at that time, there would be a reaction. The value of the books would drop, I think; particularly those that weren't single highest graded.

 

I can't say I've looked at it that closely, but my impression is that the Don and Maggie books have been selling at a premium. Why would they, if people didn't care about where the books came from?

 

Getting back to the point here, I think knowing the details of the history of this Action 1 could add a little or subtract a little from its value.

[50YrsCollctngCmcs]

 

Anyhow, based on my conversations with people who were attending shows in the 1970's Marvel #1 was tougher to find than Action #1 (as Joe / All Star's con pic in another thread tends to prove), Marvel #1 was higher than Action #1 in the guide for a long time AND the Marvel #1 Pay copy did set a record price bench mark.

 

 

I can vouch for the lack of Marvel 1's in the seventies. I can't recall a single one in a decade of attending the Seuling NY shows but recall lots of Action 1 sightings. Then again, I was always a DC guy!

[Aman619]

When a relative noob is massaged into buying a key book for a world record price from one of the most successful comics entrepreneurs, or from the largest dealer in the country, as happened with Parrino and the Flash #1, we all take the price paid with a grain of salt. These guys tend to pay up way more than us regular comics collectors would.

 

And the ending to these stories bears this out because in one case they sell it too quickly for a big loss and get out of the hobby, or they trade it in for a bag of magic beans ( I mean Disney cells).

 

When you are a newbie and step up and overpay by decades, records are set as we saw happening with the Pay Copy and the Flash 1. The Flash was just the nicest copy of a scarce first appearance, but the Pay Copy had a magical one of a kind aspect beyond being just a copy of arguably the most expensive comic book in the world back then. And Geppi had paid a lot for it and it would take a huge sum to "pry" it out of his hands.

[Gotham Kid]

I fully concede that it's possible that a 9.0 Action #1 could have sold for at least $350K when the Pay copy sold for that amount but since none changed hands, all we have are opinions and conjecture.

 

And this idea that Darren's story is shady or that it has any bearing on fake Church books are completely disconnected from reality. Even if this particular book was read on a toilet, who cares? It is what it is - a CGC 9.0 copy of a great book.

The second paragraph I fully agree with you.

 

The first paragraph is just silly. Yes, it`s true that no 9.0 Action 1 sold back then, so I can never disprove the factual portion of your statement, but I can guarantee that a 9.0 copy would`ve sold for more than $350K because I would`ve come up with at least that much money to buy it.

 

I'm sure you wouldn't have been alone ...

[Gotham Kid]

So are you saying you believe Darren Adams story as told in the video?

Who cares? Your analogy of the Dentist passing off non-Mile Highs as Mile Highs has nothing to do with any alleged lies of Darren Adams, since he`s not trying to pass it off as a pedigree. What other parts of his story, even if completely fabricated, would affect the desirability of this book?

 

Perhaps the book didn`t really originate in Winnipeg. So what? It still looks very fresh and the pages still look very white.

 

Perhaps the *prominent dealer" was really some small time schmoe. So what?

 

Perhaps said dealer owned it for 5 years instead of 30 years. So what?

 

Perhaps Pristine hasn`t actually purchased the book at all and is simply auctioning it off on consignment. So what?

 

You could change literally every party of the backstory and it wouldn`t affect the value or desirability of the book one iota.

 

If it turns out the book is fake or is trimmed or something like that, that`s a different story, but then that`s on CGC. However, as someone else in this thread has surmised, it was probably more scrutinised by the graders at CGC than any book in the history of CGC.

 

Good post.

[Sqeggs]

So are you saying you believe Darren Adams story as told in the video?

Who cares? Your analogy of the Dentist passing off non-Mile Highs as Mile Highs has nothing to do with any alleged lies of Darren Adams, since he`s not trying to pass it off as a pedigree. What other parts of his story, even if completely fabricated, would affect the desirability of this book?

 

Perhaps the book didn`t really originate in Winnipeg. So what? It still looks very fresh and the pages still look very white.

 

Perhaps the *prominent dealer" was really some small time schmoe. So what?

 

Perhaps said dealer owned it for 5 years instead of 30 years. So what?

 

Perhaps Pristine hasn`t actually purchased the book at all and is simply auctioning it off on consignment. So what?

 

You could change literally every party of the backstory and it wouldn`t affect the value or desirability of the book one iota.

 

If it turns out the book is fake or is trimmed or something like that, that`s a different story, but then that`s on CGC. However, as someone else in this thread has surmised, it was probably more scrutinised by the graders at CGC than any book in the history of CGC.

 

Good post.

 

Ok. How about this (to keep it hypothetical)? 9.2 White copy of Action 1 surfaces.

 

Original story: A well known dealer has been holding it for decades and has finally decided to sell it.

 

Later (but before the auction), the true story comes out: Two months before the book was graded the well known dealer purchased it for $200 from the 95-year old widow of the OO.

 

No effect on price? I can't say I definitively know the answer, but I've been around too long to say that these things never matter or that there aren't collectors out there who steer away from books with dubious back stories.

 

On the other hand, though, maybe with a book of this magnitude it wouldn't matter.

 

 

[woowoo]

Marvel #1 is still top 3 would love to have a copy. The movies changed everthing more people know Sup Bat Cap than Sub?

[G.A.tor]

Marvel #1 is still top 3 would love to have a copy. The movies changed everthing more people know Sup Bat Cap than Sub?

Historically marvel 1 is maybe top 3-5. Financially it's near bottom of top 10 me thinks

[buttock]

As long as the book is genuine and appears to be deserving of the grade assigned by CGC, who gives a mess what the back story is or whether it`s true or not? If it turned out that the whole Tom Reilly back story was made up, would that make the Reilly copies any less sweet? If it turned out that the whole Edgar Church story was made up by Chuck (see Maxim #1 above), does it make the Church books any less desirable?

 

I think the answer is "yes." The back stories to some pedigrees -- Church, SF, and Okajima are the ones that come to mind -- do matter. For any collectible, provenance can add value.

 

.

 

The whole "Tim Reilly" back story on the SF collection has a lot of holes in it, which has been discussed at length on these boards.

[woowoo]

We all i can say that this Action 1 is the best copy ..........Story or NO story its great A__ book.

I will say if there was 2 church copys and this being the best and kept all these years till now it would add $$$$$ to the book. and the story wood really matter right?

[Bronty]

Ah c'mon Roy you're reaching All of that may be true but it doesn't change the fact that Parrino sales, while they happened, are not great indicators of FMV. Otherwise, why he lose over 100k on the book?

 

Is your position to explain that:

 

A) the value sunk like a stone in a short time; or

B) that he overpaid in the first place

 

Either way, the 200k sale is just as valid - probably more valid - than the 350k sale of the same book.

[Crowzilla]

When a relative noob is massaged into buying a key book for a world record price from one of the most successful comics entrepreneurs, or from the largest dealer in the country, as happened with Parrino and the Flash #1, we all take the price paid with a grain of salt. These guys tend to pay up way more than us regular comics collectors would.

 

When you are a newbie and step up and overpay by decades, records are set as we saw happening with the Pay Copy and the Flash 1. The Flash was just the nicest copy of a scarce first appearance, but the Pay Copy had a magical one of a kind aspect beyond being just a copy of arguably the most expensive comic book in the world back then. And Geppi had paid a lot for it and it would take a huge sum to "pry" it out of his hands.

 

I am talking about the mid-early 90s when the Dentist first sold the Flash #1 for $100K. Not a later resale to Parrino.

 

Geppi paid a fair price for the Pay Copy, not any giant multiple of guide, and I think people are forgetting that it (and the Pay Copy MPFW) were offered in one of the Christies/Sothebys auctions where they failed to meet a modest reserve. It was not much later that Parrino purchased the Pay Copy for many multiples of that reserve.

[VintageComics]

Yes, it`s true that no 9.0 Action 1 sold back then, so I can never disprove the factual portion of your statement, but I can guarantee that a 9.0 copy would`ve sold for more than $350K because I would`ve come up with at least that much money to buy it.

 

Fair enough! DC does suck, though.