Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87 3 3

[RockMyAmadeus]

I am still waiting for Jaydog to post his weighted analysis of Hulk #181 in all grades.

 

...is that actually going to happen, or was it just so much smoke to score rhetorical points...?

 

[AlexanderM]

And why is GL 76 still #2 on this list. Hulk 181 8.0's almost sell for double what the 76's fetch. What off the beaten path LCS is providing OPG with these #'s? Who has the Neal Adams man crush?

 

 

That's the white elephant in the room that has been ignored. Folks like RMA would rather point out the merits of another poster's auto correct ("Cerberus" vs. "Cerebus", my phone doesn't care either, my man) or how they choose to abbreviate "Overstreet", than the fact that about the only thing Overstreet is good for at this point is maintaining the status quo for old school collectors and giving local dealers something to low ball you with when you try to sell your books. It's great that some dealers can anecdotally recount how well their copies of Cerebus sell when they have them, there will always be a buyer for a book at some price. But again, if the book had an availability that was half (or even a quarter?) of Hulk 181, It would likely not be of any interest to even the niche collectors who like to feel like they have something "rare" in their collections.

 

Essentially the true "value" of the book is skewed mightily by the low print and nothing else. The value of hulk 181 is intrinsic and real. If Hulk 181 had the same print run as Cerebus it would probably be a 250k book in a 9.4. If Cerebus had the same print run as Hulk 181 it would probably be a 20 dollar book. I believe that is the point others have been trying to make when expressing bewilderment about Overstreet's list.

 

And no, hulk 181 hasn't "slowed". It's actually having its best year from a price appreciation standpoint in a long time. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

This post really sums the situation up nicely.

 

The argument about price to defend why ceres is important is not valid. Yes, it is expensive. But that has to do with the low print run and NOT because it is so sought after by a lot of people. Like you say..if they were equal print runs there would be a world of difference.

 

Few people want the book but because of the low print run the value is such that the meager demand still is greater than the even more meager supply...therefore from a business pow we would like to have the book because we know it can sell for a high price.

 

But again...not because it's an important character...because it has a low print run..

 

Why is there such a surplus of people willing to chuck reason out the window...?

 

:shrug:

 

The entire post you just said "summed up the situation nicely" is absolutely filled with bad reasoning, flawed understanding, and borderline libel.

 

And then, you add your own to it!

 

 

There are PLENTY of books that have print runs AND census counts AS LOW, or LOWER than Cerebus #1...but they do NOT sell for four figures in 9.0+.

 

NO ONE is arguing that Cerebus #1 (not "ceres") is important because of its value. The argument is that Cerebus #1 has value because it is important

 

It is supply AND DEMAND which runs a market. Why does that demand exist? Do you know the history of Cerebus, and how it influenced the comics industry?

 

Do you really believe what you just posted...?

 

Oy, people, come ON! Why do you post such things, for all the world to see?

 

Gentlemen...we MUST use reason!

 

Yes, logic is king. By the way, noone is saying that Cerebus is worthless. It has some meaning and more than many other books. However, the high price is mostly due to the low supply.

 

Let try to see if an example brings it home for you:

 

If 1.000.000 people think book A has the most important character while 5 people think book B has the most important character.

 

Then which book objectively has the most important character?

 

---

 

Good...

 

Now, let's add this information:

 

There are printed 2.000.000 copies of book A.

 

There are printed 2 copies of book B.

 

Which book might fetch the highest price?

 

It might very well be book B - simply because there is not enough supply to satisfy demand. Market Theory 101.

 

However, as was demonstrated, that does NOT mean that book B is the more important book. Logic.

Edited August 22, 2014 by AlexanderM

[Beastfeast]

This has been so painful to read.

 

Edit: Sorry RMA. I can't even imagine how you've been so calm.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Beastfeast

[HighStakesComics]

And why is GL 76 still #2 on this list. Hulk 181 8.0's almost sell for double what the 76's fetch. What off the beaten path LCS is providing OPG with these #'s? Who has the Neal Adams man crush?

 

 

That's the white elephant in the room that has been ignored. Folks like RMA would rather point out the merits of another poster's auto correct ("Cerberus" vs. "Cerebus", my phone doesn't care either, my man) or how they choose to abbreviate "Overstreet", than the fact that about the only thing Overstreet is good for at this point is maintaining the status quo for old school collectors and giving local dealers something to low ball you with when you try to sell your books. It's great that some dealers can anecdotally recount how well their copies of Cerebus sell when they have them, there will always be a buyer for a book at some price. But again, if the book had an availability that was half (or even a quarter?) of Hulk 181, It would likely not be of any interest to even the niche collectors who like to feel like they have something "rare" in their collections.

 

Essentially the true "value" of the book is skewed mightily by the low print and nothing else. The value of hulk 181 is intrinsic and real. If Hulk 181 had the same print run as Cerebus it would probably be a 250k book in a 9.4. If Cerebus had the same print run as Hulk 181 it would probably be a 20 dollar book. I believe that is the point others have been trying to make when expressing bewilderment about Overstreet's list.

 

And no, hulk 181 hasn't "slowed". It's actually having its best year from a price appreciation standpoint in a long time. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

This post really sums the situation up nicely.

 

The argument about price to defend why ceres is important is not valid. Yes, it is expensive. But that has to do with the low print run and NOT because it is so sought after by a lot of people. Like you say..if they were equal print runs there would be a world of difference.

 

Few people want the book but because of the low print run the value is such that the meager demand still is greater than the even more meager supply...therefore from a business pow we would like to have the book because we know it can sell for a high price.

 

But again...not because it's an important character...because it has a low print run..

 

Why is there such a surplus of people willing to chuck reason out the window...?

 

:shrug:

 

The entire post you just said "summed up the situation nicely" is absolutely filled with bad reasoning, flawed understanding, and borderline libel.

 

And then, you add your own to it!

 

 

There are PLENTY of books that have print runs AND census counts AS LOW, or LOWER than Cerebus #1...but they do NOT sell for four figures in 9.0+.

 

NO ONE is arguing that Cerebus #1 (not "ceres") is important because of its value. The argument is that Cerebus #1 has value because it is important

 

It is supply AND DEMAND which runs a market. Why does that demand exist? Do you know the history of Cerebus, and how it influenced the comics industry?

 

Do you really believe what you just posted...?

 

Oy, people, come ON! Why do you post such things, for all the world to see?

 

Gentlemen...we MUST use reason!

 

Yes, logic is king. By the way, noone is saying that Cerebus is worthless. It has some meaning and more than many other books. However, the high price is mostly due to the low supply.

 

Let try to see if an example brings it home for you:

 

If 1.000.000 people think book A has the most important character while 5 people think book B has the most important character.

 

Then which book objectively has the most important character?

 

---

 

Good...

 

Now, let's add this information:

 

There are printed 2.000.000 copies of book A.

 

There are printed 2 copies of book B.

 

Which book might fetch the highest price?

 

It might very well be book B - simply because there is not enough supply to satisfy demand. Market Theory 101.

 

However, as was demonstrated, that does NOT mean that book B is the more important book. Logic.

 

It's a close call. I see your logic, but give this a shot. Even though there are 50X more graded copies of the 181, there are 5 copies of Cerebus that are worth more than every single copy of 181, except the single 9.9, which is an anomaly. There was a great point made by Chuck earlier. You have $1000 to spend on either book and they both appear NM what comic do you go with? If money means anything to the buyer, it's a simple question to answer.

 

However, there are 8.5 Cerebus 1's on comiclink that aren't bid up anywhere near their 181 counterparts. This cannot be ignored either. There are merits to both sides, but if I had to pick a winner I know it's Cerebus #1 by a nose. Also important to remember and someone did bring it up earlier that Cerebus was ranked lower than 181 last year, and the new rankings were effective when the book was published a few months back before the 181's in 9.2 broke $3k. It's been a while since a highest or second highest Cerebus #1 has come to market, and this may cause a bidding war if one were brought to auction. If one of the 3 SS 9.4's were bumped, I would love to see the hammer price of a 9.6, or better yet a 9.8.

Edited August 22, 2014 by blazincomics

[AlexanderM]

And why is GL 76 still #2 on this list. Hulk 181 8.0's almost sell for double what the 76's fetch. What off the beaten path LCS is providing OPG with these #'s? Who has the Neal Adams man crush?

 

 

That's the white elephant in the room that has been ignored. Folks like RMA would rather point out the merits of another poster's auto correct ("Cerberus" vs. "Cerebus", my phone doesn't care either, my man) or how they choose to abbreviate "Overstreet", than the fact that about the only thing Overstreet is good for at this point is maintaining the status quo for old school collectors and giving local dealers something to low ball you with when you try to sell your books. It's great that some dealers can anecdotally recount how well their copies of Cerebus sell when they have them, there will always be a buyer for a book at some price. But again, if the book had an availability that was half (or even a quarter?) of Hulk 181, It would likely not be of any interest to even the niche collectors who like to feel like they have something "rare" in their collections.

 

Essentially the true "value" of the book is skewed mightily by the low print and nothing else. The value of hulk 181 is intrinsic and real. If Hulk 181 had the same print run as Cerebus it would probably be a 250k book in a 9.4. If Cerebus had the same print run as Hulk 181 it would probably be a 20 dollar book. I believe that is the point others have been trying to make when expressing bewilderment about Overstreet's list.

 

And no, hulk 181 hasn't "slowed". It's actually having its best year from a price appreciation standpoint in a long time. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

This post really sums the situation up nicely.

 

The argument about price to defend why ceres is important is not valid. Yes, it is expensive. But that has to do with the low print run and NOT because it is so sought after by a lot of people. Like you say..if they were equal print runs there would be a world of difference.

 

Few people want the book but because of the low print run the value is such that the meager demand still is greater than the even more meager supply...therefore from a business pow we would like to have the book because we know it can sell for a high price.

 

But again...not because it's an important character...because it has a low print run..

 

Why is there such a surplus of people willing to chuck reason out the window...?

 

:shrug:

 

The entire post you just said "summed up the situation nicely" is absolutely filled with bad reasoning, flawed understanding, and borderline libel.

 

And then, you add your own to it!

 

 

There are PLENTY of books that have print runs AND census counts AS LOW, or LOWER than Cerebus #1...but they do NOT sell for four figures in 9.0+.

 

NO ONE is arguing that Cerebus #1 (not "ceres") is important because of its value. The argument is that Cerebus #1 has value because it is important

 

It is supply AND DEMAND which runs a market. Why does that demand exist? Do you know the history of Cerebus, and how it influenced the comics industry?

 

Do you really believe what you just posted...?

 

Oy, people, come ON! Why do you post such things, for all the world to see?

 

Gentlemen...we MUST use reason!

 

Yes, logic is king. By the way, noone is saying that Cerebus is worthless. It has some meaning and more than many other books. However, the high price is mostly due to the low supply.

 

Let try to see if an example brings it home for you:

 

If 1.000.000 people think book A has the most important character while 5 people think book B has the most important character.

 

Then which book objectively has the most important character?

 

---

 

Good...

 

Now, let's add this information:

 

There are printed 2.000.000 copies of book A.

 

There are printed 2 copies of book B.

 

Which book might fetch the highest price?

 

It might very well be book B - simply because there is not enough supply to satisfy demand. Market Theory 101.

 

However, as was demonstrated, that does NOT mean that book B is the more important book. Logic.

 

It's a close call. I see your logic, but give this a shot. Even though there are 50X more graded copies of the 181, there are 5 copies of Cerebus that are worth more than every single copy of 181, except the single 9.9, which is an anomaly. There was a great point made by Chuck earlier. You have $1000 to spend on either book and they both appear NM what comic do you go with? If money means anything to the buyer, it's a simple question to answer.

 

However, there are 8.5 Cerebus 1's on comiclink that aren't bid up anywhere near their 181 counterparts. This cannot be ignored either. There are merits to both sides, but if I had to pick a winner I know it's Cerebus #1 by a nose. Also important to remember and someone did bring it up earlier that Cerebus was ranked lower than 181 last year, and the new rankings were effective when the book was published a few months back before the 181's in 9.2 broke $3k. It's been a while since a highest or second highest Cerebus #1 has come to market, and this may cause a bidding war if one were brought to auction. If one of the 3 SS 9.4's were bumped, I would love to see the hammer price of a 9.6, or better yet a 9.8.

 

You are talking about price not importance. In terms of price the Cerebus might well be the highest priced. In fact it would be very strange if it wasn't because it is a meaningful book and print run was so much lower than 181. So if you want to declare a 'winner' in terms of price... it is probably the Cerebus, because of reasons similar to the ones outlined in the example above.

 

I was talking in terms of importance. E.g. which book contains the most important first appearance etc. And there the IH181 clearly wins.

[shadroch]

I still don't see why we all aren't entitled to our own set of facts. That would certainly end these fifty page debates.

[Lazyboy]

You are talking about price not importance.

 

In a thread about a book being "more valuable" than another? That's crazy!

 

That is the whole problem here. Some people cannot seem to differentiate between value, supply, demand, importance, etc. They may be linked, but they are still separate.

[porcupine48]

Okay,I'm off to bed.there best be at least ten more pages of courtroomesque battles when I come by to say silly stuff in the afternoon!!

[RockMyAmadeus]

Yes, logic is king. By the way, noone is saying that Cerebus is worthless.

 

That's good, because that would be contrary to established facts.

 

It has some meaning and more than many other books. However, the high price is mostly due to the low supply.

 

Says who?

 

How do you know that the high price is "mostly" due to the low supply? How do you determine which percentage of the sales price is due to demand, and which is due to the supply? Isn't it supply AND demand?

 

Because it is nearly impossible to determine how demand affects the final price of any item.

 

There are many, many books that are much, much rarer than Cerebus #1, and yet, they don't command the same prices. Why is that?

 

There are fewer Maxx #2 and #3 ashcans than Cerebus #1s....and yet, they're worth far, far less than it is. How is that so, since the supply is much lower?

 

There are only 100 copies each of the Vampirella Royal Blues, and yet, it's difficult to get $30 for most of them.

 

Let try to see if an example brings it home for you:

 

If 1.000.000 people think book A has the most important character while 5 people think book B has the most important character.

 

Then which book objectively has the most important character?

 

It is incorrect to use the word "objective" in conjunction with adjectives like "most important", "more desirable", "better", "best", etc, as those words are, by definition, used to make subjective value judgments.

 

Popularity does not determine truth. If 7 billion people believed that Howard the Duck was the most important character in comics, would that make it true?

 

Or would it rather be actual objective factors like sales figures, longevity, cross-media exposure and the like which determines importance?

 

That said, however, the issue is not, and never has been, which character is more important. No one, in the entire course of this discussion, has disputed the fact that Wolverine is a far, far more important character than Cerebus.

 

So, the example is moot.

 

Let's face facts, folks: you guys resent the fact that Cerebus #1 is more valuable than Hulk #181 in the highest grades. Admit it, and stop trying to defend it already.

 

---

 

Good...

 

Now, let's add this information:

 

There are printed 2.000.000 copies of book A.

 

There are printed 2 copies of book B.

 

Which book might fetch the highest price?

 

It might very well be book B - simply because there is not enough supply to satisfy demand. Market Theory 101.

 

You've apparently not heard of the fact that extreme rarity can actually hinder popularity, and thus the price, of an item. If an item is essentially unobtainable, it will be dismissed and ignored, because no one can actively collect it.

 

The 1804 dollar, with 15 examples floating around, is worth more than an 1870-S half dime, with only 1. You can own an 1804 dollar, if you have enough money. You cannot own an 1870-S half dime, for any price, until the owner decides to sell it.

 

However, as was demonstrated, that does NOT mean that book B is the more important book. Logic.

 

That's correct. We are all in agreement, and have never not been in agreement that Hulk #181 is a more important book to the comics hobby than Cerebus #1.

 

What you're not understanding is that this discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with which character or book is more important.

 

But I thank you for your response.

[RockMyAmadeus]

And I thank you, stupid CGC board, for screwing up that submission and making me type it twice.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

This has been so painful to read.

 

Edit: Sorry RMA. I can't even imagine how you've been so calm.

 

It's an excellent training ground to develop the discipline of patience.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

You are talking about price not importance. In terms of price the Cerebus might well be the highest priced.

 

That's the entire point of this discussion.

 

This entire thread has been a discussion about why Cerebus #1 is higher priced than Hulk #181 in the highest grade reported by the OPG.

 

What thread have you been reading...?

 

:shrug:

[RockMyAmadeus]

It's a close call. I see your logic, but give this a shot. Even though there are 50X more graded copies of the 181, there are 5 copies of Cerebus that are worth more than every single copy of 181, except the single 9.9, which is an anomaly. There was a great point made by Chuck earlier. You have $1000 to spend on either book and they both appear NM what comic do you go with? If money means anything to the buyer, it's a simple question to answer.

 

However, there are 8.5 Cerebus 1's on comiclink that aren't bid up anywhere near their 181 counterparts. This cannot be ignored either.

 

Why can't it be ignored? The discussion isn't about the value of the two books across all grades. The discussion is about which book is the MOST valuable, in the HIGHEST grade the OPG reports.

 

There are merits to both sides,

 

Both sides of WHAT? No one is disputing that Cerebus #1 is less valuable than Hulk #181 in grades lower than 9.0.

 

We're all on the same side.

 

but if I had to pick a winner I know it's Cerebus #1 by a nose. Also important to remember and someone did bring it up earlier that Cerebus was ranked lower than 181 last year, and the new rankings were effective when the book was published a few months back before the 181's in 9.2 broke $3k.

 

GPA is only one source of information that the OPG uses to determine values. Rankings in the OPG are determined by the OPG, using whatever data they find relevant. Rankings may change next year, or they may not. But they will not be based solely on the public sale of slabbed copies, as recorded at GPA.

[AlexanderM]

Yes, logic is king. By the way, noone is saying that Cerebus is worthless.

 

That's good, because that would be contrary to established facts.

 

It has some meaning and more than many other books. However, the high price is mostly due to the low supply.

 

Says who?

 

How do you know that the high price is "mostly" due to the low supply? How do you determine which percentage of the sales price is due to demand, and which is due to the supply? Isn't it supply AND demand?

 

Because it is nearly impossible to determine how demand affects the final price of any item.

 

There are many, many books that are much, much rarer than Cerebus #1, and yet, they don't command the same prices. Why is that?

 

There are fewer Maxx #2 and #3 ashcans than Cerebus #1s....and yet, they're worth far, far less than it is. How is that so, since the supply is much lower?

 

There are only 100 copies each of the Vampirella Royal Blues, and yet, it's difficult to get $30 for most of them.

 

Let try to see if an example brings it home for you:

 

If 1.000.000 people think book A has the most important character while 5 people think book B has the most important character.

 

Then which book objectively has the most important character?

 

It is incorrect to use the word "objective" in conjunction with adjectives like "most important", "more desirable", "better", "best", etc, as those words are, by definition, used to make subjective value judgments.

 

Popularity does not determine truth. If 7 billion people believed that Howard the Duck was the most important character in comics, would that make it true?

 

Or would it rather be actual objective factors like sales figures, longevity, cross-media exposure and the like which determines importance?

 

That said, however, the issue is not, and never has been, which character is more important. No one, in the entire course of this discussion, has disputed the fact that Wolverine is a far, far more important character than Cerebus.

 

So, the example is moot.

 

Let's face facts, folks: you guys resent the fact that Cerebus #1 is more valuable than Hulk #181 in the highest grades. Admit it, and stop trying to defend it already.

 

---

 

Good...

 

Now, let's add this information:

 

There are printed 2.000.000 copies of book A.

 

There are printed 2 copies of book B.

 

Which book might fetch the highest price?

 

It might very well be book B - simply because there is not enough supply to satisfy demand. Market Theory 101.

 

You've apparently not heard of the fact that extreme rarity can actually hinder popularity, and thus the price, of an item. If an item is essentially unobtainable, it will be dismissed and ignored, because no one can actively collect it.

 

The 1804 dollar, with 15 examples floating around, is worth more than an 1870-S half dime, with only 1. You can own an 1804 dollar, if you have enough money. You cannot own an 1870-S half dime, for any price, until the owner decides to sell it.

 

However, as was demonstrated, that does NOT mean that book B is the more important book. Logic.

 

That's correct. We are all in agreement, and have never not been in agreement that Hulk #181 is a more important book to the comics hobby than Cerebus #1.

 

What you're not understanding is that this discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with which character or book is more important.

 

But I thank you for your response.

 

Probably you only read some of the posts. Several people discussed which book was a major key or not.

 

Key status is determined by importance. . Not value. So obviously we began also discussing importance at some point in the thread.

 

Which book is currently more valuable makes little sense to discuss. We can look at the GPA and it shows that whenever there are far far fewer copies of cerebus it is the more valuable book. That is nothing to really discuss.

 

So the point stands. Cerebus is more valuable in most grades. But solely because it is far more scarce and despite being a less important book.

 

 

[FlyingDonut]

After reading all of this, just a note - I will trade a 9.2 or 9.4 Hulk 181 for a 9.2 or 9.4 Cerebus 1 any day of the week. Straight up.

What about a 9.9 Cerebus #1?

 

Would you trade it straight up for a 9.9 Hulk #181?

 

Yes. But a 9.9 Cerebus 1 doesn't exist.

[THB]

And why is GL 76 still #2 on this list. Hulk 181 8.0's almost sell for double what the 76's fetch. What off the beaten path LCS is providing OPG with these #'s? Who has the Neal Adams man crush?

 

 

That's the white elephant in the room that has been ignored. Folks like RMA would rather point out the merits of another poster's auto correct ("Cerberus" vs. "Cerebus", my phone doesn't care either, my man) or how they choose to abbreviate "Overstreet", than the fact that about the only thing Overstreet is good for at this point is maintaining the status quo for old school collectors and giving local dealers something to low ball you with when you try to sell your books. It's great that some dealers can anecdotally recount how well their copies of Cerebus sell when they have them, there will always be a buyer for a book at some price. But again, if the book had an availability that was half (or even a quarter?) of Hulk 181, It would likely not be of any interest to even the niche collectors who like to feel like they have something "rare" in their collections.

 

Essentially the true "value" of the book is skewed mightily by the low print and nothing else. The value of hulk 181 is intrinsic and real. If Hulk 181 had the same print run as Cerebus it would probably be a 250k book in a 9.4. If Cerebus had the same print run as Hulk 181 it would probably be a 20 dollar book. I believe that is the point others have been trying to make when expressing bewilderment about Overstreet's list.

 

And no, hulk 181 hasn't "slowed". It's actually having its best year from a price appreciation standpoint in a long time. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

This post really sums the situation up nicely.

 

The argument about price to defend why ceres is important is not valid. Yes, it is expensive. But that has to do with the low print run and NOT because it is so sought after by a lot of people. Like you say..if they were equal print runs there would be a world of difference.

 

Few people want the book but because of the low print run the value is such that the meager demand still is greater than the even more meager supply...therefore from a business pow we would like to have the book because we know it can sell for a high price.

 

But again...not because it's an important character...because it has a low print run..

 

Why is there such a surplus of people willing to chuck reason out the window...?

 

:shrug:

 

The entire post you just said "summed up the situation nicely" is absolutely filled with bad reasoning, flawed understanding, and borderline libel.

 

And then, you add your own to it!

 

 

There are PLENTY of books that have print runs AND census counts AS LOW, or LOWER than Cerebus #1...but they do NOT sell for four figures in 9.0+.

 

NO ONE is arguing that Cerebus #1 (not "ceres") is important because of its value. The argument is that Cerebus #1 has value because it is important

 

It is supply AND DEMAND which runs a market. Why does that demand exist? Do you know the history of Cerebus, and how it influenced the comics industry?

 

Do you really believe what you just posted...?

 

Oy, people, come ON! Why do you post such things, for all the world to see?

 

Gentlemen...we MUST use reason!

 

Yes, logic is king. By the way, noone is saying that Cerebus is worthless. It has some meaning and more than many other books. However, the high price is mostly due to the low supply.

 

Let try to see if an example brings it home for you:

 

If 1.000.000 people think book A has the most important character while 5 people think book B has the most important character.

 

Then which book objectively has the most important character?

 

---

 

Good...

 

Now, let's add this information:

 

There are printed 2.000.000 copies of book A.

 

There are printed 2 copies of book B.

 

Which book might fetch the highest price?

 

It might very well be book B - simply because there is not enough supply to satisfy demand. Market Theory 101.

 

However, as was demonstrated, that does NOT mean that book B is the more important book. Logic.

 

It's a close call. I see your logic, but give this a shot. Even though there are 50X more graded copies of the 181, there are 5 copies of Cerebus that are worth more than every single copy of 181, except the single 9.9, which is an anomaly. There was a great point made by Chuck earlier. You have $1000 to spend on either book and they both appear NM what comic do you go with? If money means anything to the buyer, it's a simple question to answer.

 

However, there are 8.5 Cerebus 1's on comiclink that aren't bid up anywhere near their 181 counterparts. This cannot be ignored either. There are merits to both sides, but if I had to pick a winner I know it's Cerebus #1 by a nose. Also important to remember and someone did bring it up earlier that Cerebus was ranked lower than 181 last year, and the new rankings were effective when the book was published a few months back before the 181's in 9.2 broke $3k. It's been a while since a highest or second highest Cerebus #1 has come to market, and this may cause a bidding war if one were brought to auction. If one of the 3 SS 9.4's were bumped, I would love to see the hammer price of a 9.6, or better yet a 9.8.

 

You are talking about price not importance. In terms of price the Cerebus might well be the highest priced. In fact it would be very strange if it wasn't because it is a meaningful book and print run was so much lower than 181. So if you want to declare a 'winner' in terms of price... it is probably the Cerebus, because of reasons similar to the ones outlined in the example above.

 

I was talking in terms of importance. E.g. which book contains the most important first appearance etc. And there the IH181 clearly wins.

 

If this about first appearances then Hulk # 180 would be the clear winner.

[Prince Namor]

 

Key status is determined by importance. . Not value.

It is? So who determine's 'importance'? The market? Well in this case the market has spoken.

 

Which book is currently more valuable makes little sense to discuss.

I can agree with that. The facts show support for what RMA is saying. It makes little sense to debate it, it is what it is. Only by changing the parameters of the what information is being discussed (which is what they've done) has anyone even been able to turn it into a discussion.

But regardless of if you or I think it is senseless to discuss or not, that WAS the OP's subject for discussion, and he's entitled to that.

 

We can look at the GPA and it shows that whenever there are far far fewer copies of cerebus it is the more valuable book. That is nothing to really discuss.

That's just not true at all. There are fewer copies at every grade level. From 8.5 on down Hulk #181 dominates in price. And it's one of the parameters that's been added to the topic to try and defend the death grip clinging nostalgia for the 'Wolverine'.

 

So the point stands. Cerebus is more valuable in most grades.

No. That is incorrect. And anyway, it is NOT, absolutely NOT, the argument that was being made.

Does anyone read what is actually being discussed or do they just wait for their turn to type?

 

But solely because it is far more scarce and despite being a less important book.

In the simplest terms, SCARCITY does NOT automatically increase value. Period.

It CAN influence value, if other factors like importance or popularity are added to it.

 

There are PLENTY of books more scarce than Cerebus #1 in 9.4 that wouldn't come ANYWHERE close to competing with IH181.

WHY?

Because they're NOT IMPORTANT.

The REASON Cerebus #1 in 9.0+ DOES, is because of it's IMPORTANCE AND SCARCITY.

 

Now Is it OVERALL more important than the first appearance of Wolverine.

Of course not. And no one is SAYING that.

NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT POINT.

Stand down defenders of nostalgia. Your childhood dreams are still safe.

 

What IS being said, is that based upon what information we have, it looks as though in 9.0 and up Cerebus #1 is selling for more than IH181.

Some people are upset at the thought that some book that they are less familiar with could compete with the 'Wolverine'.

Well, go buy a Hulk181 in 9.4 for $10,000 and you'll have your way.

Somebody else has already put THEIR money where their mouth is on a Cerebus #1.

 

Bottom line is this: You give any credible dealer the option to buy, only one of, either a 9.4 Hulk 181 or a 9.4 Cerebus #1 for $500, and they're going to take the Cerebus.

WHY?

Because they'll...MAKE MORE MONEY OFF OF IT.

 

WHY?

Because of it's DEMAND (popularity) combined with it's SCARCITY.

Hulk181 is in demand, but in this COMPARISON, they'll make MORE money off of the Cerebus #1.

 

HENSE.... the more VALUABLE of a book....

 

Now get this: If it WASN'T in demand (popular, wanted, desired) and have the possibility of selling for quite a bit MORE than the 9.4 Hulk181, but was still SCARCE.... the dealer wouldn't take that deal.

 

Get that? The SCARCITY is NOT what makes it more valuable.

It's the DEMAND (i.e. Popularity), added to the scarcity, that makes it valuable.

 

In HIGHER GRADE, the DEMAND for the limited number of Cerebus #1's, appears to make it a more valuable book than IH181.

 

More popular? Of course not.

 

But In HIGHER GRADE, the DEMAND for the limited number of Cerebus #1's, appears to make it a more valuable book than IH181.

[AlexanderM]

 

Key status is determined by importance. . Not value.

It is? So who determine's 'importance'? The market? Well in this case the market has spoken.

 

Which book is currently more valuable makes little sense to discuss.

I can agree with that. The facts show support for what RMA is saying. It makes little sense to debate it, it is what it is. Only by changing the parameters of the what information is being discussed (which is what they've done) has anyone even been able to turn it into a discussion.

But regardless of if you or I think it is senseless to discuss or not, that WAS the OP's subject for discussion, and he's entitled to that.

 

We can look at the GPA and it shows that whenever there are far far fewer copies of cerebus it is the more valuable book. That is nothing to really discuss.

That's just not true at all. There are fewer copies at every grade level. From 8.5 on down Hulk #181 dominates in price. And it's one of the parameters that's been added to the topic to try and defend the death grip clinging nostalgia for the 'Wolverine'.

 

So the point stands. Cerebus is more valuable in most grades.

No. That is incorrect. And anyway, it is NOT, absolutely NOT, the argument that was being made.

Does anyone read what is actually being discussed or do they just wait for their turn to type?

 

But solely because it is far more scarce and despite being a less important book.

In the simplest terms, SCARCITY does NOT automatically increase value. Period.

It CAN influence value, if other factors like importance or popularity are added to it.

 

There are PLENTY of books more scarce than Cerebus #1 in 9.4 that wouldn't come ANYWHERE close to competing with IH181.

WHY?

Because they're NOT IMPORTANT.

The REASON Cerebus #1 in 9.0+ DOES, is because of it's IMPORTANCE AND SCARCITY.

 

Now Is it OVERALL more important than the first appearance of Wolverine.

Of course not. And no one is SAYING that.

NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT POINT.

Stand down defenders of nostalgia. Your childhood dreams are still safe.

 

What IS being said, is that based upon what information we have, it looks as though in 9.0 and up Cerebus #1 is selling for more than IH181.

Some people are upset at the thought that some book that they are less familiar with could compete with the 'Wolverine'.

Well, go buy a Hulk181 in 9.4 for $10,000 and you'll have your way.

Somebody else has already put THEIR money where their mouth is on a Cerebus #1.

 

Bottom line is this: You give any credible dealer the option to buy, only one of, either a 9.4 Hulk 181 or a 9.4 Cerebus #1 for $500, and they're going to take the Cerebus.

WHY?

Because they'll...MAKE MORE MONEY OFF OF IT.

 

WHY?

Because of it's DEMAND (popularity) combined with it's SCARCITY.

Hulk181 is in demand, but in this COMPARISON, they'll make MORE money off of the Cerebus #1.

 

HENSE.... the more VALUABLE of a book....

 

Now get this: If it WASN'T in demand (popular, wanted, desired) and have the possibility of selling for quite a bit MORE than the 9.4 Hulk181, but was still SCARCE.... the dealer wouldn't take that deal.

 

Get that? The SCARCITY is NOT what makes it more valuable.

It's the DEMAND (i.e. Popularity), added to the scarcity, that makes it valuable.

 

In HIGHER GRADE, the DEMAND for the limited number of Cerebus #1's, appears to make it a more valuable book than IH181.

 

More popular? Of course not.

 

But In HIGHER GRADE, the DEMAND for the limited number of Cerebus #1's, appears to make it a more valuable book than IH181.

 

 

Chuck.

 

Let's keep it single..because it really is..

 

If there existed the same number of copies of the two... which book do you think would be more valuable?

 

...there is the answer...

 

To get more specific. Of course scarcity alone does not create value... that is why I said it is a meaningful book..be a use if it wasn't then even scarcity would not make it valuable.

 

However..the test of thinking of the two equally scare nonetheless will demonstrate quite clearly which one is the most important.

 

Btw. Usually I'm not childish enough to use face palms emoticons...but it seems to be your language.

[Prince Namor]

 

Chuck.

 

Let's keep it single..because it really is..

 

If there existed the same number of copies of the two... which book do you think would be more valuable?

 

...there is the answer...

 

NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT.

 

I even bolded it in my last post for you: In HIGHER GRADE, the DEMAND for the limited number of Cerebus #1's, appears to make it a more valuable book than IH181.

 

It can't be disputed without changing the parameters of the topic (i.e. If there were equal number of copies...)

 

Of course it wouldn't hold up! Of course IH181 would sell more copies. Wolverine is the most popular character of the modern era!

 

NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT.

 

But In HIGHER GRADE, the DEMAND for the limited number of Cerebus #1's, appears to make it a more valuable book than IH181.

 

 

To get more specific. Of course scarcity alone does not create value... that is why I said it is a meaningful book..be a use if it wasn't then even scarcity would not make it valuable.

 

No. You didn't. You said, and I quote: "Cerebus is more valuable in most grades. But solely because it is far more scarce and despite being a less important book."

 

You SPECIFICALLY stated, it was it's scarcity and NOT it's importance. You even used the word 'solely', as in the sole (only, lone) reason.

 

 

However..the test of thinking of the two equally scare nonetheless will demonstrate quite clearly which one is the most important.

 

You mean if they were equally scarce, IH181 would sell for more. No kidding! I agree!

 

NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT.

 

BUT, that's changing the parameters of the topic. It's NOT what is being said.

 

In HIGHER GRADE, the DEMAND for the limited number of Cerebus #1's, appears to make it a more valuable book than IH181.

 

Btw. Usually I'm not childish enough to use face palms emoticons...but it seems to be your language.

 

Said the guy who used a face palm anyway. Forum logic.

[Prince Namor]

Here's another way to look at it, so maybe you can understand.

 

ITEM A - 100% Popularity.

 

500 copies available - 500 people looking for it.

 

ITEM B - 50% Popularity.

 

10 copies available - 50 people looking for it.

 

Which is more Popular?

Which is more Valuable (Goes for the highest price)

 

Take the nostalgia out of it and it's pretty easy equation.

 

In HIGHER GRADE, the DEMAND for the limited number of ITEM B, appears to make it a more valuable book than ITEM A.