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Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87
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Started by bronze johnny,

1,571 posts in this topic

Prince Namor

Prince Namor

Posted
Posted

For Cerebus 1, a 9.4 is the "freak grade" (single highest).

Wow. :facepalm:

 

Wow is right. Especially since a 9.4 File Copy SS sold for $10,600 in 2004 and two others sold in-between that for $7700... it's averaged $8780 over a TEN YEAR PERIOD.

 

That's pretty amazing.

 

In that same time, Hulk #181 has topped out at $3300 for Blue Label and $4300 for SS over that same period.

 

If I was a dealer and I had the option to buy just one of them for $500 to flip....

 

Why WOULDN'T it be Cerebus?

 

If you think it has a shot at 9.4 or better, you take Cerebus and don't bat an eye. If its mid grade-VF you jump on the 181.

 

doh! Isn't this what you guys have been debating for all this time?

 

 

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here. Maybe an easier question would be why are both these books behind GL 76 on the list?

 

I can answer that with three words: Ryan Freaking Reynolds.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted

 

For Cerebus 1, a 9.4 is the "freak grade" (single highest). The lateral grade for hulk 181 would be the 9.9 (also the highest for that book).

 

No, sorry. The two are not comparable in any meaningful way. You cannot make the comparison you are attempting to make. It doesn't work that way.

 

9.4 is not a "freak grade", whether there are copies of a book in this grade or not.

 

9.9 is a freak grade for almost everything except mid-2000s IDW.

 

Hulk 181 has far more chances of getting a book in that grade because of its far greater print run than Cerebus. Again, this is the problem that the OP first mentioned with having these books on the same list and especially by having Cerebus ahead of hulk 181 on that list.

 

So I will grant you this much RMA: Yes, in a 9.4 grade (and that grade only), the five highest known graded (file?) copies of Cerebus 1 that have sold over the last decade have been higher than the 300+ copies of hulk 181 in 9.4 (with 300+ copies graded higher) have been over the same period of time.

 

However as of now, not even by the selective criterion used by overstreet (1 sale of 9.2 cerebus 1 in ten years??)

 

Stop making me repeat myself.

 

GPA is NOT the only source Overstreet uses.

 

does this make Cerebus 1 more "valuable" than hulk 181 (see recent 9.2 hulk 181 sale linked earlier in thread).

 

And since we have already established that hulk 181 sells for more than Cerebus 1 in literally every single grade (other than the 4 sales in 9.4),

 

Stop making me repeat myself.

 

You keep trying to compare a 2005 sale to a 2014 sale (and an obviously wack-a-doodle price, at that.) It doesn't work that way.

 

I am struggling to see what it is left that you're arguing for, other than your apparent pride and pride of ownership in your copy of Cerebus 1.

 

Yes, it makes sense that you would impute this to others, as I suspect this is how you, yourself, see things. You even assume I own a copy of Cerebus #1.

 

However, that is not the foundation for rational arguments.

 

You must be able to separate your personal feelings from the debate.

 

It's a concept that is called "intellectual honesty", and it's a rare thing, indeed. Most people argue from their biases, which is very sad.

 

Cerebus 1 has five highest graded copies that have periodically sold for more thank hulk 181 in a 9.4 grade does not equate to "Cerebus 1 is more valuable than hulk 181."

 

-J.

 

You're making me repeat myself.

 

That's a disingenuous statement, because that's not Overstreet's premise.

 

Overstreet's premise is "in the highest grade we report. Cerebus #1 is more valuable than Hulk #181."

 

And it is, demonstrably so.

 

Also, your statement leaves the implication that the 9.4s have periodically sold for LESS than Hulk #181 in 9.4, as well. This has not only never been true, but Cerebus #1 in 9.4 has sold for 2-3 TIMES what Hulk #181 ever has, ever, in the entire history of Hulk #181 9.4 sales.

 

Face it, guys. I know you don't like it, but the facts are what they are: due to the laws of supply and demand, in higher grades, Cerebus #1 is more valuable than Hulk #181. There's simply no getting around that.

 

"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." - Winston Churchill

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted

For Cerebus 1, a 9.4 is the "freak grade" (single highest).

Wow. :facepalm:

 

Yes wow. Wow for the selective data points (now down to a whopping four) that the few remaining Cerebus 1 apologists are using to rationalize a thoroughly defeated position. :tonofbricks:

 

-J.

 

"The truth is what I say it is."

 

 

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lou_fine

lou_fine

Posted
Posted
Jaydog;

 

I think you guys should just take a look at the OS guide for these 2 listings and admit that Overstreet got it right, based upon the following:

 

1) Hulk 181 is signficantly more valuable than Cerebus 1 in the lower grades, with this differential decreasing on a percentage basis as we move up the grading scale, which actually reflects the rising price of Cerebus 1 in the real world as it becomes more scarce in nicer condition;

 

2) Cerebus 1 is more valuable than Hulk 181 in the HG 9.2 condition, as clearly evident by comparable historical sales in 9.2 and above;

 

3) Overstreet does not attempt to place a valuation for uber HG copies, and in particular, not for CGC 9.9 copies of any book;

 

4) The prices in the OS guide are reflective of comic book valuations, as opposed to comic book popularity; and

 

5) These valuations are not based upon the quantities of a particular book sold, otherwise the latest newstand issue of Action Comics would be worth more than Action Comics #1.

 

I know and completely understand that it must be hard for you to accept the above facts, but it's totally okay and actually healthy for you to admit that you are wrong every now and then. lol

 

...and even in the world of Overstreet, using its own limited and selective methodology this is your game changer:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

-J.

 

Hey Jaydog;

 

You can't be serious here and must just be putting us on!

 

If not, then from your link above, it's ovbious to me that you have absolutlley no concept as to the meaning of the valuations in the OS guide. The current edition of the guide just came out last month and attempts to based their valuations on reported actual sales for the previous year (i.e. for the year 2013) as opposed to possible sales for the coming year.

 

The example from your link is for a auction that was completed on August 18th of the year 2014. This means that this sale should be reflected in next year's edition of the OS guide which is not due out until July of the year 2015. So yes, it is quite conceivable that next year's guide could indeed have Hulk 181 at a higher valuation than Cerebus 1 if there are continuing sales of 9.2 Hulk 181's at this same level and there are no 9.2 or higher Cerebus sales. On the other hand, I would have no problem with OS maintaining a higher valuation for Cerebus 1 if there are higher dollar value sales for Cerebus 1 or if the majority of the Hulk 181 sales for the balance of the year is not supported by this one particular sale at $3,199.

 

Now if this were the Wizard price guide you was referring to, I wouuld understand completely as they always attempted to forecast or set prices before they actually occurred. Particularly funny when they were caught with their undies down around their ankles as some of their supposedly Top 10 hot books were listed with huge price increases even when they had not yet hit the newsstand as they were late. :boo:

 

BTW: I am still waiting for you to countered my 5 points from above as your attached link certainly did not do the job.

 

I will, however, apologize and admit that you are completely right if you can prove to me and everybody else on the boards here that August 18, 2014 is part of the year 2013 or has taken place before 2013. :screwy:lol

 

 

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Jaydogrules

Jaydogrules

Posted
Posted
Jaydog;

 

I think you guys should just take a look at the OS guide for these 2 listings and admit that Overstreet got it right, based upon the following:

 

1) Hulk 181 is signficantly more valuable than Cerebus 1 in the lower grades, with this differential decreasing on a percentage basis as we move up the grading scale, which actually reflects the rising price of Cerebus 1 in the real world as it becomes more scarce in nicer condition;

 

2) Cerebus 1 is more valuable than Hulk 181 in the HG 9.2 condition, as clearly evident by comparable historical sales in 9.2 and above;

 

3) Overstreet does not attempt to place a valuation for uber HG copies, and in particular, not for CGC 9.9 copies of any book;

 

4) The prices in the OS guide are reflective of comic book valuations, as opposed to comic book popularity; and

 

5) These valuations are not based upon the quantities of a particular book sold, otherwise the latest newstand issue of Action Comics would be worth more than Action Comics #1.

 

I know and completely understand that it must be hard for you to accept the above facts, but it's totally okay and actually healthy for you to admit that you are wrong every now and then. lol

 

...and even in the world of Overstreet, using its own limited and selective methodology this is your game changer:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

-J.

 

Hey Jaydog;

 

You can't be serious here and must just be putting us on!

 

If not, then from your link above, it's ovbious to me that you have absolutlley no concept as to the meaning of the valuations in the OS guide. The current edition of the guide just came out last month and attempts to based their valuations on reported actual sales for the previous year (i.e. for the year 2013) as opposed to possible sales for the coming year.

 

The example from your link is for a auction that was completed on August 18th of the year 2014. This means that this sale should be reflected in next year's edition of the OS guide which is not due out until July of the year 2015. So yes, it is quite conceivable that next year's guide could indeed have Hulk 181 at a higher valuation than Cerebus 1 if there are continuing sales of 9.2 Hulk 181's at this same level and there are no 9.2 or higher Cerebus sales. On the other hand, I would have no problem with OS maintaining a higher valuation for Cerebus 1 if there are higher dollar value sales for Cerebus 1 or if the majority of the Hulk 181 sales for the balance of the year is not supported by this one particular sale at $3,199.

 

Now if this were the Wizard price guide you was referring to, I wouuld understand completely as they always attempted to forecast or set prices before they actually occurred. Particularly funny when they were caught with their undies down around their ankles as some of their supposedly Top 10 hot books were listed with huge price increases even when they had not yet hit the newsstand as they were late. :boo:

 

BTW: I am still waiting for you to countered my 5 points from above as your attached link certainly did not do the job.

 

I will, however, apologize and admit that you are completely right if you can prove to me and everybody else on the boards here that August 18, 2014 is part of the year 2013 or has taken place before 2013. :screwy:lol

 

 

I will bow to this point my good man. :shy:

 

-J.

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porcupine48

porcupine48

Posted
Posted
This thread is making me emotional.

Does that prove that I exist?

 

“Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent.”

― Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian, or the Evening Redness in the West

oooh,i like that one!

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lou_fine

lou_fine

Posted
Posted
Jaydog;

 

I think you guys should just take a look at the OS guide for these 2 listings and admit that Overstreet got it right, based upon the following:

 

1) Hulk 181 is signficantly more valuable than Cerebus 1 in the lower grades, with this differential decreasing on a percentage basis as we move up the grading scale, which actually reflects the rising price of Cerebus 1 in the real world as it becomes more scarce in nicer condition;

 

2) Cerebus 1 is more valuable than Hulk 181 in the HG 9.2 condition, as clearly evident by comparable historical sales in 9.2 and above;

 

3) Overstreet does not attempt to place a valuation for uber HG copies, and in particular, not for CGC 9.9 copies of any book;

 

4) The prices in the OS guide are reflective of comic book valuations, as opposed to comic book popularity; and

 

5) These valuations are not based upon the quantities of a particular book sold, otherwise the latest newstand issue of Action Comics would be worth more than Action Comics #1.

 

I know and completely understand that it must be hard for you to accept the above facts, but it's totally okay and actually healthy for you to admit that you are wrong every now and then. lol

 

...and even in the world of Overstreet, using its own limited and selective methodology this is your game changer:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

-J.

 

Hey Jaydog;

 

You can't be serious here and must just be putting us on!

 

If not, then from your link above, it's ovbious to me that you have absolutlley no concept as to the meaning of the valuations in the OS guide. The current edition of the guide just came out last month and attempts to based their valuations on reported actual sales for the previous year (i.e. for the year 2013) as opposed to possible sales for the coming year.

 

The example from your link is for a auction that was completed on August 18th of the year 2014. This means that this sale should be reflected in next year's edition of the OS guide which is not due out until July of the year 2015. So yes, it is quite conceivable that next year's guide could indeed have Hulk 181 at a higher valuation than Cerebus 1 if there are continuing sales of 9.2 Hulk 181's at this same level and there are no 9.2 or higher Cerebus sales. On the other hand, I would have no problem with OS maintaining a higher valuation for Cerebus 1 if there are higher dollar value sales for Cerebus 1 or if the majority of the Hulk 181 sales for the balance of the year is not supported by this one particular sale at $3,199.

 

Now if this were the Wizard price guide you was referring to, I wouuld understand completely as they always attempted to forecast or set prices before they actually occurred. Particularly funny when they were caught with their undies down around their ankles as some of their supposedly Top 10 hot books were listed with huge price increases even when they had not yet hit the newsstand as they were late. :boo:

 

BTW: I am still waiting for you to countered my 5 points from above as your attached link certainly did not do the job.

 

I will, however, apologize and admit that you are completely right if you can prove to me and everybody else on the boards here that August 18, 2014 is part of the year 2013 or has taken place before 2013. :screwy:lol

 

 

I will bow to this point my good man. :shy:

 

-J.

 

See, I knew you was putting us on and just trying to rile us up!

 

Too bad as I thought the fun was just beginning. lol

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
Jaydog;

 

I think you guys should just take a look at the OS guide for these 2 listings and admit that Overstreet got it right, based upon the following:

 

1) Hulk 181 is signficantly more valuable than Cerebus 1 in the lower grades, with this differential decreasing on a percentage basis as we move up the grading scale, which actually reflects the rising price of Cerebus 1 in the real world as it becomes more scarce in nicer condition;

 

2) Cerebus 1 is more valuable than Hulk 181 in the HG 9.2 condition, as clearly evident by comparable historical sales in 9.2 and above;

 

3) Overstreet does not attempt to place a valuation for uber HG copies, and in particular, not for CGC 9.9 copies of any book;

 

4) The prices in the OS guide are reflective of comic book valuations, as opposed to comic book popularity; and

 

5) These valuations are not based upon the quantities of a particular book sold, otherwise the latest newstand issue of Action Comics would be worth more than Action Comics #1.

 

I know and completely understand that it must be hard for you to accept the above facts, but it's totally okay and actually healthy for you to admit that you are wrong every now and then. lol

 

...and even in the world of Overstreet, using its own limited and selective methodology this is your game changer:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

-J.

 

Hey Jaydog;

 

You can't be serious here and must just be putting us on!

 

If not, then from your link above, it's ovbious to me that you have absolutlley no concept as to the meaning of the valuations in the OS guide. The current edition of the guide just came out last month and attempts to based their valuations on reported actual sales for the previous year (i.e. for the year 2013) as opposed to possible sales for the coming year.

 

The example from your link is for a auction that was completed on August 18th of the year 2014. This means that this sale should be reflected in next year's edition of the OS guide which is not due out until July of the year 2015. So yes, it is quite conceivable that next year's guide could indeed have Hulk 181 at a higher valuation than Cerebus 1 if there are continuing sales of 9.2 Hulk 181's at this same level and there are no 9.2 or higher Cerebus sales. On the other hand, I would have no problem with OS maintaining a higher valuation for Cerebus 1 if there are higher dollar value sales for Cerebus 1 or if the majority of the Hulk 181 sales for the balance of the year is not supported by this one particular sale at $3,199.

 

Now if this were the Wizard price guide you was referring to, I wouuld understand completely as they always attempted to forecast or set prices before they actually occurred. Particularly funny when they were caught with their undies down around their ankles as some of their supposedly Top 10 hot books were listed with huge price increases even when they had not yet hit the newsstand as they were late. :boo:

 

BTW: I am still waiting for you to countered my 5 points from above as your attached link certainly did not do the job.

 

I will, however, apologize and admit that you are completely right if you can prove to me and everybody else on the boards here that August 18, 2014 is part of the year 2013 or has taken place before 2013. :screwy:lol

 

 

I will bow to this point my good man. :shy:

 

-J.

 

See, I knew you was putting us on and just trying to rile us up!

 

Too bad as I thought the fun was just beginning. lol

 

hm

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
After reading all of this, just a note - I will trade a 9.2 or 9.4 Hulk 181 for a 9.2 or 9.4 Cerebus 1 any day of the week. Straight up.

 

And that pretty much says it all. Knowing what we know, why WOULDN'T someone do that?

 

Because Cerebus is just a dumb aardvark that no one cares about, while Wolverine is SUPER AWESOME COOL AWESOME HOT COOL!

 

Don't you know ANYTHING??

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AlexanderM

AlexanderM

Posted
Posted (edited)
And why is GL 76 still #2 on this list. Hulk 181 8.0's almost sell for double what the 76's fetch. What off the beaten path LCS is providing OPG with these #'s? Who has the Neal Adams man crush?

:sumo:

 

 

That's the white elephant in the room that has been ignored. Folks like RMA would rather point out the merits of another poster's auto correct ("Cerberus" vs. "Cerebus", my phone doesn't care either, my man) or how they choose to abbreviate "Overstreet", than the fact that about the only thing Overstreet is good for at this point is maintaining the status quo for old school collectors and giving local dealers something to low ball you with when you try to sell your books. It's great that some dealers can anecdotally recount how well their copies of Cerebus sell when they have them, there will always be a buyer for a book at some price. But again, if the book had an availability that was half (or even a quarter?) of Hulk 181, It would likely not be of any interest to even the niche collectors who like to feel like they have something "rare" in their collections.

 

Essentially the true "value" of the book is skewed mightily by the low print and nothing else. The value of hulk 181 is intrinsic and real. If Hulk 181 had the same print run as Cerebus it would probably be a 250k book in a 9.4. If Cerebus had the same print run as Hulk 181 it would probably be a 20 dollar book. I believe that is the point others have been trying to make when expressing bewilderment about Overstreet's list.

 

And no, hulk 181 hasn't "slowed". It's actually having its best year from a price appreciation standpoint in a long time. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

This post really sums the situation up nicely.

 

The argument about price to defend why ceres is important is not valid. Yes, it is expensive. But that has to do with the low print run and NOT because it is so sought after by a lot of people. Like you say..if they were equal print runs there would be a world of difference.

 

Few people want the book but because of the low print run the value is such that the meager demand still is greater than the even more meager supply...therefore from a business pow we would like to have the book because we know it can sell for a high price.

 

But again...not because it's an important character...because it has a low print run..

Edited by AlexanderM
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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
And why is GL 76 still #2 on this list. Hulk 181 8.0's almost sell for double what the 76's fetch. What off the beaten path LCS is providing OPG with these #'s? Who has the Neal Adams man crush?

:sumo:

 

 

That's the white elephant in the room that has been ignored. Folks like RMA would rather point out the merits of another poster's auto correct ("Cerberus" vs. "Cerebus", my phone doesn't care either, my man) or how they choose to abbreviate "Overstreet", than the fact that about the only thing Overstreet is good for at this point is maintaining the status quo for old school collectors and giving local dealers something to low ball you with when you try to sell your books. It's great that some dealers can anecdotally recount how well their copies of Cerebus sell when they have them, there will always be a buyer for a book at some price. But again, if the book had an availability that was half (or even a quarter?) of Hulk 181, It would likely not be of any interest to even the niche collectors who like to feel like they have something "rare" in their collections.

 

Essentially the true "value" of the book is skewed mightily by the low print and nothing else. The value of hulk 181 is intrinsic and real. If Hulk 181 had the same print run as Cerebus it would probably be a 250k book in a 9.4. If Cerebus had the same print run as Hulk 181 it would probably be a 20 dollar book. I believe that is the point others have been trying to make when expressing bewilderment about Overstreet's list.

 

And no, hulk 181 hasn't "slowed". It's actually having its best year from a price appreciation standpoint in a long time. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

This post really sums the situation up nicely.

 

The argument about price to defend why ceres is important is not valid. Yes, it is expensive. But that has to do with the low print run and NOT because it is so sought after by a lot of people. Like you say..if they were equal print runs there would be a world of difference.

 

Few people want the book but because of the low print run the value is such that the meager demand still is greater than the even more meager supply...therefore from a business pow we would like to have the book because we know it can sell for a high price.

 

But again...not because it's an important character...because it has a low print run..

 

Why is there such a surplus of people willing to chuck reason out the window...?

 

:shrug:

 

The entire post you just said "summed up the situation nicely" is absolutely filled with bad reasoning, flawed understanding, and borderline libel.

 

And then, you add your own to it!

 

:facepalm:

 

There are PLENTY of books that have print runs AND census counts AS LOW, or LOWER than Cerebus #1...but they do NOT sell for four figures in 9.0+.

 

NO ONE is arguing that Cerebus #1 (not "ceres") is important because of its value. The argument is that Cerebus #1 has value because it is important

 

It is supply AND DEMAND which runs a market. Why does that demand exist? Do you know the history of Cerebus, and how it influenced the comics industry?

 

Do you really believe what you just posted...?

 

Oy, people, come ON! Why do you post such things, for all the world to see?

 

Gentlemen...we MUST use reason!

 

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