Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87 3 3

[RockMyAmadeus]

Yes, logic is king. By the way, noone is saying that Cerebus is worthless.

 

That's good, because that would be contrary to established facts.

 

It has some meaning and more than many other books. However, the high price is mostly due to the low supply.

 

Says who?

 

How do you know that the high price is "mostly" due to the low supply? How do you determine which percentage of the sales price is due to demand, and which is due to the supply? Isn't it supply AND demand?

 

Because it is nearly impossible to determine how demand affects the final price of any item.

 

There are many, many books that are much, much rarer than Cerebus #1, and yet, they don't command the same prices. Why is that?

 

There are fewer Maxx #2 and #3 ashcans than Cerebus #1s....and yet, they're worth far, far less than it is. How is that so, since the supply is much lower?

 

There are only 100 copies each of the Vampirella Royal Blues, and yet, it's difficult to get $30 for most of them.

 

Let try to see if an example brings it home for you:

 

If 1.000.000 people think book A has the most important character while 5 people think book B has the most important character.

 

Then which book objectively has the most important character?

 

It is incorrect to use the word "objective" in conjunction with adjectives like "most important", "more desirable", "better", "best", etc, as those words are, by definition, used to make subjective value judgments.

 

Popularity does not determine truth. If 7 billion people believed that Howard the Duck was the most important character in comics, would that make it true?

 

Or would it rather be actual objective factors like sales figures, longevity, cross-media exposure and the like which determines importance?

 

That said, however, the issue is not, and never has been, which character is more important. No one, in the entire course of this discussion, has disputed the fact that Wolverine is a far, far more important character than Cerebus.

 

So, the example is moot.

 

Let's face facts, folks: you guys resent the fact that Cerebus #1 is more valuable than Hulk #181 in the highest grades. Admit it, and stop trying to defend it already.

 

---

 

Good...

 

Now, let's add this information:

 

There are printed 2.000.000 copies of book A.

 

There are printed 2 copies of book B.

 

Which book might fetch the highest price?

 

It might very well be book B - simply because there is not enough supply to satisfy demand. Market Theory 101.

 

You've apparently not heard of the fact that extreme rarity can actually hinder popularity, and thus the price, of an item. If an item is essentially unobtainable, it will be dismissed and ignored, because no one can actively collect it.

 

The 1804 dollar, with 15 examples floating around, is worth more than an 1870-S half dime, with only 1. You can own an 1804 dollar, if you have enough money. You cannot own an 1870-S half dime, for any price, until the owner decides to sell it.

 

However, as was demonstrated, that does NOT mean that book B is the more important book. Logic.

 

That's correct. We are all in agreement, and have never not been in agreement that Hulk #181 is a more important book to the comics hobby than Cerebus #1.

 

What you're not understanding is that this discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with which character or book is more important.

 

But I thank you for your response.

 

Probably you only read some of the posts. Several people discussed which book was a major key or not.

 

No, I read all of them. The contention isn't which book is a "major key" or not.

 

Key status is determined by importance. . Not value. So obviously we began also discussing importance at some point in the thread.

 

That's fine...we're all in agreement. No one in this thread has disputed that Hulk #181 is a more important book than Cerebus #1.

 

Moving on, then..?

 

Which book is currently more valuable makes little sense to discuss.

 

And yet, it's the premise of this entire thread. I guess you haven't read all the posts in this thread...?

 

 

We can look at the GPA and it shows that whenever there are far far fewer copies of cerebus it is the more valuable book. That is nothing to really discuss.

 

Agreed.

 

So the point stands. Cerebus is more valuable in most grades. But solely because it is far more scarce and despite being a less important book.

 

 

Agreed, except that Cerebus #1 is more valuable in the highest grades, not the most.

[RockMyAmadeus]

After reading all of this, just a note - I will trade a 9.2 or 9.4 Hulk 181 for a 9.2 or 9.4 Cerebus 1 any day of the week. Straight up.

What about a 9.9 Cerebus #1?

 

Would you trade it straight up for a 9.9 Hulk #181?

 

Yes. But a 9.9 Cerebus 1 doesn't exist.

 

 

You know I was foolin', right...?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Key status is determined by importance. . Not value.

It is? So who determine's 'importance'? The market? Well in this case the market has spoken.

 

Which book is currently more valuable makes little sense to discuss.

I can agree with that. The facts show support for what RMA is saying. It makes little sense to debate it, it is what it is. Only by changing the parameters of the what information is being discussed (which is what they've done) has anyone even been able to turn it into a discussion.

But regardless of if you or I think it is senseless to discuss or not, that WAS the OP's subject for discussion, and he's entitled to that.

 

We can look at the GPA and it shows that whenever there are far far fewer copies of cerebus it is the more valuable book. That is nothing to really discuss.

That's just not true at all. There are fewer copies at every grade level. From 8.5 on down Hulk #181 dominates in price. And it's one of the parameters that's been added to the topic to try and defend the death grip clinging nostalgia for the 'Wolverine'.

 

So the point stands. Cerebus is more valuable in most grades.

No. That is incorrect. And anyway, it is NOT, absolutely NOT, the argument that was being made.

Does anyone read what is actually being discussed or do they just wait for their turn to type?

 

But solely because it is far more scarce and despite being a less important book.

In the simplest terms, SCARCITY does NOT automatically increase value. Period.

It CAN influence value, if other factors like importance or popularity are added to it.

 

There are PLENTY of books more scarce than Cerebus #1 in 9.4 that wouldn't come ANYWHERE close to competing with IH181.

WHY?

Because they're NOT IMPORTANT.

The REASON Cerebus #1 in 9.0+ DOES, is because of it's IMPORTANCE AND SCARCITY.

 

Now Is it OVERALL more important than the first appearance of Wolverine.

Of course not. And no one is SAYING that.

NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT POINT.

Stand down defenders of nostalgia. Your childhood dreams are still safe.

 

What IS being said, is that based upon what information we have, it looks as though in 9.0 and up Cerebus #1 is selling for more than IH181.

Some people are upset at the thought that some book that they are less familiar with could compete with the 'Wolverine'.

Well, go buy a Hulk181 in 9.4 for $10,000 and you'll have your way.

Somebody else has already put THEIR money where their mouth is on a Cerebus #1.

 

Bottom line is this: You give any credible dealer the option to buy, only one of, either a 9.4 Hulk 181 or a 9.4 Cerebus #1 for $500, and they're going to take the Cerebus.

WHY?

Because they'll...MAKE MORE MONEY OFF OF IT.

 

WHY?

Because of it's DEMAND (popularity) combined with it's SCARCITY.

Hulk181 is in demand, but in this COMPARISON, they'll make MORE money off of the Cerebus #1.

 

HENSE.... the more VALUABLE of a book....

 

Now get this: If it WASN'T in demand (popular, wanted, desired) and have the possibility of selling for quite a bit MORE than the 9.4 Hulk181, but was still SCARCE.... the dealer wouldn't take that deal.

 

Get that? The SCARCITY is NOT what makes it more valuable.

It's the DEMAND (i.e. Popularity), added to the scarcity, that makes it valuable.

 

In HIGHER GRADE, the DEMAND for the limited number of Cerebus #1's, appears to make it a more valuable book than IH181.

 

More popular? Of course not.

 

But In HIGHER GRADE, the DEMAND for the limited number of Cerebus #1's, appears to make it a more valuable book than IH181.

 

Chuck's on the warpath. Y'all making irrational arguments best watch out.

 

 

Let's say this again, because it is paramount:

 

Scarcity alone does not make anything valuable.

 

There must, must, must, must, MUST be something ELSE in addition to scarcity to make something valued, and thus valuable.

[RockMyAmadeus]

If there were 2000 copies of Spawn 1, can you imagine the price it would go for?

 

The B&W Spawn #1 is reputed to be limited to 2,000 copies, and look what it sells for...

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

If there were 2000 copies of Spawn 1, can you imagine the price it would go for?

 

The B&W Spawn #1 is reputed to be limited to 2,000 copies, and look what it sells for...

 

 

RMA, what, no lengthy semantical dissection of my weighted analysis of Hulk 181 versus cerebus 1 in all grades that you were asking for? I'm disappointed.....

 

-J.

[jjonahjameson1]

Is it too late to say this thread has jumped the shark?

[jaeldubyoo]

If there were 2000 copies of Spawn 1, can you imagine the price it would go for?

 

The B&W Spawn #1 is reputed to be limited to 2,000 copies, and look what it sells for...

 

 

Apples and oranges. How many more were kept? And in nice condition?

[bababooey]

Is it too late to say this thread has jumped the shark?

Pic stolen from Dr Balls

[Jaydogrules]

If there were 2000 copies of Spawn 1, can you imagine the price it would go for?

 

The B&W Spawn #1 is reputed to be limited to 2,000 copies, and look what it sells for...

 

 

RMA, what, no lengthy semantical dissection of my weighted analysis of Hulk 181 versus cerebus 1 in all grades that you were asking for? I'm disappointed.....

 

-J.

 

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Actually Alexander as of now cerebus is only more "valuable" than hulk 181 in exactly ONE grade.....A 9.4.

 

This isn't true, you know this isn't true, it's been explained repeatedly why this isn't true, but you keep on repeating things that aren't true.

 

Jaydog, why do you keep doing this? It has been explained why this isn't true, yet you keep repeating it as if it is.

 

Why?

 

Are you aware you're doing it? Are you a student of propaganda, which says to just lie, lie, lie, and the longer and more boldly and often you lie, the more likely it is to be believed?

 

What you have said IS NOT TRUE. The 9.2 price you're comparing is from 2005, and you're comparing it to a price from 2014. You CANNOT make that comparison without including that information. It is DISHONEST to continue to do so.

 

If a 9.6 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4? If a 9.8 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4?

 

If you are interested in being taken seriously around here, stop repeating things that are patently untrue.

 

So essentially the pro-cerebus argument at this point is that those 3 highest graded cerebus 1's that have sold three times in ten years for up to 10k, warrant the book being ranked higher on overstreet's list.

 

There are five 9.4 Cerebus #1s, not three. The book has sold four times, as recorded at GPA, in ten years, not three. Details matter.

 

And as stated multiple times, in multiple ways, no, that is NOT the argument that is being made. GPA data is just one source that the OPG uses to determine values.

 

The fact that hulk 181 blows it out of the water in literally every single other grade, even though there are 50 times more copies of it out there apparently counts for nothing.

 

Hulk #181 does NOT "blow it out of the water" in any grade above 9.0.

 

The pro-cerebus folks

 

 

There aren't "pro-cerebus" folks. There are "pro-fact", "pro-reason", "pro-logic" folks.

 

don't care to acknowledge the great likelihood that those three 9.4 cerebus 1's, when available, get bid up by fans who are chasing "single highest graded" books as trophy pieces for their collection.

 

So? Is demand more or less valid based on why it exists? "Oh, THAT price doesn't count, because he's buying it as a trophy piece!"...?

 

And "single highest graded" means there is ONE copy at the highest grade. "Single" refers to the quantity of the slabs, not the quality of the height.

 

Kind of like that 9.6 GL 76. Or even the 9.9 ASM 194 that went for 5k, I believe on heritage recently. A 9.8 of the same ASM 194 drops all the way down to about $850. Methinks a similar phenomenon would explain why cerebus 1 is such a non factor in every single grade that isn't the single highest grade....

 

No. It doesn't work that way.

 

So let's talk about those "single highest graded" book collectors. What were they willing to pay for that in a hulk 181. $150k is what they were willing to pay. Sorry folks, it is an apt comparison.

 

Sorry, Jaydog, but it's not. But you keep repeating it, and I'll keep disputing it.

 

For whatever reason, cerebus 1 is not available past a 9.4. For cerebus a 9.4 is the "single highest grade".

 

That's not what "single highest grade" means.

 

For hulk 181 it is a 9.9.

 

That IS what "single highest grade" means. Because there's a SINGLE copy in that grade.

 

Hulk 181 had a boatload more chances to yield a 9.9 because it has a far, far greater print run than cerebus.

 

A "boatload"?

 

I don't think you really understand what the 9.9 and 10 grades really mean.

 

And what does hulk 181 go for in the second highest grade ? A 9.8 just went for about 12k if I'm not mistaken. Let's please not try to have our cake and eat it too by hyping up how "rare" and "important" cerebus 1 is to justify what it sells for, and then whine about how there's no sales data and point to mysterious, off the books sales that only overstreet knows about to explain your position.

 

You just contradicted yourself in one breath.

 

If it's rare, it's not going to have a lot of sales data. Not "no." Just not much.

 

And you are mischaracterizing the situation for your own argument yet again: OPG doesn't use "mysterious, off the books sales"...there's nothing "mysterious" or "off the books" about it: GPA isn't the sole source of information that the OPG uses.

 

How do you think Overstreet came up with prices for 3 decades before CGC and GPA existed?

 

~ ahem ~

 

Continuing on....

 

And then simultaneously knock hulk 181 for being so plentiful and then disregard its top sales in its respective top grades because they are not literally "the identical" grade as cerebus' top grade (being only a 9.4). If you really think cerebus 1 is worthy of swimming in hulk 181's waters, then let it, and let's see what happens.....

 

I have to say this again: comparing "top grades" is not appropriate when those top grades are not the same

 

"The top grade for Book X is 6.5, and the top grade for Book Y is 9.8, so it's valid to compare the value of a 6.5 against a 9.8, because they're both "top grade."

 

That is self-evidently false.

 

You use the language of the propagandist very well, Jaydog. You use emotionally charged words like "hyping" and "whine" and "mysterious" and "knock"...none of which anyone has done.

 

This has been a sober discussion, and no one has resorted to hyperbole, speculation, and emotionally charged buzzwords to discredit the opposing argument except you and some of those making the same argument.

 

"Well, what if THIS, and what if THAT, and what if the OTHER??"

 

It's not about "What ifs"...it's about what IS.

 

So in an apples to apples comparison we have a cerebus 1 in the single highest grade get bid up to 9k recently. For hulk 181 the single highest grade gets bid up to 150k, four years ago, long after the book crashed and long before its recent and powerful resurgence.

 

It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9.

 

Repeat: It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9.

 

"Long after the book crashed"...?

 

Did you really just say...on this message board...that the value of Hulk #181 "crashed"...?

 

Really?

 

Then for the second highest grade (of which there are also only 3 copies) we have a cerebus 1 maaaaaaaybe go for 3k. But more likely 2500-2800, and all three of those are SS file copies. For hulk 181 the second highest grade (for which there are 79 copies) is 11-12k.

 

This is not a valid comparison. You cannot compare a 9.2 to a 9.8.

 

After that cerebus 1 drops like a rock in "value" while hulk 181 slowly tapers down, maintaining a four digit selling price all the way down to a 7.0, and raw, tattered rags with no MVS selling for close to 400, which is about what a VF raw copy of cerebus 1 last went for on ebay.

 

So which comic really is more "valuable"?

 

In 9.2 and above? Clearly, the Cerebus #1.

 

I thought we established this pages ago.

 

If you look only at the three highest graded 9.4 examples of cerebus 1 that have sold in 10 years versus the 350 copies of a 9.4 hulk 181 (a multiple of over 100x), then cerebus 1 is. But of course that would be downright silly if you were to do that. Wouldn't it be, overstreet?

 

Because if you compare the single highest graded copy of hulk 181 to the single highest graded for cerebus 1.....hulk wins. By a lot.

 

Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison.

 

Again: Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison.

 

If you compare sales of the second highest graded copies to each other .... hulk wins. By a lot.

 

Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison.

 

Again: Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison.

 

If you compare each book grade for grade (other than the single highest for each book)....hulk wins..... in every single grade, and by an ever expanding percentage as you go further down the grading scale.

 

To sum it up....hulk 181 wins.

 

This is not true, as has already been explained ad nauseam.

 

The last remaining crux of RMA (and a couple others) pro-cerebus 1 argument is a literalist's approach: "three highest graded 9.4 copies of cerebus 1 have sold for more than any one of the 350 copies of 9.4 hulk 181's have sold for, so overstreet got it right." They won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution for hulk 181 in grade,

 

Words literally fail to express the depth of astonishment I feel at reading such a statement. You literally made my jaw drop when I read this statement.

 

No one "won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution", because that is precisely WHY Hulk #181 is worth less. There is more SUPPLY.

 

That's the "supply" part of "supply and demand."

 

Jaydog, seriously man. Seriously.

 

even as they trumpet the stratospheric sales price of the ONE copy of the single highest graded 9.4 copy of cerebus 1 that just sold (for over 1000 LESS than it did five years ago), and salivate over what ONE 9.8 copy of a cerebus 1 might go for if it ever came to market. (On a side note, if that ever did happen, I wonder what that would do to the value of your 9.4's.... )

 

Please stop using propaganda words like "trumpet" and "salivate." You can make your point without resorting to propaganda, honest.

 

No, overstreet got it wrong. Very wrong. Because in the real world hulk 181 is the undisputed king of the BA, value-wise, importance to the hobby-wise, historical-wise, and every single other "wise" you can think of. When hulk 181 tanked it literally took the entire Bronze Age with it.

 

In "the real world", Cerebus #1 in 9.2 and above is worth more than Hulk #181. Period.

 

When did Hulk #181 tank? (Nevermind, you don't answer direct questions anyways.)

 

Cerebus 1 meanwhile is a foot note. A novelty. A curiosity. If the book suddenly tanked in value over night it wouldn't even cause a ripple in the market. Does that mean the book is a piece of junk and has no value ? Obviously not. Clearly it has its fans, devotees, and passionate collectors. And that is never a bad thing for the hobby. Just let's not lose sight of the big picture and common sense. The OP originally began this thread questioning the book's place on overstreet's top BA list ahead of hulk 181. For all the reasons cited above, his point is well taken. Thanks for reading.

 

-J.

 

Yes, let's please not lose sight of the big picture and common sense.

 

Cerebus #1 is a more valuable book than Hulk #181 in high grade, for all the reasons already well explained. No "what ifs". No hyperbole. That is the reason why it is in the top BA list ahead of Hulk #181: because it is worth more in high grade.

 

The numbers don't lie.

 

I just do not want to imagine that you actually believe all of this.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

If there were 2000 copies of Spawn 1, can you imagine the price it would go for?

 

The B&W Spawn #1 is reputed to be limited to 2,000 copies, and look what it sells for...

 

 

RMA, what, no lengthy semantical dissection of my weighted analysis of Hulk 181 versus cerebus 1 in all grades that you were asking for? I'm disappointed.....

 

-J.

 

 

-J.

 

Posts like these are baiting, borderline trolling, and lead me to believe you are posting for fun, and you don't really believe what you are posting.

 

Regardless, I haven't seen any weighted analysis yet. Maybe I haven't gotten to it.

 

:shrug:

[RockMyAmadeus]

So, if you had only one opportunity in your life time to add only one of these books to your collection in CGC 9.2 which would it be?

 

Hulk 181

 

or

 

Cerebus 1

 

Remember, only one chance in a lifetime to pick one of these 2 books (and both happen to be CGC 9.2s with white pages).

 

This isn't what the argument is about. I understand that you WANT it to be about what is more popular, but that's not Overstreet's premise.

 

Sorry.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Without going into it, you're just flat wrong. Every comic dealer would - if offered the same two books - purchase the Cerebus 1 in 9.4 every single time. In lower grades - like everyone is saying - the Hulk wins.

 

This.

 

I just filled in the details.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

It's almost embarassing at this point.

[RockMyAmadeus]

If there were 2000 copies of Spawn 1, can you imagine the price it would go for?

 

The B&W Spawn #1 is reputed to be limited to 2,000 copies, and look what it sells for...

 

 

Apples and oranges. How many more were kept? And in nice condition?

 

You mean, comparing the value of Spawn #1 with the B&W Spawn #1 is an apples and oranges comparison...?

 

[HighStakesComics]

Without going into it, you're just flat wrong. Every comic dealer would - if offered the same two books - purchase the Cerebus 1 in 9.4 every single time. In lower grades - like everyone is saying - the Hulk wins.

 

This.

 

I just filled in the details.

 

 

I've already stated my position, RMA. Jaydog himself conceded that the Cerebus #1 is the book to own in 9.4. Here's the one issue that troubles me:

 

If OPG doesn't rely solely on GPA, and they use arms length transactions along with other data points when determining a books value, why then are they assigning the Cerebus #1 a 9.2 value of only $2100? If they are utilizing their team of advisors to appraise the value of a copy just below NM, and these dealers have conducted transactions that would lead them to believe the monetary value of a 9.2 copy is only $2100, how then could we conclude beyond any shadow of a doubt that its the more valuable book when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k in transparent, online transactions?

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

It's almost embarassing at this point.

 

It's difficult to be restrained at times.

 

It's as simple as this:

 

"2 + 2 = 4"

 

"Nuh uh. 2 + 2 = 5"

 

"No, by definition, 2 + 2 = 4"

 

"Nuh uh. 2 + 2 = 5, because I say so."

 

What can you do with that? Can you persuade someone who refuses to understand to see reason?

 

It can be intensely frustrating, knowing there are people out there who live only in emotion, illogic, and without reason, and more, who actively reject reason when confronted with it.

 

I understand dictators. I'm currently reading "Adolf Hitler: A Study In Tyranny", by Alan Bullock, considered the quintessential biography of the man, and it's amazing what he has to say about democracy, twisted though his understanding was.

 

Democracy only works when man is able to reason. If man is without reason, democracy is turned into a vicious joke, and the people are ruled by the tyranny of the majority.

[Jaydogrules]

 

Actually Alexander as of now cerebus is only more "valuable" than hulk 181 in exactly ONE grade.....A 9.4.

 

This isn't true, you know this isn't true, it's been explained repeatedly why this isn't true, but you keep on repeating things that aren't true.

 

Jaydog, why do you keep doing this? It has been explained why this isn't true, yet you keep repeating it as if it is.

 

Why?

 

Are you aware you're doing it? Are you a student of propaganda, which says to just lie, lie, lie, and the longer and more boldly and often you lie, the more likely it is to be believed?

 

What you have said IS NOT TRUE. The 9.2 price you're comparing is from 2005, and you're comparing it to a price from 2014. You CANNOT make that comparison without including that information. It is DISHONEST to continue to do so.

 

If a 9.6 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4? If a 9.8 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4?

 

If you are interested in being taken seriously around here, stop repeating things that are patently untrue.

 

So essentially the pro-cerebus argument at this point is that those 3 highest graded cerebus 1's that have sold three times in ten years for up to 10k, warrant the book being ranked higher on overstreet's list.

 

There are five 9.4 Cerebus #1s, not three. The book has sold four times, as recorded at GPA, in ten years, not three. Details matter.

 

And as stated multiple times, in multiple ways, no, that is NOT the argument that is being made. GPA data is just one source that the OPG uses to determine values.

 

The fact that hulk 181 blows it out of the water in literally every single other grade, even though there are 50 times more copies of it out there apparently counts for nothing.

 

Hulk #181 does NOT "blow it out of the water" in any grade above 9.0.

 

The pro-cerebus folks

 

 

There aren't "pro-cerebus" folks. There are "pro-fact", "pro-reason", "pro-logic" folks.

 

don't care to acknowledge the great likelihood that those three 9.4 cerebus 1's, when available, get bid up by fans who are chasing "single highest graded" books as trophy pieces for their collection.

 

So? Is demand more or less valid based on why it exists? "Oh, THAT price doesn't count, because he's buying it as a trophy piece!"...?

 

And "single highest graded" means there is ONE copy at the highest grade. "Single" refers to the quantity of the slabs, not the quality of the height.

 

Kind of like that 9.6 GL 76. Or even the 9.9 ASM 194 that went for 5k, I believe on heritage recently. A 9.8 of the same ASM 194 drops all the way down to about $850. Methinks a similar phenomenon would explain why cerebus 1 is such a non factor in every single grade that isn't the single highest grade....

 

No. It doesn't work that way.

 

So let's talk about those "single highest graded" book collectors. What were they willing to pay for that in a hulk 181. $150k is what they were willing to pay. Sorry folks, it is an apt comparison.

 

Sorry, Jaydog, but it's not. But you keep repeating it, and I'll keep disputing it.

 

For whatever reason, cerebus 1 is not available past a 9.4. For cerebus a 9.4 is the "single highest grade".

 

That's not what "single highest grade" means.

 

For hulk 181 it is a 9.9.

 

That IS what "single highest grade" means. Because there's a SINGLE copy in that grade.

 

Hulk 181 had a boatload more chances to yield a 9.9 because it has a far, far greater print run than cerebus.

 

A "boatload"?

 

I don't think you really understand what the 9.9 and 10 grades really mean.

 

And what does hulk 181 go for in the second highest grade ? A 9.8 just went for about 12k if I'm not mistaken. Let's please not try to have our cake and eat it too by hyping up how "rare" and "important" cerebus 1 is to justify what it sells for, and then whine about how there's no sales data and point to mysterious, off the books sales that only overstreet knows about to explain your position.

 

You just contradicted yourself in one breath.

 

If it's rare, it's not going to have a lot of sales data. Not "no." Just not much.

 

And you are mischaracterizing the situation for your own argument yet again: OPG doesn't use "mysterious, off the books sales"...there's nothing "mysterious" or "off the books" about it: GPA isn't the sole source of information that the OPG uses.

 

How do you think Overstreet came up with prices for 3 decades before CGC and GPA existed?

 

~ ahem ~

 

Continuing on....

 

And then simultaneously knock hulk 181 for being so plentiful and then disregard its top sales in its respective top grades because they are not literally "the identical" grade as cerebus' top grade (being only a 9.4). If you really think cerebus 1 is worthy of swimming in hulk 181's waters, then let it, and let's see what happens.....

 

I have to say this again: comparing "top grades" is not appropriate when those top grades are not the same

 

"The top grade for Book X is 6.5, and the top grade for Book Y is 9.8, so it's valid to compare the value of a 6.5 against a 9.8, because they're both "top grade."

 

That is self-evidently false.

 

You use the language of the propagandist very well, Jaydog. You use emotionally charged words like "hyping" and "whine" and "mysterious" and "knock"...none of which anyone has done.

 

This has been a sober discussion, and no one has resorted to hyperbole, speculation, and emotionally charged buzzwords to discredit the opposing argument except you and some of those making the same argument.

 

"Well, what if THIS, and what if THAT, and what if the OTHER??"

 

It's not about "What ifs"...it's about what IS.

 

So in an apples to apples comparison we have a cerebus 1 in the single highest grade get bid up to 9k recently. For hulk 181 the single highest grade gets bid up to 150k, four years ago, long after the book crashed and long before its recent and powerful resurgence.

 

It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9.

 

Repeat: It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9.

 

"Long after the book crashed"...?

 

Did you really just say...on this message board...that the value of Hulk #181 "crashed"...?

 

Really?

 

Then for the second highest grade (of which there are also only 3 copies) we have a cerebus 1 maaaaaaaybe go for 3k. But more likely 2500-2800, and all three of those are SS file copies. For hulk 181 the second highest grade (for which there are 79 copies) is 11-12k.

 

This is not a valid comparison. You cannot compare a 9.2 to a 9.8.

 

After that cerebus 1 drops like a rock in "value" while hulk 181 slowly tapers down, maintaining a four digit selling price all the way down to a 7.0, and raw, tattered rags with no MVS selling for close to 400, which is about what a VF raw copy of cerebus 1 last went for on ebay.

 

So which comic really is more "valuable"?

 

In 9.2 and above? Clearly, the Cerebus #1.

 

I thought we established this pages ago.

 

If you look only at the three highest graded 9.4 examples of cerebus 1 that have sold in 10 years versus the 350 copies of a 9.4 hulk 181 (a multiple of over 100x), then cerebus 1 is. But of course that would be downright silly if you were to do that. Wouldn't it be, overstreet?

 

Because if you compare the single highest graded copy of hulk 181 to the single highest graded for cerebus 1.....hulk wins. By a lot.

 

Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison.

 

Again: Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison.

 

If you compare sales of the second highest graded copies to each other .... hulk wins. By a lot.

 

Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison.

 

Again: Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison.

 

If you compare each book grade for grade (other than the single highest for each book)....hulk wins..... in every single grade, and by an ever expanding percentage as you go further down the grading scale.

 

To sum it up....hulk 181 wins.

 

This is not true, as has already been explained ad nauseam.

 

The last remaining crux of RMA (and a couple others) pro-cerebus 1 argument is a literalist's approach: "three highest graded 9.4 copies of cerebus 1 have sold for more than any one of the 350 copies of 9.4 hulk 181's have sold for, so overstreet got it right." They won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution for hulk 181 in grade,

 

Words literally fail to express the depth of astonishment I feel at reading such a statement. You literally made my jaw drop when I read this statement.

 

No one "won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution", because that is precisely WHY Hulk #181 is worth less. There is more SUPPLY.

 

That's the "supply" part of "supply and demand."

 

Jaydog, seriously man. Seriously.

 

even as they trumpet the stratospheric sales price of the ONE copy of the single highest graded 9.4 copy of cerebus 1 that just sold (for over 1000 LESS than it did five years ago), and salivate over what ONE 9.8 copy of a cerebus 1 might go for if it ever came to market. (On a side note, if that ever did happen, I wonder what that would do to the value of your 9.4's.... )

 

Please stop using propaganda words like "trumpet" and "salivate." You can make your point without resorting to propaganda, honest.

 

No, overstreet got it wrong. Very wrong. Because in the real world hulk 181 is the undisputed king of the BA, value-wise, importance to the hobby-wise, historical-wise, and every single other "wise" you can think of. When hulk 181 tanked it literally took the entire Bronze Age with it.

 

In "the real world", Cerebus #1 in 9.2 and above is worth more than Hulk #181. Period.

 

When did Hulk #181 tank? (Nevermind, you don't answer direct questions anyways.)

 

Cerebus 1 meanwhile is a foot note. A novelty. A curiosity. If the book suddenly tanked in value over night it wouldn't even cause a ripple in the market. Does that mean the book is a piece of junk and has no value ? Obviously not. Clearly it has its fans, devotees, and passionate collectors. And that is never a bad thing for the hobby. Just let's not lose sight of the big picture and common sense. The OP originally began this thread questioning the book's place on overstreet's top BA list ahead of hulk 181. For all the reasons cited above, his point is well taken. Thanks for reading.

 

-J.

 

Yes, let's please not lose sight of the big picture and common sense.

 

Cerebus #1 is a more valuable book than Hulk #181 in high grade, for all the reasons already well explained. No "what ifs". No hyperbole. That is the reason why it is in the top BA list ahead of Hulk #181: because it is worth more in high grade.

 

The numbers don't lie.

 

I just do not want to imagine that you actually believe all of this.

 

 

Thank you RMA, you did not fail to disappoint. But before I leave you to this thread and your beloved copy of Cerebus 1, I will say this...

 

1) Prior to ebay, GPA, the internet, and cell phones, Overstreet relied on reports from dealers and LCS for its data. Guess what dude, it's 2014 now. He MAY still get SOME info that way still, but the vast majority of data is readily available to the public, and easily verifiable by anyone in this day and age.

 

2) The most recent sale of a Hulk 181 beats anything a Cerebus 1 has ever sold for in a 9.2. Don't have any public sales in a 9.2 for a Cerebus 1 in nearly 10 years? That's not Hulk 181's problem. Anything you "think" a 9.2 would go for now is just speculation. But estimates have been 2500-2800, based on the recent, verifiable sale of an 8.5 (fourth highest graded) which could barely eek out a meager $850.

 

3) When did Hulk 181 crash? Remember when a 9.8 was going for 20 grand? Oh, okay.

 

4) People don't pay a premium to have the highest graded example of a book, regardless of what that "highest grade" might be? Really RMA? For someone who purports to carry the torch for "facts" and "truth", you are so frequently WRONG it boggles the mind. Instead of seizing on minutiae to distract from the point, let's try staying on it: New Mutants 98, 10.0 anyone? GL 76, 9.6? Hulk 181, 9.9? ASM 194, 9.9? Avengers 4, 9.6? All of these "single highest grade" copies sold for EXTREME multiples of their next highest graded counterparts. Hey my man, just out of curiosity, what do you think that "highest graded" Action 1, 9.0 on ebay will go for? You think the buyer will end up paying a premium for that? Do you think that it will matter to him that there's another 9.0 on the census? It's still the "Single highest grade" available for the book. I didn't say the "single copy with the highest grade". See the difference between the two terms now?

 

So why do you think this is not a phenomenon that is in fact, very real and palpable, and why do you think it doesn't apply to the ONE grade (the highest), that Cerebus 1 currently out-sells Hulk 181 for (and pardon me, FIVE copies in ten years, because that makes such a big difference to the point than three copies in ten years)?

 

Why do you think it doesn't apply? Because it is inconvenient to what you evidently need to believe about this book. You're right, no one needs to make a case for Hulk 181, the book stands on its own as one of the pillars of the entire hobby. Deal with it. It's the Cerebus 1 that needs the apologists, qualifiers, bargaining, excuse-making and a dozen caveats for it to have any kind of relevance beyond the collections of die hard devotees. Which is, as I said before, also good for the hobby, but not in the same way that Hulk 181 is good for the hobby, and not on anywhere near the same level.

 

You can go on and on about how the 5 copies of Cerebus 9.4 are "worth" more than a hulk 181 in a 9.4, because at this point, that's all you have left to hang your hat on I get it.

 

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

[porcupine48]

It's almost embarassing at this point.

 

It's difficult to be restrained at times.

 

It's as simple as this:

 

"2 + 2 = 4"

 

"Nuh uh. 2 + 2 = 5"

 

"No, by definition, 2 + 2 = 4"

 

"Nuh uh. 2 + 2 = 5, because I say so."

 

What can you do with that? Can you persuade someone who refuses to understand to see reason?

You have to work harder on your doublethink .

Doublethink harder and 2 + 2 = 5.

Big Brother is Love,because Love is Hate.

[ComicConnoisseur]

As someone that appreciates both books for being awesome in their own right, i find it strange that the print run is being used to somehow "beat down" Cerebus and its place in comics history.

 

Marvel is paramount for many if not most posters. I get that. I love Marvel, too. Cerebus was a simple B&W self-published Conan parody book that became a launching pad for the entire alternative comics movement. By its very nature it never would or could have a high print run. It wouldn't have been what it was if it had been distributed everywhere. If Cerebus had been published by Marvel, it probably would have the same value and desirability as Skull the Slayer #1.

 

But it wasn't. Instead it plays a very important part in the history of comics that don't involve superheroes. Will it always be niche and/or tangential to the largest parts of this hobby. Most likely yes. Is its high value (or price if you prefer) bolstered by its low print run? Absolutely. But the fact that not everyone wants one seems a silly reason to denigrate it. It has maintained a high relative value (price) because the number of people that do want it far outweigh the available copies.

 

Can't they both be awesome for what they are?

I like this post! The best argument to show that they both are important (thumbs u