Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87 3 3

[Prince Namor]

Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered either one or the other - for $500.

 

Why?

 

They know they'll make a much higher profit on it.

 

It's more valuable.

 

You can't dispute this.

[RockMyAmadeus]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

 

Jay... that is bad form....

 

using facts.....

 

 

Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical...

 

That's a fact, alright.

 

That is not what you are doing with Cerebus? Using one or a few sales to claim the value?

 

I know you're being snide, but I'll answer you sincerely:

 

When one or a few sales is all the information you have, it is reasonable to draw conclusions, to extrapolate based on that information.

 

Understand: there is a significant difference between ONE sale and A FEW sales. Substantially so.

 

With Hulk #181, is it NOT REASONABLE to draw the most extreme example ever to "make a point", when there are literally hundreds of other "data points" that paint a different picture.

 

We must use our reason, gentlemen. We cannot just pick whatever suits us out of the air and go with it.

[Jaydogrules]

1) Prior to ebay, GPA, the internet, and cell phones, Overstreet relied on reports from dealers and LCS for its data. Guess what dude, it's 2014 now. He MAY still get SOME info that way still, but the vast majority of data is readily available to the public, and easily verifiable by anyone in this day and age.

 

2) The most recent sale of a Hulk 181 beats anything a Cerebus 1 has ever sold for in a 9.2. Don't have any public sales in a 9.2 for a Cerebus 1 in nearly 10 years? That's not Hulk 181's problem. Anything you "think" a 9.2 would go for now is just speculation. But estimates have been 2500-2800, based on the recent, verifiable sale of an 8.5 (fourth highest graded) which could barely eek out a meager $850.

 

 

1) Really? Would you care to show me sales data from every small local comic show, every major convention, every dealer website, etc. for the last year? Certainly more sales data is publicly available now than in 1980, but give me a break.

 

2) The most recent sale of Hulk 181 9.2 is also more than any Hulk 181 has sold for (at least recently, I don't know if any sold for more ten years ago or whatever). A single sale of a common book that sells regularly is nearly meaningless.

 

..As are one or two sales every 10 years of a book with a miniscule print run. You can't have it both ways Lazy.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It's almost embarassing at this point.

 

It's difficult to be restrained at times.

 

It's as simple as this:

 

"2 + 2 = 4"

 

"Nuh uh. 2 + 2 = 5"

 

"No, by definition, 2 + 2 = 4"

 

"Nuh uh. 2 + 2 = 5, because I say so."

 

What can you do with that? Can you persuade someone who refuses to understand to see reason?

 

It can be intensely frustrating, knowing there are people out there who live only in emotion, illogic, and without reason, and more, who actively reject reason when confronted with it.

 

I understand dictators. I'm currently reading "Adolf Hitler: A Study In Tyranny", by Alan Bullock, considered the quintessential biography of the man, and it's amazing what he has to say about democracy, twisted though his understanding was.

 

Democracy only works when man is able to reason. If man is without reason, democracy is turned into a vicious joke, and the people are ruled by the tyranny of the majority.

 

Did I just Godwin's Law this thread...?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

1) Prior to ebay, GPA, the internet, and cell phones, Overstreet relied on reports from dealers and LCS for its data. Guess what dude, it's 2014 now. He MAY still get SOME info that way still, but the vast majority of data is readily available to the public, and easily verifiable by anyone in this day and age.

 

2) The most recent sale of a Hulk 181 beats anything a Cerebus 1 has ever sold for in a 9.2. Don't have any public sales in a 9.2 for a Cerebus 1 in nearly 10 years? That's not Hulk 181's problem. Anything you "think" a 9.2 would go for now is just speculation. But estimates have been 2500-2800, based on the recent, verifiable sale of an 8.5 (fourth highest graded) which could barely eek out a meager $850.

 

 

1) Really? Would you care to show me sales data from every small local comic show, every major convention, every dealer website, etc. for the last year? Certainly more sales data is publicly available now than in 1980, but give me a break.

 

2) The most recent sale of Hulk 181 9.2 is also more than any Hulk 181 has sold for (at least recently, I don't know if any sold for more ten years ago or whatever). A single sale of a common book that sells regularly is nearly meaningless.

 

..As are one or two sales of a book with a miniscule print run every 10 years. You can't have it both ways Lazy.

 

-J.

 

Yes, you can "have it both ways" (which is not really the case here )

 

You have to go with the data you have.

 

The data you have on the Hulk #181 states that you are being quite unreasonable using the most extreme price the book has ever sold for in that grade as a valid example.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Actually Alexander as of now cerebus is only more "valuable" than hulk 181 in exactly ONE grade.....A 9.4.

 

This isn't true, you know this isn't true, it's been explained repeatedly why this isn't true, but you keep on repeating things that aren't true.

 

Jaydog, why do you keep doing this? It has been explained why this isn't true, yet you keep repeating it as if it is.

 

Why?

 

Are you aware you're doing it? Are you a student of propaganda, which says to just lie, lie, lie, and the longer and more boldly and often you lie, the more likely it is to be believed?

 

What you have said IS NOT TRUE. The 9.2 price you're comparing is from 2005, and you're comparing it to a price from 2014. You CANNOT make that comparison without including that information. It is DISHONEST to continue to do so.

 

If a 9.6 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4? If a 9.8 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4?

 

If you are interested in being taken seriously around here, stop repeating things that are patently untrue.

 

So essentially the pro-cerebus argument at this point is that those 3 highest graded cerebus 1's that have sold three times in ten years for up to 10k, warrant the book being ranked higher on overstreet's list.

 

There are five 9.4 Cerebus #1s, not three. The book has sold four times, as recorded at GPA, in ten years, not three. Details matter.

 

And as stated multiple times, in multiple ways, no, that is NOT the argument that is being made. GPA data is just one source that the OPG uses to determine values.

 

The fact that hulk 181 blows it out of the water in literally every single other grade, even though there are 50 times more copies of it out there apparently counts for nothing.

 

Hulk #181 does NOT "blow it out of the water" in any grade above 9.0.

 

The pro-cerebus folks

 

 

There aren't "pro-cerebus" folks. There are "pro-fact", "pro-reason", "pro-logic" folks.

 

don't care to acknowledge the great likelihood that those three 9.4 cerebus 1's, when available, get bid up by fans who are chasing "single highest graded" books as trophy pieces for their collection.

 

So? Is demand more or less valid based on why it exists? "Oh, THAT price doesn't count, because he's buying it as a trophy piece!"...?

 

And "single highest graded" means there is ONE copy at the highest grade. "Single" refers to the quantity of the slabs, not the quality of the height.

 

Kind of like that 9.6 GL 76. Or even the 9.9 ASM 194 that went for 5k, I believe on heritage recently. A 9.8 of the same ASM 194 drops all the way down to about $850. Methinks a similar phenomenon would explain why cerebus 1 is such a non factor in every single grade that isn't the single highest grade....

 

No. It doesn't work that way.

 

So let's talk about those "single highest graded" book collectors. What were they willing to pay for that in a hulk 181. $150k is what they were willing to pay. Sorry folks, it is an apt comparison.

 

Sorry, Jaydog, but it's not. But you keep repeating it, and I'll keep disputing it.

 

For whatever reason, cerebus 1 is not available past a 9.4. For cerebus a 9.4 is the "single highest grade".

 

That's not what "single highest grade" means.

 

For hulk 181 it is a 9.9.

 

That IS what "single highest grade" means. Because there's a SINGLE copy in that grade.

 

Hulk 181 had a boatload more chances to yield a 9.9 because it has a far, far greater print run than cerebus.

 

A "boatload"?

 

I don't think you really understand what the 9.9 and 10 grades really mean.

 

And what does hulk 181 go for in the second highest grade ? A 9.8 just went for about 12k if I'm not mistaken. Let's please not try to have our cake and eat it too by hyping up how "rare" and "important" cerebus 1 is to justify what it sells for, and then whine about how there's no sales data and point to mysterious, off the books sales that only overstreet knows about to explain your position.

 

You just contradicted yourself in one breath.

 

If it's rare, it's not going to have a lot of sales data. Not "no." Just not much.

 

And you are mischaracterizing the situation for your own argument yet again: OPG doesn't use "mysterious, off the books sales"...there's nothing "mysterious" or "off the books" about it: GPA isn't the sole source of information that the OPG uses.

 

How do you think Overstreet came up with prices for 3 decades before CGC and GPA existed?

 

~ ahem ~

 

Continuing on....

 

And then simultaneously knock hulk 181 for being so plentiful and then disregard its top sales in its respective top grades because they are not literally "the identical" grade as cerebus' top grade (being only a 9.4). If you really think cerebus 1 is worthy of swimming in hulk 181's waters, then let it, and let's see what happens.....

 

I have to say this again: comparing "top grades" is not appropriate when those top grades are not the same

 

"The top grade for Book X is 6.5, and the top grade for Book Y is 9.8, so it's valid to compare the value of a 6.5 against a 9.8, because they're both "top grade."

 

That is self-evidently false.

 

You use the language of the propagandist very well, Jaydog. You use emotionally charged words like "hyping" and "whine" and "mysterious" and "knock"...none of which anyone has done.

 

This has been a sober discussion, and no one has resorted to hyperbole, speculation, and emotionally charged buzzwords to discredit the opposing argument except you and some of those making the same argument.

 

"Well, what if THIS, and what if THAT, and what if the OTHER??"

 

It's not about "What ifs"...it's about what IS.

 

So in an apples to apples comparison we have a cerebus 1 in the single highest grade get bid up to 9k recently. For hulk 181 the single highest grade gets bid up to 150k, four years ago, long after the book crashed and long before its recent and powerful resurgence.

 

It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9.

 

Repeat: It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9.

 

"Long after the book crashed"...?

 

Did you really just say...on this message board...that the value of Hulk #181 "crashed"...?

 

Really?

 

Then for the second highest grade (of which there are also only 3 copies) we have a cerebus 1 maaaaaaaybe go for 3k. But more likely 2500-2800, and all three of those are SS file copies. For hulk 181 the second highest grade (for which there are 79 copies) is 11-12k.

 

This is not a valid comparison. You cannot compare a 9.2 to a 9.8.

 

After that cerebus 1 drops like a rock in "value" while hulk 181 slowly tapers down, maintaining a four digit selling price all the way down to a 7.0, and raw, tattered rags with no MVS selling for close to 400, which is about what a VF raw copy of cerebus 1 last went for on ebay.

 

So which comic really is more "valuable"?

 

In 9.2 and above? Clearly, the Cerebus #1.

 

I thought we established this pages ago.

 

If you look only at the three highest graded 9.4 examples of cerebus 1 that have sold in 10 years versus the 350 copies of a 9.4 hulk 181 (a multiple of over 100x), then cerebus 1 is. But of course that would be downright silly if you were to do that. Wouldn't it be, overstreet?

 

Because if you compare the single highest graded copy of hulk 181 to the single highest graded for cerebus 1.....hulk wins. By a lot.

 

Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison.

 

Again: Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison.

 

If you compare sales of the second highest graded copies to each other .... hulk wins. By a lot.

 

Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison.

 

Again: Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison.

 

If you compare each book grade for grade (other than the single highest for each book)....hulk wins..... in every single grade, and by an ever expanding percentage as you go further down the grading scale.

 

To sum it up....hulk 181 wins.

 

This is not true, as has already been explained ad nauseam.

 

The last remaining crux of RMA (and a couple others) pro-cerebus 1 argument is a literalist's approach: "three highest graded 9.4 copies of cerebus 1 have sold for more than any one of the 350 copies of 9.4 hulk 181's have sold for, so overstreet got it right." They won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution for hulk 181 in grade,

 

Words literally fail to express the depth of astonishment I feel at reading such a statement. You literally made my jaw drop when I read this statement.

 

No one "won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution", because that is precisely WHY Hulk #181 is worth less. There is more SUPPLY.

 

That's the "supply" part of "supply and demand."

 

Jaydog, seriously man. Seriously.

 

even as they trumpet the stratospheric sales price of the ONE copy of the single highest graded 9.4 copy of cerebus 1 that just sold (for over 1000 LESS than it did five years ago), and salivate over what ONE 9.8 copy of a cerebus 1 might go for if it ever came to market. (On a side note, if that ever did happen, I wonder what that would do to the value of your 9.4's.... )

 

Please stop using propaganda words like "trumpet" and "salivate." You can make your point without resorting to propaganda, honest.

 

No, overstreet got it wrong. Very wrong. Because in the real world hulk 181 is the undisputed king of the BA, value-wise, importance to the hobby-wise, historical-wise, and every single other "wise" you can think of. When hulk 181 tanked it literally took the entire Bronze Age with it.

 

In "the real world", Cerebus #1 in 9.2 and above is worth more than Hulk #181. Period.

 

When did Hulk #181 tank? (Nevermind, you don't answer direct questions anyways.)

 

Cerebus 1 meanwhile is a foot note. A novelty. A curiosity. If the book suddenly tanked in value over night it wouldn't even cause a ripple in the market. Does that mean the book is a piece of junk and has no value ? Obviously not. Clearly it has its fans, devotees, and passionate collectors. And that is never a bad thing for the hobby. Just let's not lose sight of the big picture and common sense. The OP originally began this thread questioning the book's place on overstreet's top BA list ahead of hulk 181. For all the reasons cited above, his point is well taken. Thanks for reading.

 

-J.

 

Yes, let's please not lose sight of the big picture and common sense.

 

Cerebus #1 is a more valuable book than Hulk #181 in high grade, for all the reasons already well explained. No "what ifs". No hyperbole. That is the reason why it is in the top BA list ahead of Hulk #181: because it is worth more in high grade.

 

The numbers don't lie.

 

I just do not want to imagine that you actually believe all of this.

 

 

Thank you RMA, you did not fail to disappoint. But before I leave you to this thread and your beloved copy of Cerebus 1, I will say this...

 

1) Prior to ebay, GPA, the internet, and cell phones, Overstreet relied on reports from dealers and LCS for its data. Guess what dude, it's 2014 now. He MAY still get SOME info that way still, but the vast majority of data is readily available to the public, and easily verifiable by anyone in this day and age.

 

2) The most recent sale of a Hulk 181 beats anything a Cerebus 1 has ever sold for in a 9.2. Don't have any public sales in a 9.2 for a Cerebus 1 in nearly 10 years? That's not Hulk 181's problem. Anything you "think" a 9.2 would go for now is just speculation. But estimates have been 2500-2800, based on the recent, verifiable sale of an 8.5 (fourth highest graded) which could barely eek out a meager $850.

 

3) When did Hulk 181 crash? Remember when a 9.8 was going for 20 grand? Oh, okay.

 

4) People don't pay a premium to have the highest graded example of a book, regardless of what that "highest grade" might be? Really RMA? For someone who purports to carry the torch for "facts" and "truth", you are so frequently WRONG it boggles the mind. Instead of seizing on minutiae to distract from the point, let's try staying on it: New Mutants 98, 10.0 anyone? GL 76, 9.6? Hulk 181, 9.9? ASM 194, 9.9? Avengers 4, 9.6? All of these "single highest grade" copies sold for EXTREME multiples of their next highest graded counterparts. Hey my man, just out of curiosity, what do you think that "highest graded" Action 1, 9.0 on ebay will go for? You think the buyer will end up paying a premium for that? Do you think that it will matter to him that there's another 9.0 on the census? It's still the "Single highest grade" available for the book. I didn't say the "single copy with the highest grade". See the difference between the two terms now?

 

So why do you think this is not a phenomenon that is in fact, very real and palpable, and why do you think it doesn't apply to the ONE grade (the highest), that Cerebus 1 currently out-sells Hulk 181 for (and pardon me, FIVE copies in ten years, because that makes such a big difference to the point than three copies in ten years)?

 

Why do you think it doesn't apply? Because it is inconvenient to what you evidently need to believe about this book. You're right, no one needs to make a case for Hulk 181, the book stands on its own as one of the pillars of the entire hobby. Deal with it. It's the Cerebus 1 that needs the apologists, qualifiers, bargaining, excuse-making and a dozen caveats for it to have any kind of relevance beyond the collections of die hard devotees. Which is, as I said before, also good for the hobby, but not in the same way that Hulk 181 is good for the hobby, and not on anywhere near the same level.

 

You can go on and on about how the 5 copies of Cerebus 9.4 are "worth" more than a hulk 181 in a 9.4, because at this point, that's all you have left to hang your hat on I get it.

 

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

I've already addressed all of this, and you remain incorrect. There's really nothing more that can be said about ground already covered.

 

I'm still waiting for your weighted analysis of Hulk #181 in all grades.

 

A diatribe against Cerebus #1 isn't a weighted analysis. I would like figures, in all grades, which is what an analysis is. Leave Cerebus #1 out of the picture, just focus on Hulk #181.

 

I am still interested in this information, if you are willing and able to give it.

 

[conditionfreak]

 

Actually Alexander as of now cerebus is only more "valuable" than hulk 181 in exactly ONE grade.....A 9.4.

 

This isn't true, you know this isn't true, it's been explained repeatedly why this isn't true, but you keep on repeating things that aren't true.

 

Jaydog, why do you keep doing this? It has been explained why this isn't true, yet you keep repeating it as if it is.

 

Why?

 

Are you aware you're doing it? Are you a student of propaganda, which says to just lie, lie, lie, and the longer and more boldly and often you lie, the more likely it is to be believed?

 

What you have said IS NOT TRUE. The 9.2 price you're comparing is from 2005, and you're comparing it to a price from 2014. You CANNOT make that comparison without including that information. It is DISHONEST to continue to do so.

 

If a 9.6 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4? If a 9.8 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4?

 

If you are interested in being taken seriously around here, stop repeating things that are patently untrue.

 

So essentially the pro-cerebus argument at this point is that those 3 highest graded cerebus 1's that have sold three times in ten years for up to 10k, warrant the book being ranked higher on overstreet's list.

 

There are five 9.4 Cerebus #1s, not three. The book has sold four times, as recorded at GPA, in ten years, not three. Details matter.

 

And as stated multiple times, in multiple ways, no, that is NOT the argument that is being made. GPA data is just one source that the OPG uses to determine values.

 

The fact that hulk 181 blows it out of the water in literally every single other grade, even though there are 50 times more copies of it out there apparently counts for nothing.

 

Hulk #181 does NOT "blow it out of the water" in any grade above 9.0.

 

The pro-cerebus folks

 

 

There aren't "pro-cerebus" folks. There are "pro-fact", "pro-reason", "pro-logic" folks.

 

don't care to acknowledge the great likelihood that those three 9.4 cerebus 1's, when available, get bid up by fans who are chasing "single highest graded" books as trophy pieces for their collection.

 

So? Is demand more or less valid based on why it exists? "Oh, THAT price doesn't count, because he's buying it as a trophy piece!"...?

 

And "single highest graded" means there is ONE copy at the highest grade. "Single" refers to the quantity of the slabs, not the quality of the height.

 

Kind of like that 9.6 GL 76. Or even the 9.9 ASM 194 that went for 5k, I believe on heritage recently. A 9.8 of the same ASM 194 drops all the way down to about $850. Methinks a similar phenomenon would explain why cerebus 1 is such a non factor in every single grade that isn't the single highest grade....

 

No. It doesn't work that way.

 

So let's talk about those "single highest graded" book collectors. What were they willing to pay for that in a hulk 181. $150k is what they were willing to pay. Sorry folks, it is an apt comparison.

 

Sorry, Jaydog, but it's not. But you keep repeating it, and I'll keep disputing it.

 

For whatever reason, cerebus 1 is not available past a 9.4. For cerebus a 9.4 is the "single highest grade".

 

That's not what "single highest grade" means.

 

For hulk 181 it is a 9.9.

 

That IS what "single highest grade" means. Because there's a SINGLE copy in that grade.

 

Hulk 181 had a boatload more chances to yield a 9.9 because it has a far, far greater print run than cerebus.

 

A "boatload"?

 

I don't think you really understand what the 9.9 and 10 grades really mean.

 

And what does hulk 181 go for in the second highest grade ? A 9.8 just went for about 12k if I'm not mistaken. Let's please not try to have our cake and eat it too by hyping up how "rare" and "important" cerebus 1 is to justify what it sells for, and then whine about how there's no sales data and point to mysterious, off the books sales that only overstreet knows about to explain your position.

 

You just contradicted yourself in one breath.

 

If it's rare, it's not going to have a lot of sales data. Not "no." Just not much.

 

And you are mischaracterizing the situation for your own argument yet again: OPG doesn't use "mysterious, off the books sales"...there's nothing "mysterious" or "off the books" about it: GPA isn't the sole source of information that the OPG uses.

 

How do you think Overstreet came up with prices for 3 decades before CGC and GPA existed?

 

~ ahem ~

 

Continuing on....

 

And then simultaneously knock hulk 181 for being so plentiful and then disregard its top sales in its respective top grades because they are not literally "the identical" grade as cerebus' top grade (being only a 9.4). If you really think cerebus 1 is worthy of swimming in hulk 181's waters, then let it, and let's see what happens.....

 

I have to say this again: comparing "top grades" is not appropriate when those top grades are not the same

 

"The top grade for Book X is 6.5, and the top grade for Book Y is 9.8, so it's valid to compare the value of a 6.5 against a 9.8, because they're both "top grade."

 

That is self-evidently false.

 

You use the language of the propagandist very well, Jaydog. You use emotionally charged words like "hyping" and "whine" and "mysterious" and "knock"...none of which anyone has done.

 

This has been a sober discussion, and no one has resorted to hyperbole, speculation, and emotionally charged buzzwords to discredit the opposing argument except you and some of those making the same argument.

 

"Well, what if THIS, and what if THAT, and what if the OTHER??"

 

It's not about "What ifs"...it's about what IS.

 

So in an apples to apples comparison we have a cerebus 1 in the single highest grade get bid up to 9k recently. For hulk 181 the single highest grade gets bid up to 150k, four years ago, long after the book crashed and long before its recent and powerful resurgence.

 

It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9.

 

Repeat: It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9.

 

"Long after the book crashed"...?

 

Did you really just say...on this message board...that the value of Hulk #181 "crashed"...?

 

Really?

 

Then for the second highest grade (of which there are also only 3 copies) we have a cerebus 1 maaaaaaaybe go for 3k. But more likely 2500-2800, and all three of those are SS file copies. For hulk 181 the second highest grade (for which there are 79 copies) is 11-12k.

 

This is not a valid comparison. You cannot compare a 9.2 to a 9.8.

 

After that cerebus 1 drops like a rock in "value" while hulk 181 slowly tapers down, maintaining a four digit selling price all the way down to a 7.0, and raw, tattered rags with no MVS selling for close to 400, which is about what a VF raw copy of cerebus 1 last went for on ebay.

 

So which comic really is more "valuable"?

 

In 9.2 and above? Clearly, the Cerebus #1.

 

I thought we established this pages ago.

 

If you look only at the three highest graded 9.4 examples of cerebus 1 that have sold in 10 years versus the 350 copies of a 9.4 hulk 181 (a multiple of over 100x), then cerebus 1 is. But of course that would be downright silly if you were to do that. Wouldn't it be, overstreet?

 

Because if you compare the single highest graded copy of hulk 181 to the single highest graded for cerebus 1.....hulk wins. By a lot.

 

Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison.

 

Again: Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison.

 

If you compare sales of the second highest graded copies to each other .... hulk wins. By a lot.

 

Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison.

 

Again: Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison.

 

If you compare each book grade for grade (other than the single highest for each book)....hulk wins..... in every single grade, and by an ever expanding percentage as you go further down the grading scale.

 

To sum it up....hulk 181 wins.

 

This is not true, as has already been explained ad nauseam.

 

The last remaining crux of RMA (and a couple others) pro-cerebus 1 argument is a literalist's approach: "three highest graded 9.4 copies of cerebus 1 have sold for more than any one of the 350 copies of 9.4 hulk 181's have sold for, so overstreet got it right." They won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution for hulk 181 in grade,

 

Words literally fail to express the depth of astonishment I feel at reading such a statement. You literally made my jaw drop when I read this statement.

 

No one "won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution", because that is precisely WHY Hulk #181 is worth less. There is more SUPPLY.

 

That's the "supply" part of "supply and demand."

 

Jaydog, seriously man. Seriously.

 

even as they trumpet the stratospheric sales price of the ONE copy of the single highest graded 9.4 copy of cerebus 1 that just sold (for over 1000 LESS than it did five years ago), and salivate over what ONE 9.8 copy of a cerebus 1 might go for if it ever came to market. (On a side note, if that ever did happen, I wonder what that would do to the value of your 9.4's.... )

 

Please stop using propaganda words like "trumpet" and "salivate." You can make your point without resorting to propaganda, honest.

 

No, overstreet got it wrong. Very wrong. Because in the real world hulk 181 is the undisputed king of the BA, value-wise, importance to the hobby-wise, historical-wise, and every single other "wise" you can think of. When hulk 181 tanked it literally took the entire Bronze Age with it.

 

In "the real world", Cerebus #1 in 9.2 and above is worth more than Hulk #181. Period.

 

When did Hulk #181 tank? (Nevermind, you don't answer direct questions anyways.)

 

Cerebus 1 meanwhile is a foot note. A novelty. A curiosity. If the book suddenly tanked in value over night it wouldn't even cause a ripple in the market. Does that mean the book is a piece of junk and has no value ? Obviously not. Clearly it has its fans, devotees, and passionate collectors. And that is never a bad thing for the hobby. Just let's not lose sight of the big picture and common sense. The OP originally began this thread questioning the book's place on overstreet's top BA list ahead of hulk 181. For all the reasons cited above, his point is well taken. Thanks for reading.

 

-J.

 

Yes, let's please not lose sight of the big picture and common sense.

 

Cerebus #1 is a more valuable book than Hulk #181 in high grade, for all the reasons already well explained. No "what ifs". No hyperbole. That is the reason why it is in the top BA list ahead of Hulk #181: because it is worth more in high grade.

 

The numbers don't lie.

 

I just do not want to imagine that you actually believe all of this.

 

 

Thank you RMA, you did not fail to disappoint. But before I leave you to this thread and your beloved copy of Cerebus 1, I will say this...

 

1) Prior to ebay, GPA, the internet, and cell phones, Overstreet relied on reports from dealers and LCS for its data. Guess what dude, it's 2014 now. He MAY still get SOME info that way still, but the vast majority of data is readily available to the public, and easily verifiable by anyone in this day and age.

 

2) The most recent sale of a Hulk 181 beats anything a Cerebus 1 has ever sold for in a 9.2. Don't have any public sales in a 9.2 for a Cerebus 1 in nearly 10 years? That's not Hulk 181's problem. Anything you "think" a 9.2 would go for now is just speculation. But estimates have been 2500-2800, based on the recent, verifiable sale of an 8.5 (fourth highest graded) which could barely eek out a meager $850.

 

3) When did Hulk 181 crash? Remember when a 9.8 was going for 20 grand? Oh, okay.

 

4) People don't pay a premium to have the highest graded example of a book, regardless of what that "highest grade" might be? Really RMA? For someone who purports to carry the torch for "facts" and "truth", you are so frequently WRONG it boggles the mind. Instead of seizing on minutiae to distract from the point, let's try staying on it: New Mutants 98, 10.0 anyone? GL 76, 9.6? Hulk 181, 9.9? ASM 194, 9.9? Avengers 4, 9.6? All of these "single highest grade" copies sold for EXTREME multiples of their next highest graded counterparts. Hey my man, just out of curiosity, what do you think that "highest graded" Action 1, 9.0 on ebay will go for? You think the buyer will end up paying a premium for that? Do you think that it will matter to him that there's another 9.0 on the census? It's still the "Single highest grade" available for the book. I didn't say the "single copy with the highest grade". See the difference between the two terms now?

 

So why do you think this is not a phenomenon that is in fact, very real and palpable, and why do you think it doesn't apply to the ONE grade (the highest), that Cerebus 1 currently out-sells Hulk 181 for (and pardon me, FIVE copies in ten years, because that makes such a big difference to the point than three copies in ten years)?

 

Why do you think it doesn't apply? Because it is inconvenient to what you evidently need to believe about this book. You're right, no one needs to make a case for Hulk 181, the book stands on its own as one of the pillars of the entire hobby. Deal with it. It's the Cerebus 1 that needs the apologists, qualifiers, bargaining, excuse-making and a dozen caveats for it to have any kind of relevance beyond the collections of die hard devotees. Which is, as I said before, also good for the hobby, but not in the same way that Hulk 181 is good for the hobby, and not on anywhere near the same level.

 

You can go on and on about how the 5 copies of Cerebus 9.4 are "worth" more than a hulk 181 in a 9.4, because at this point, that's all you have left to hang your hat on I get it.

 

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

I've already addressed all of this, and you remain incorrect. There's really nothing more that can be said about ground already covered.

 

I'm still waiting for your weighted analysis of Hulk #181 in all grades.

 

A diatribe against Cerebus #1 isn't a weighted analysis. I would like figures, in all grades, which is what an analysis is. Leave Cerebus #1 out of the picture, just focus on Hulk #181.

 

I am still interested in this information, if you are willing and able to give it.

 

 

Just wanted to be in the longest post/quote I have ever seen.

[Jaydogrules]

1) Prior to ebay, GPA, the internet, and cell phones, Overstreet relied on reports from dealers and LCS for its data. Guess what dude, it's 2014 now. He MAY still get SOME info that way still, but the vast majority of data is readily available to the public, and easily verifiable by anyone in this day and age.

 

2) The most recent sale of a Hulk 181 beats anything a Cerebus 1 has ever sold for in a 9.2. Don't have any public sales in a 9.2 for a Cerebus 1 in nearly 10 years? That's not Hulk 181's problem. Anything you "think" a 9.2 would go for now is just speculation. But estimates have been 2500-2800, based on the recent, verifiable sale of an 8.5 (fourth highest graded) which could barely eek out a meager $850.

 

 

1) Really? Would you care to show me sales data from every small local comic show, every major convention, every dealer website, etc. for the last year? Certainly more sales data is publicly available now than in 1980, but give me a break.

 

2) The most recent sale of Hulk 181 9.2 is also more than any Hulk 181 has sold for (at least recently, I don't know if any sold for more ten years ago or whatever). A single sale of a common book that sells regularly is nearly meaningless.

 

..As are one or two sales of a book with a miniscule print run every 10 years. You can't have it both ways Lazy.

 

-J.

 

Yes, you can. "have it both ways" (which is not really the case here )

 

You have to go with the data you have.

 

The data you have on the Hulk #181 states that you are being quite unreasonable using the most extreme price the book has ever sold for in that grade as a valid example.

 

You're right, I agree. We work with what we have. And right now, for a hulk 181, 9.2, that's what we have. We also have this now:

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=incredible+hulk+181&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=1&LH_Sold=1&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=1000&_udhi=10000000&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=1&_sanli=1&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=200&LH_Complete=1

 

Look, there's a 7.0 that just broke $1000 for the first time, just four days after the new 9.2 high. That means that a hulk 181, 7.0 is now 15% more "valuable" than a cerebus 1, 8.5. According to our most recent sales data.

 

-J.

[AlexanderM]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

 

Jay... that is bad form....

 

using facts.....

 

 

Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical...

 

That's a fact, alright.

 

That is not what you are doing with Cerebus? Using one or a few sales to claim the value?

 

I know you're being snide, but I'll answer you sincerely:

 

When one or a few sales is all the information you have, it is reasonable to draw conclusions, to extrapolate based on that information.

 

Understand: there is a significant difference between ONE sale and A FEW sales. Substantially so.

 

With Hulk #181, is it NOT REASONABLE to draw the most extreme example ever to "make a point", when there are literally hundreds of other "data points" that paint a different picture.

 

We must use our reason, gentlemen. We cannot just pick whatever suits us out of the air and go with it.

 

I know you are not scientifically trained, but believe me, this is clearly dead wrong.

 

Imagine this... if aliens came to earth and only had time to pick up one beam of stuff quickly... and when they came back to their planet.. the first and only life form they saw was a snail.. would it then be reasonable to draw the conclusion that this is the typical life form on earth?

 

If you want to be really debative I could have said they found the colour pink.. and saw that as typical of the colours on earth.

 

It is clearly NOT reasonable to make conclusions on too limited information. It is understandable that there is no more information, but that still does not allow us to make conclusions.

Edited August 22, 2014 by AlexanderM

[OliverS-migration]

As others have suggested Jdog doesn't seem to really believe his arguments about Overstreet and Hulk and is trolling...or...maybe it's very important for Jdog for some unfathomable reason to prove that Cerebus is worth less than it is -despite him saying he likes the comic his description of it is repeatedly unnecessarily dismissive.

Say what you want but Cerebus is extremely unique and has an incredibly important place in comic history -it's synonymous with "Creator Rights", the creator was called the "Godfather of indie comics", he took on Diamond and changed the pay quotas -the comic is seen as the starting point of a whole indie comic industry, it inspired some of the biggest creators, comics, movie franchises and comic book companies like Image. Wolverine on the other hand might fall out of favor and disappear tomorrow and be forgotten. People are fickle. It has not inspired anything and when it comes down to it is another cool superhero in a ever increasing long list of top tier cool superheroes. Nothing against Wolverine or superheroes -it is what it is.

[Prince Namor]

Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered either one or the other - for $500.

 

Why?

 

They know they'll make a much higher profit on it.

 

It's more valuable.

 

You can't dispute this.

[Jaydogrules]

 

Actually Alexander as of now cerebus is only more "valuable" than hulk 181 in exactly ONE grade.....A 9.4.

 

This isn't true, you know this isn't true, it's been explained repeatedly why this isn't true, but you keep on repeating things that aren't true.

 

Jaydog, why do you keep doing this? It has been explained why this isn't true, yet you keep repeating it as if it is.

 

Why?

 

Are you aware you're doing it? Are you a student of propaganda, which says to just lie, lie, lie, and the longer and more boldly and often you lie, the more likely it is to be believed?

 

What you have said IS NOT TRUE. The 9.2 price you're comparing is from 2005, and you're comparing it to a price from 2014. You CANNOT make that comparison without including that information. It is DISHONEST to continue to do so.

 

If a 9.6 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4? If a 9.8 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4?

 

If you are interested in being taken seriously around here, stop repeating things that are patently untrue.

 

So essentially the pro-cerebus argument at this point is that those 3 highest graded cerebus 1's that have sold three times in ten years for up to 10k, warrant the book being ranked higher on overstreet's list.

 

There are five 9.4 Cerebus #1s, not three. The book has sold four times, as recorded at GPA, in ten years, not three. Details matter.

 

And as stated multiple times, in multiple ways, no, that is NOT the argument that is being made. GPA data is just one source that the OPG uses to determine values.

 

The fact that hulk 181 blows it out of the water in literally every single other grade, even though there are 50 times more copies of it out there apparently counts for nothing.

 

Hulk #181 does NOT "blow it out of the water" in any grade above 9.0.

 

The pro-cerebus folks

 

 

There aren't "pro-cerebus" folks. There are "pro-fact", "pro-reason", "pro-logic" folks.

 

don't care to acknowledge the great likelihood that those three 9.4 cerebus 1's, when available, get bid up by fans who are chasing "single highest graded" books as trophy pieces for their collection.

 

So? Is demand more or less valid based on why it exists? "Oh, THAT price doesn't count, because he's buying it as a trophy piece!"...?

 

And "single highest graded" means there is ONE copy at the highest grade. "Single" refers to the quantity of the slabs, not the quality of the height.

 

Kind of like that 9.6 GL 76. Or even the 9.9 ASM 194 that went for 5k, I believe on heritage recently. A 9.8 of the same ASM 194 drops all the way down to about $850. Methinks a similar phenomenon would explain why cerebus 1 is such a non factor in every single grade that isn't the single highest grade....

 

No. It doesn't work that way.

 

So let's talk about those "single highest graded" book collectors. What were they willing to pay for that in a hulk 181. $150k is what they were willing to pay. Sorry folks, it is an apt comparison.

 

Sorry, Jaydog, but it's not. But you keep repeating it, and I'll keep disputing it.

 

For whatever reason, cerebus 1 is not available past a 9.4. For cerebus a 9.4 is the "single highest grade".

 

That's not what "single highest grade" means.

 

For hulk 181 it is a 9.9.

 

That IS what "single highest grade" means. Because there's a SINGLE copy in that grade.

 

Hulk 181 had a boatload more chances to yield a 9.9 because it has a far, far greater print run than cerebus.

 

A "boatload"?

 

I don't think you really understand what the 9.9 and 10 grades really mean.

 

And what does hulk 181 go for in the second highest grade ? A 9.8 just went for about 12k if I'm not mistaken. Let's please not try to have our cake and eat it too by hyping up how "rare" and "important" cerebus 1 is to justify what it sells for, and then whine about how there's no sales data and point to mysterious, off the books sales that only overstreet knows about to explain your position.

 

You just contradicted yourself in one breath.

 

If it's rare, it's not going to have a lot of sales data. Not "no." Just not much.

 

And you are mischaracterizing the situation for your own argument yet again: OPG doesn't use "mysterious, off the books sales"...there's nothing "mysterious" or "off the books" about it: GPA isn't the sole source of information that the OPG uses.

 

How do you think Overstreet came up with prices for 3 decades before CGC and GPA existed?

 

~ ahem ~

 

Continuing on....

 

And then simultaneously knock hulk 181 for being so plentiful and then disregard its top sales in its respective top grades because they are not literally "the identical" grade as cerebus' top grade (being only a 9.4). If you really think cerebus 1 is worthy of swimming in hulk 181's waters, then let it, and let's see what happens.....

 

I have to say this again: comparing "top grades" is not appropriate when those top grades are not the same

 

"The top grade for Book X is 6.5, and the top grade for Book Y is 9.8, so it's valid to compare the value of a 6.5 against a 9.8, because they're both "top grade."

 

That is self-evidently false.

 

You use the language of the propagandist very well, Jaydog. You use emotionally charged words like "hyping" and "whine" and "mysterious" and "knock"...none of which anyone has done.

 

This has been a sober discussion, and no one has resorted to hyperbole, speculation, and emotionally charged buzzwords to discredit the opposing argument except you and some of those making the same argument.

 

"Well, what if THIS, and what if THAT, and what if the OTHER??"

 

It's not about "What ifs"...it's about what IS.

 

So in an apples to apples comparison we have a cerebus 1 in the single highest grade get bid up to 9k recently. For hulk 181 the single highest grade gets bid up to 150k, four years ago, long after the book crashed and long before its recent and powerful resurgence.

 

It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9.

 

Repeat: It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9.

 

"Long after the book crashed"...?

 

Did you really just say...on this message board...that the value of Hulk #181 "crashed"...?

 

Really?

 

Then for the second highest grade (of which there are also only 3 copies) we have a cerebus 1 maaaaaaaybe go for 3k. But more likely 2500-2800, and all three of those are SS file copies. For hulk 181 the second highest grade (for which there are 79 copies) is 11-12k.

 

This is not a valid comparison. You cannot compare a 9.2 to a 9.8.

 

After that cerebus 1 drops like a rock in "value" while hulk 181 slowly tapers down, maintaining a four digit selling price all the way down to a 7.0, and raw, tattered rags with no MVS selling for close to 400, which is about what a VF raw copy of cerebus 1 last went for on ebay.

 

So which comic really is more "valuable"?

 

In 9.2 and above? Clearly, the Cerebus #1.

 

I thought we established this pages ago.

 

If you look only at the three highest graded 9.4 examples of cerebus 1 that have sold in 10 years versus the 350 copies of a 9.4 hulk 181 (a multiple of over 100x), then cerebus 1 is. But of course that would be downright silly if you were to do that. Wouldn't it be, overstreet?

 

Because if you compare the single highest graded copy of hulk 181 to the single highest graded for cerebus 1.....hulk wins. By a lot.

 

Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison.

 

Again: Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison.

 

If you compare sales of the second highest graded copies to each other .... hulk wins. By a lot.

 

Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison.

 

Again: Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison.

 

If you compare each book grade for grade (other than the single highest for each book)....hulk wins..... in every single grade, and by an ever expanding percentage as you go further down the grading scale.

 

To sum it up....hulk 181 wins.

 

This is not true, as has already been explained ad nauseam.

 

The last remaining crux of RMA (and a couple others) pro-cerebus 1 argument is a literalist's approach: "three highest graded 9.4 copies of cerebus 1 have sold for more than any one of the 350 copies of 9.4 hulk 181's have sold for, so overstreet got it right." They won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution for hulk 181 in grade,

 

Words literally fail to express the depth of astonishment I feel at reading such a statement. You literally made my jaw drop when I read this statement.

 

No one "won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution", because that is precisely WHY Hulk #181 is worth less. There is more SUPPLY.

 

That's the "supply" part of "supply and demand."

 

Jaydog, seriously man. Seriously.

 

even as they trumpet the stratospheric sales price of the ONE copy of the single highest graded 9.4 copy of cerebus 1 that just sold (for over 1000 LESS than it did five years ago), and salivate over what ONE 9.8 copy of a cerebus 1 might go for if it ever came to market. (On a side note, if that ever did happen, I wonder what that would do to the value of your 9.4's.... )

 

Please stop using propaganda words like "trumpet" and "salivate." You can make your point without resorting to propaganda, honest.

 

No, overstreet got it wrong. Very wrong. Because in the real world hulk 181 is the undisputed king of the BA, value-wise, importance to the hobby-wise, historical-wise, and every single other "wise" you can think of. When hulk 181 tanked it literally took the entire Bronze Age with it.

 

In "the real world", Cerebus #1 in 9.2 and above is worth more than Hulk #181. Period.

 

When did Hulk #181 tank? (Nevermind, you don't answer direct questions anyways.)

 

Cerebus 1 meanwhile is a foot note. A novelty. A curiosity. If the book suddenly tanked in value over night it wouldn't even cause a ripple in the market. Does that mean the book is a piece of junk and has no value ? Obviously not. Clearly it has its fans, devotees, and passionate collectors. And that is never a bad thing for the hobby. Just let's not lose sight of the big picture and common sense. The OP originally began this thread questioning the book's place on overstreet's top BA list ahead of hulk 181. For all the reasons cited above, his point is well taken. Thanks for reading.

 

-J.

 

Yes, let's please not lose sight of the big picture and common sense.

 

Cerebus #1 is a more valuable book than Hulk #181 in high grade, for all the reasons already well explained. No "what ifs". No hyperbole. That is the reason why it is in the top BA list ahead of Hulk #181: because it is worth more in high grade.

 

The numbers don't lie.

 

I just do not want to imagine that you actually believe all of this.

 

 

Thank you RMA, you did not fail to disappoint. But before I leave you to this thread and your beloved copy of Cerebus 1, I will say this...

 

1) Prior to ebay, GPA, the internet, and cell phones, Overstreet relied on reports from dealers and LCS for its data. Guess what dude, it's 2014 now. He MAY still get SOME info that way still, but the vast majority of data is readily available to the public, and easily verifiable by anyone in this day and age.

 

2) The most recent sale of a Hulk 181 beats anything a Cerebus 1 has ever sold for in a 9.2. Don't have any public sales in a 9.2 for a Cerebus 1 in nearly 10 years? That's not Hulk 181's problem. Anything you "think" a 9.2 would go for now is just speculation. But estimates have been 2500-2800, based on the recent, verifiable sale of an 8.5 (fourth highest graded) which could barely eek out a meager $850.

 

3) When did Hulk 181 crash? Remember when a 9.8 was going for 20 grand? Oh, okay.

 

4) People don't pay a premium to have the highest graded example of a book, regardless of what that "highest grade" might be? Really RMA? For someone who purports to carry the torch for "facts" and "truth", you are so frequently WRONG it boggles the mind. Instead of seizing on minutiae to distract from the point, let's try staying on it: New Mutants 98, 10.0 anyone? GL 76, 9.6? Hulk 181, 9.9? ASM 194, 9.9? Avengers 4, 9.6? All of these "single highest grade" copies sold for EXTREME multiples of their next highest graded counterparts. Hey my man, just out of curiosity, what do you think that "highest graded" Action 1, 9.0 on ebay will go for? You think the buyer will end up paying a premium for that? Do you think that it will matter to him that there's another 9.0 on the census? It's still the "Single highest grade" available for the book. I didn't say the "single copy with the highest grade". See the difference between the two terms now?

 

So why do you think this is not a phenomenon that is in fact, very real and palpable, and why do you think it doesn't apply to the ONE grade (the highest), that Cerebus 1 currently out-sells Hulk 181 for (and pardon me, FIVE copies in ten years, because that makes such a big difference to the point than three copies in ten years)?

 

Why do you think it doesn't apply? Because it is inconvenient to what you evidently need to believe about this book. You're right, no one needs to make a case for Hulk 181, the book stands on its own as one of the pillars of the entire hobby. Deal with it. It's the Cerebus 1 that needs the apologists, qualifiers, bargaining, excuse-making and a dozen caveats for it to have any kind of relevance beyond the collections of die hard devotees. Which is, as I said before, also good for the hobby, but not in the same way that Hulk 181 is good for the hobby, and not on anywhere near the same level.

 

You can go on and on about how the 5 copies of Cerebus 9.4 are "worth" more than a hulk 181 in a 9.4, because at this point, that's all you have left to hang your hat on I get it.

 

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

I've already addressed all of this, and you remain incorrect. There's really nothing more that can be said about ground already covered.

 

I'm still waiting for your weighted analysis of Hulk #181 in all grades.

 

A diatribe against Cerebus #1 isn't a weighted analysis. I would like figures, in all grades, which is what an analysis is. Leave Cerebus #1 out of the picture, just focus on Hulk #181.

 

I am still interested in this information, if you are willing and able to give it.

 

 

RMA, I provided you with a very detailed analysis already to support my position. I have also linked you to at least a half dozen recent sales.

 

I actually do feel like I'm starting to beat up on you (and Cerebus 1) a little bit at this point. That was not my original intent. You just riled me up a little when you started calling me a "troll". I think it is obvious that I put enough time and thought into (at least most) of my posts to not be dubbed a "troll", whether you agree with my points or not.

 

I have stated my piece.

 

Again, I admire your rhetorical and debate skills, and appreciate the time you obviously put into your posts as well. I also like your passion for the books that you love. We are both brothers in our comic book geekdom, and I hope that you will feel more than welcome to continue disagreeing with me in the furture in other threads.

 

I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

-J.

[Prince Namor]

Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered either one or the other - for $500.

 

Why?

 

They know they'll make a much higher profit on it.

 

It's more valuable.

 

You can't dispute this.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

1) Prior to ebay, GPA, the internet, and cell phones, Overstreet relied on reports from dealers and LCS for its data. Guess what dude, it's 2014 now. He MAY still get SOME info that way still, but the vast majority of data is readily available to the public, and easily verifiable by anyone in this day and age.

 

Well, since you laid it out so easily, I guess I can answer a few points.

 

You don't know how Overstreet gets his information, other than what he tells you. You are not Overstreet. This is what Overstreet says about how they gather information:

 

"The resulting listings come through the observation and documentation of prices realized through hobby and trade shows, catalog sales, retail sales, and internet, live and mail-in auctions. Documented personal sales may also be included."

 

You have a basic misunderstanding of the comic book market if you believe that the sales of SLABBED comics represents the entire market as a whole. GPA ONLY reports the sales of SLABBED comics. Overstreet prices are generally, for RAW (and ALL) comics, and, while they certainly take sales of slabs into consideration, one must realize that slabs account for only a SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE BOOKS SOLD (including Hulk #181s) ON A YEARLY BASIS.

 

2) The most recent sale of a Hulk 181 beats anything a Cerebus 1 has ever sold for in a 9.2. Don't have any public sales in a 9.2 for a Cerebus 1 in nearly 10 years? That's not Hulk 181's problem. Anything you "think" a 9.2 would go for now is just speculation. But estimates have been 2500-2800, based on the recent, verifiable sale of an 8.5 (fourth highest graded) which could barely eek out a meager $850.

 

That is correct. It is speculation. Which is why neither you NOR I can say without a doubt either way which one is CURRENTLY more valuable in 9.2, which is the point you are missing.

 

I don't agree with your estimate, and I have given you solid reasons as to why. Is your estimate as good, or better, than mine? Maybe, maybe not. How does one value a price estimation? Reputation, knowledge, reasonableness...

 

3) When did Hulk 181 crash? Remember when a 9.8 was going for 20 grand? Oh, okay.

 

That's your "crash"? Because more copies came onto the market, reducing what was an artificially high price, that's now a "crash"?

 

And you give one grade?

 

One grade decides that the market "crashed" for the book in ALL grades...?

 

 

That doesn't sound quite right....I dunno...

 

4) People don't pay a premium to have the highest graded example of a book, regardless of what that "highest grade" might be? Really RMA? For someone who purports to carry the torch for "facts" and "truth", you are so frequently WRONG it boggles the mind.

 

You made that up. I never said any such thing.

 

I repeat: I never said any such thing.

 

Once again: I never said any such thing.

 

You make me repeat myself because you continue to do this.

 

You cannot invent things, claim I said them, and then attack those positions. That's what we call a "straw-man argument."

 

And...seriously, Jaydog, enough with the propaganda.

 

The problem is you comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9. That is the problem. I didn't say that there isn't a premium paid for "the highest grade available." Of course there is. No one has said otherwise. The problem is you trying to compare 9.4 to 9.9.

 

Instead of seizing on minutiae to distract from the point, let's try staying on it: New Mutants 98, 10.0 anyone? GL 76, 9.6? Hulk 181, 9.9? ASM 194, 9.9? Avengers 4, 9.6? All of these "single highest grade" copies sold for EXTREME multiples of their next highest graded counterparts. Hey my man, just out of curiosity, what do you think that "highest graded" Action 1, 9.0 on ebay will go for? You think the buyer will end up paying a premium for that? Do you think that it will matter to him that there's another 9.0 on the census? It's still the "Single highest grade" available for the book. I didn't say the "single copy with the highest grade". See the difference between the two terms now?

 

You continue to demonstrate...after I already explained it to you...that you do not know what the phrase "single highest grade" means.

 

It means there is a SINGLE COPY IN THE HIGHEST GRADE. It does NOT mean "the highest grade, regardless of how many copies." The way you are using it is REDUNDANT (ALL grades are "single." There is only ONE grade level of 6.5, for example), and NOT the way the phrase is used in the vernacular.

 

To communicate effectively, you must use the language correctly. Do not think this is trivial...it is, perhaps, the entire reason you are having such a problem with this discussion.

 

So why do you think this is not a phenomenon that is in fact, very real and palpable, and why do you think it doesn't apply to the ONE grade (the highest), that Cerebus 1 currently out-sells Hulk 181 for (and pardon me, FIVE copies in ten years, because that makes such a big difference to the point than three copies in ten years)?

 

Why do you think it doesn't apply? Because it is inconvenient to what you evidently need to believe about this book. You're right, no one needs to make a case for Hulk 181, the book stands on its own as one of the pillars of the entire hobby. Deal with it.

 

Ok. How many times, and in how many ways, do you need to be told by me that Hulk #181 is one of the most important books ever published, and that it far outshines Cerebus #1 in importance?

 

How many times, Jaydog? How can I say it, in such a way, that you finally absorb the fact that no one is disputing the importance of Hulk #181 over Cerebus #1?

 

How many, Jaydog?

 

Why do you keep bringing it up, when it is not under dispute?

 

I know why you keep bringing it up: because you resent the fact that Cerebus #1 is more VALUABLE than Hulk #181, and this doesn't sit well with you, considering how important Hulk #181 is.

 

You resent it, so you must keep going back to the same trough: "It's more important, it's more important, it's MORRRRRRE IMPORTANNNNTTT!!!!!!"

 

....when no one has disputed that, in the tens of thousands of words posted in this thread.

 

 

It's the Cerebus 1 that needs the apologists, qualifiers, bargaining, excuse-making and a dozen caveats for it to have any kind of relevance beyond the collections of die hard devotees. Which is, as I said before, also good for the hobby, but not in the same way that Hulk 181 is good for the hobby, and not on anywhere near the same level.

 

You can go on and on about how the 5 copies of Cerebus 9.4 are "worth" more than a hulk 181 in a 9.4, because at this point, that's all you have left to hang your hat on I get it.

 

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

-J.

 

Until they look at the sales data.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

RMA, I provided you with a very detailed analysis already to support my position. I have also linked you to at least a half dozen recent sales.

 

You said there needed to be a weighted analysis of Hulk #181 in all grades. That would include a conclusion like "copy for copy, Hulk #181 is worth this basis" and "dollar for dollar, Hulk #181 is worth that basis."

 

I see no such analysis, of any kind.

 

I actually do feel like I'm starting to beat up on you (and Cerebus 1) a little bit at this point.

 

You are an excellent propagandist, I'll grant you that.

 

However...you need not worry about who is beating on whom. I appreciate your concern, but it is misplaced and unnecessary.

 

 

That was not my original intent. You just riled me up a little when you started calling me a "troll".

 

You are an excellent propagandist. Propagandists know how to twist the language to mean something it didn't start out as.

 

I didn't call you a troll. I said you were baiting, and borderline trolling, me for a response, which is accurate, and not the same thing.

 

You sure do have a way with the language.

 

By the way...I would think calling you an excellent propagandist would be far more insulting to you than calling you a "troll", but what do I know?

 

I think it is obvious that I put enough time and thought into (at least most) of my posts to not be dubbed a "troll", whether you agree with my points or not.

 

Which is why I didn't call you a troll.

 

I have stated my piece.

 

Again, I admire your rhetorical and debate skills, and appreciate the time you obviously put into your posts as well. I also like your passion for the books that you love. We are both brothers in our comic book geekdom, and I hope that you will feel more than welcome to continue disagreeing with me in the furture in other threads.

 

I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

-J.

 

I appreciate the flattery, but would far rather have reason.

 

(thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

 

Jay... that is bad form....

 

using facts.....

 

 

Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical...

 

That's a fact, alright.

 

That is not what you are doing with Cerebus? Using one or a few sales to claim the value?

 

I know you're being snide, but I'll answer you sincerely:

 

When one or a few sales is all the information you have, it is reasonable to draw conclusions, to extrapolate based on that information.

 

Understand: there is a significant difference between ONE sale and A FEW sales. Substantially so.

 

With Hulk #181, is it NOT REASONABLE to draw the most extreme example ever to "make a point", when there are literally hundreds of other "data points" that paint a different picture.

 

We must use our reason, gentlemen. We cannot just pick whatever suits us out of the air and go with it.

 

I know you are not scientifically trained, but believe me, this is clearly dead wrong.

 

That's an interesting conclusion, on both parts. You know nothing about me. How, then, do you conclude I am not "scientifically trained"?

 

Imagine this... if aliens came to earth and only had time to pick up one beam of stuff quickly... and when they came back to their planet.. the first and only life form they saw was a snail.. would it then be reasonable to draw the conclusion that this is the typical life form on earth?

 

That analogy is really quite bad. I mean really, quite awful. We are talking about the value of comic books, and using sales prices of those comic books to make our points.

 

Your analogy is grossly broad to be of any value.

 

If you want to be really debative I could have said they found the colour pink.. and saw that as typical of the colours on earth.

 

It is clearly NOT reasonable to make conclusions on too limited information. It is understandable that there is no more information, but that still does not allow us to make conclusions.

 

Sorry, but in the limited scope of what we're discussing, you are incorrect.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered either one or the other - for $500.

 

Why?

 

They know they'll make a much higher profit on it.

 

It's more valuable.

 

You can't dispute this.

 

This.

 

Put it another way...

 

If you offer a dealer a Hulk #181 9.4 for $5,000...and a Cerebus #1 9.4 for $5,000....which one will sell for $5,000?

[AlexanderM]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

 

Jay... that is bad form....

 

using facts.....

 

 

Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical...

 

That's a fact, alright.

 

That is not what you are doing with Cerebus? Using one or a few sales to claim the value?

 

I know you're being snide, but I'll answer you sincerely:

 

When one or a few sales is all the information you have, it is reasonable to draw conclusions, to extrapolate based on that information.

 

Understand: there is a significant difference between ONE sale and A FEW sales. Substantially so.

 

With Hulk #181, is it NOT REASONABLE to draw the most extreme example ever to "make a point", when there are literally hundreds of other "data points" that paint a different picture.

 

We must use our reason, gentlemen. We cannot just pick whatever suits us out of the air and go with it.

 

I know you are not scientifically trained, but believe me, this is clearly dead wrong.

 

That's an interesting conclusion, on both parts. You know nothing about me. How, then, do you conclude I am not "scientifically trained"?

 

Imagine this... if aliens came to earth and only had time to pick up one beam of stuff quickly... and when they came back to their planet.. the first and only life form they saw was a snail.. would it then be reasonable to draw the conclusion that this is the typical life form on earth?

 

That analogy is really quite bad. I mean really, quite awful. We are talking about the value of comic books, and using sales prices of those comic books to make our points.

 

Your analogy is grossly broad to be of any value.

 

If you want to be really debative I could have said they found the colour pink.. and saw that as typical of the colours on earth.

 

It is clearly NOT reasonable to make conclusions on too limited information. It is understandable that there is no more information, but that still does not allow us to make conclusions.

 

Sorry, but in the limited scope of what we're discussing, you are incorrect.

 

Because I am, and you are wrong.

[Prince Namor]

Yep. It can't be disputed. It's real world application of economics.

 

No matter what jaydog or anyone thinks, (Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered either one or the other - for $500.) is FACT.

 

Because it's a more valuable book.

 

[PeterPark]

So, if you had only one opportunity in your life time to add only one of these books to your collection in CGC 9.2 which would it be?

 

Hulk 181

 

or

 

Cerebus 1

 

Remember, only one chance in a lifetime to pick one of these 2 books (and both happen to be CGC 9.2s with white pages).

 

Me personally? The Cerebus 1. But that has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

I would take a 35 cent Scooby Doo #1 over either of them, and I demand to see it crack the OSPG Top Ten immediately.

 

So would I

 

Show me someone who wouldn't so I can trade them my Hulk 181...