Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87 3 3

[AlexanderM]

 

Actually Alexander as of now cerebus is only more "valuable" than hulk 181 in exactly ONE grade.....A 9.4.

 

This isn't true, you know this isn't true, it's been explained repeatedly why this isn't true, but you keep on repeating things that aren't true.

 

Jaydog, why do you keep doing this? It has been explained why this isn't true, yet you keep repeating it as if it is.

 

Why?

 

Are you aware you're doing it? Are you a student of propaganda, which says to just lie, lie, lie, and the longer and more boldly and often you lie, the more likely it is to be believed?

 

What you have said IS NOT TRUE. The 9.2 price you're comparing is from 2005, and you're comparing it to a price from 2014. You CANNOT make that comparison without including that information. It is DISHONEST to continue to do so.

 

If a 9.6 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4? If a 9.8 shows up, do you think it will sell for LESS THAN a 9.4?

 

If you are interested in being taken seriously around here, stop repeating things that are patently untrue.

 

So essentially the pro-cerebus argument at this point is that those 3 highest graded cerebus 1's that have sold three times in ten years for up to 10k, warrant the book being ranked higher on overstreet's list.

 

There are five 9.4 Cerebus #1s, not three. The book has sold four times, as recorded at GPA, in ten years, not three. Details matter.

 

And as stated multiple times, in multiple ways, no, that is NOT the argument that is being made. GPA data is just one source that the OPG uses to determine values.

 

The fact that hulk 181 blows it out of the water in literally every single other grade, even though there are 50 times more copies of it out there apparently counts for nothing.

 

Hulk #181 does NOT "blow it out of the water" in any grade above 9.0.

 

The pro-cerebus folks

 

 

There aren't "pro-cerebus" folks. There are "pro-fact", "pro-reason", "pro-logic" folks.

 

don't care to acknowledge the great likelihood that those three 9.4 cerebus 1's, when available, get bid up by fans who are chasing "single highest graded" books as trophy pieces for their collection.

 

So? Is demand more or less valid based on why it exists? "Oh, THAT price doesn't count, because he's buying it as a trophy piece!"...?

 

And "single highest graded" means there is ONE copy at the highest grade. "Single" refers to the quantity of the slabs, not the quality of the height.

 

Kind of like that 9.6 GL 76. Or even the 9.9 ASM 194 that went for 5k, I believe on heritage recently. A 9.8 of the same ASM 194 drops all the way down to about $850. Methinks a similar phenomenon would explain why cerebus 1 is such a non factor in every single grade that isn't the single highest grade....

 

No. It doesn't work that way.

 

So let's talk about those "single highest graded" book collectors. What were they willing to pay for that in a hulk 181. $150k is what they were willing to pay. Sorry folks, it is an apt comparison.

 

Sorry, Jaydog, but it's not. But you keep repeating it, and I'll keep disputing it.

 

For whatever reason, cerebus 1 is not available past a 9.4. For cerebus a 9.4 is the "single highest grade".

 

That's not what "single highest grade" means.

 

For hulk 181 it is a 9.9.

 

That IS what "single highest grade" means. Because there's a SINGLE copy in that grade.

 

Hulk 181 had a boatload more chances to yield a 9.9 because it has a far, far greater print run than cerebus.

 

A "boatload"?

 

I don't think you really understand what the 9.9 and 10 grades really mean.

 

And what does hulk 181 go for in the second highest grade ? A 9.8 just went for about 12k if I'm not mistaken. Let's please not try to have our cake and eat it too by hyping up how "rare" and "important" cerebus 1 is to justify what it sells for, and then whine about how there's no sales data and point to mysterious, off the books sales that only overstreet knows about to explain your position.

 

You just contradicted yourself in one breath.

 

If it's rare, it's not going to have a lot of sales data. Not "no." Just not much.

 

And you are mischaracterizing the situation for your own argument yet again: OPG doesn't use "mysterious, off the books sales"...there's nothing "mysterious" or "off the books" about it: GPA isn't the sole source of information that the OPG uses.

 

How do you think Overstreet came up with prices for 3 decades before CGC and GPA existed?

 

~ ahem ~

 

Continuing on....

 

And then simultaneously knock hulk 181 for being so plentiful and then disregard its top sales in its respective top grades because they are not literally "the identical" grade as cerebus' top grade (being only a 9.4). If you really think cerebus 1 is worthy of swimming in hulk 181's waters, then let it, and let's see what happens.....

 

I have to say this again: comparing "top grades" is not appropriate when those top grades are not the same

 

"The top grade for Book X is 6.5, and the top grade for Book Y is 9.8, so it's valid to compare the value of a 6.5 against a 9.8, because they're both "top grade."

 

That is self-evidently false.

 

You use the language of the propagandist very well, Jaydog. You use emotionally charged words like "hyping" and "whine" and "mysterious" and "knock"...none of which anyone has done.

 

This has been a sober discussion, and no one has resorted to hyperbole, speculation, and emotionally charged buzzwords to discredit the opposing argument except you and some of those making the same argument.

 

"Well, what if THIS, and what if THAT, and what if the OTHER??"

 

It's not about "What ifs"...it's about what IS.

 

So in an apples to apples comparison we have a cerebus 1 in the single highest grade get bid up to 9k recently. For hulk 181 the single highest grade gets bid up to 150k, four years ago, long after the book crashed and long before its recent and powerful resurgence.

 

It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9.

 

Repeat: It is not an "apples to apples comparison" to compare the value of a book in 9.4 to a book in 9.9.

 

"Long after the book crashed"...?

 

Did you really just say...on this message board...that the value of Hulk #181 "crashed"...?

 

Really?

 

Then for the second highest grade (of which there are also only 3 copies) we have a cerebus 1 maaaaaaaybe go for 3k. But more likely 2500-2800, and all three of those are SS file copies. For hulk 181 the second highest grade (for which there are 79 copies) is 11-12k.

 

This is not a valid comparison. You cannot compare a 9.2 to a 9.8.

 

After that cerebus 1 drops like a rock in "value" while hulk 181 slowly tapers down, maintaining a four digit selling price all the way down to a 7.0, and raw, tattered rags with no MVS selling for close to 400, which is about what a VF raw copy of cerebus 1 last went for on ebay.

 

So which comic really is more "valuable"?

 

In 9.2 and above? Clearly, the Cerebus #1.

 

I thought we established this pages ago.

 

If you look only at the three highest graded 9.4 examples of cerebus 1 that have sold in 10 years versus the 350 copies of a 9.4 hulk 181 (a multiple of over 100x), then cerebus 1 is. But of course that would be downright silly if you were to do that. Wouldn't it be, overstreet?

 

Because if you compare the single highest graded copy of hulk 181 to the single highest graded for cerebus 1.....hulk wins. By a lot.

 

Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison.

 

Again: Comparing a 9.4 to a 9.9 is not a valid comparison.

 

If you compare sales of the second highest graded copies to each other .... hulk wins. By a lot.

 

Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison.

 

Again: Comparing a 9.2 to a 9.8 is not a valid comparison.

 

If you compare each book grade for grade (other than the single highest for each book)....hulk wins..... in every single grade, and by an ever expanding percentage as you go further down the grading scale.

 

To sum it up....hulk 181 wins.

 

This is not true, as has already been explained ad nauseam.

 

The last remaining crux of RMA (and a couple others) pro-cerebus 1 argument is a literalist's approach: "three highest graded 9.4 copies of cerebus 1 have sold for more than any one of the 350 copies of 9.4 hulk 181's have sold for, so overstreet got it right." They won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution for hulk 181 in grade,

 

Words literally fail to express the depth of astonishment I feel at reading such a statement. You literally made my jaw drop when I read this statement.

 

No one "won't acknowledge the possibility of price dilution", because that is precisely WHY Hulk #181 is worth less. There is more SUPPLY.

 

That's the "supply" part of "supply and demand."

 

Jaydog, seriously man. Seriously.

 

even as they trumpet the stratospheric sales price of the ONE copy of the single highest graded 9.4 copy of cerebus 1 that just sold (for over 1000 LESS than it did five years ago), and salivate over what ONE 9.8 copy of a cerebus 1 might go for if it ever came to market. (On a side note, if that ever did happen, I wonder what that would do to the value of your 9.4's.... )

 

Please stop using propaganda words like "trumpet" and "salivate." You can make your point without resorting to propaganda, honest.

 

No, overstreet got it wrong. Very wrong. Because in the real world hulk 181 is the undisputed king of the BA, value-wise, importance to the hobby-wise, historical-wise, and every single other "wise" you can think of. When hulk 181 tanked it literally took the entire Bronze Age with it.

 

In "the real world", Cerebus #1 in 9.2 and above is worth more than Hulk #181. Period.

 

When did Hulk #181 tank? (Nevermind, you don't answer direct questions anyways.)

 

Cerebus 1 meanwhile is a foot note. A novelty. A curiosity. If the book suddenly tanked in value over night it wouldn't even cause a ripple in the market. Does that mean the book is a piece of junk and has no value ? Obviously not. Clearly it has its fans, devotees, and passionate collectors. And that is never a bad thing for the hobby. Just let's not lose sight of the big picture and common sense. The OP originally began this thread questioning the book's place on overstreet's top BA list ahead of hulk 181. For all the reasons cited above, his point is well taken. Thanks for reading.

 

-J.

 

Yes, let's please not lose sight of the big picture and common sense.

 

Cerebus #1 is a more valuable book than Hulk #181 in high grade, for all the reasons already well explained. No "what ifs". No hyperbole. That is the reason why it is in the top BA list ahead of Hulk #181: because it is worth more in high grade.

 

The numbers don't lie.

 

I just do not want to imagine that you actually believe all of this.

 

 

Thank you RMA, you did not fail to disappoint. But before I leave you to this thread and your beloved copy of Cerebus 1, I will say this...

 

1) Prior to ebay, GPA, the internet, and cell phones, Overstreet relied on reports from dealers and LCS for its data. Guess what dude, it's 2014 now. He MAY still get SOME info that way still, but the vast majority of data is readily available to the public, and easily verifiable by anyone in this day and age.

 

2) The most recent sale of a Hulk 181 beats anything a Cerebus 1 has ever sold for in a 9.2. Don't have any public sales in a 9.2 for a Cerebus 1 in nearly 10 years? That's not Hulk 181's problem. Anything you "think" a 9.2 would go for now is just speculation. But estimates have been 2500-2800, based on the recent, verifiable sale of an 8.5 (fourth highest graded) which could barely eek out a meager $850.

 

3) When did Hulk 181 crash? Remember when a 9.8 was going for 20 grand? Oh, okay.

 

4) People don't pay a premium to have the highest graded example of a book, regardless of what that "highest grade" might be? Really RMA? For someone who purports to carry the torch for "facts" and "truth", you are so frequently WRONG it boggles the mind. Instead of seizing on minutiae to distract from the point, let's try staying on it: New Mutants 98, 10.0 anyone? GL 76, 9.6? Hulk 181, 9.9? ASM 194, 9.9? Avengers 4, 9.6? All of these "single highest grade" copies sold for EXTREME multiples of their next highest graded counterparts. Hey my man, just out of curiosity, what do you think that "highest graded" Action 1, 9.0 on ebay will go for? You think the buyer will end up paying a premium for that? Do you think that it will matter to him that there's another 9.0 on the census? It's still the "Single highest grade" available for the book. I didn't say the "single copy with the highest grade". See the difference now between the two terms now?

 

So why do you think this is not a phenomenon that is in fact, very real and palpable, and why do you think it doesn't apply to the ONE grade (the highest), that Cerebus 1 currently out-sells Hulk 181 for (and pardon me, FIVE copies in ten years, because that makes such a big difference to the point than three copies in ten years)?

 

Why do you think it doesn't apply? Because it is inconvenient to what you evidently need to believe about this book. You're right, no one needs to make a case for Hulk 181, the book stands on its own as one of the pillars of the entire hobby. Deal with it. It's the Cerebus 1 that needs the apologists, qualifiers, bargaining, excuse-making and a dozen caveats for it to have any kind of relevance beyond the collections of die hard devotees. Which is, as I said before, also good for the hobby, but not in the same way that Hulk 181 is good for the hobby, and not on anywhere near the same level.

 

You can go on and on about how the 5 copies of Cerebus 9.4 are "worth" more than a hulk 181 in a 9.4, because at this point, that's all you have left to hang your hat on I get it.

 

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

-J.

 

 

 

 

I didn't check GPA for Cerebus. I assumed it probably was more valuable because if it has just a little fan crowd it should be more valuable given the small print run. But if it cannot even outdo Hulk 181 on value given much lower print run... then there is really no discussion.

 

RMA - just this to you. You try to pick apart Jay's response, but you make so many mistakes it would fill the entire page to to the same to your posts. For example he says that 181 had a boatload more chances to get 9.9 or 10. Your answer is "I don't think you understand what 9.9 or 10 means". That is not only arrogant, it is also wrong.. He (like all of us) understands very very what 9.9 is... and no matter how strict the grade is, he is still right that the muuuuch higher print run gave the book a mich higher chance of getting 9.9. Probably 10 times, 100 times or even higher chance. That does not mean the chance is high. It might have gone 100 fold up from a very low decimal number. So it is still an extremely low chance, but it has increased many many times... and that was his point. You keep misunderstanding logic time and time again.

 

It is obvious Hulk 181 is a far more important book.

 

It is also more valuable? This can be a bit questioned I think, but in light of Jay's analysis above the most logical answer (despite a couple of guys' attempts to use school yard tactics to pretend to be right) is that Hulk 181 is also the most valuable.

 

And... if there was an even number of the two (let's say just as many cerebus as there are now H181) then a Cerebus would most probably be worth about the same as a Thor 158 or there about....across grades.

Edited August 22, 2014 by AlexanderM

[Gatsby77]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

[Jaydogrules]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

[porcupine48]

Access Denied.

[Lazyboy]

 

Key status is determined by importance. . Not value.

It is? So who determine's 'importance'? The market? Well in this case the market has spoken.

 

Chuck, please don't add to the number of posters here who confuse separate concepts. Key status is just a way of describing how important/significant a book is. It is linked to value because it affects demand, but value doesn't make keys.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Without going into it, you're just flat wrong. Every comic dealer would - if offered the same two books - purchase the Cerebus 1 in 9.4 every single time. In lower grades - like everyone is saying - the Hulk wins.

 

This.

 

I just filled in the details.

 

 

I've already stated my position, RMA. Jaydog himself conceded that the Cerebus #1 is the book to own in 9.4. Here's the one issue that troubles me:

 

If OPG doesn't rely solely on GPA, and they use arms length transactions along with other data points when determining a books value, why then are they assigning the Cerebus #1 a 9.2 value of only $2100? If they are utilizing their team of advisors to appraise the value of a copy just below NM, and these dealers have conducted transactions that would lead them to believe the monetary value of a 9.2 copy is only $2100, how then could we conclude beyond any shadow of a doubt that its the more valuable book when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k in transparent, online transactions?

 

 

To which I respond: "well, then, why are they only valuing the Hulk #181 at $2000, using that same team of advisors and criteria?"

 

It's because you're making an apples to oranges comparison. I don't know why OPG assigns the values it does, and neither do you. Only OPG knows. The values it assigns are frequently not in line with reality. The actual price OPG assigns is not meant to be taken literally (and, as has been stated before, is NOT FOR SLABBED BOOKS.) It is an unspoken range, and always has been.

 

Trying to take those numbers literally, and then comparing them with sales of slabbed copies, is a mistake.

 

You cannot directly compare "Price in OPG" and "prices for slabbed copies sold online."

 

And do you see the hyperbole you just used?

 

"when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k"

 

Multiple Hulk 181s? Are clearing $3k?

 

There has been a single sale of a 9.2 at $3200 which just happened four days ago.

 

Prior to that, the record was $2510. The 90 day average (which includes the $3200 price) is $2480. The 12 month average is $2286.

 

Where are the multiple copies clearing $3k...?

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

RMA (with whom I usually disagree)

 

 

That's not quite correct.

 

The correct statement would be "with whom I am usually contrary for the sake of being contrary."

 

 

:

[Jaydogrules]

Without going into it, you're just flat wrong. Every comic dealer would - if offered the same two books - purchase the Cerebus 1 in 9.4 every single time. In lower grades - like everyone is saying - the Hulk wins.

 

This.

 

I just filled in the details.

 

 

I've already stated my position, RMA. Jaydog himself conceded that the Cerebus #1 is the book to own in 9.4. Here's the one issue that troubles me:

 

If OPG doesn't rely solely on GPA, and they use arms length transactions along with other data points when determining a books value, why then are they assigning the Cerebus #1 a 9.2 value of only $2100? If they are utilizing their team of advisors to appraise the value of a copy just below NM, and these dealers have conducted transactions that would lead them to believe the monetary value of a 9.2 copy is only $2100, how then could we conclude beyond any shadow of a doubt that its the more valuable book when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k in transparent, online transactions?

 

 

To which I respond: "well, then, why are they only valuing the Hulk #181 at $2000, using that same team of advisors and criteria?"

 

It's because you're making an apples to oranges comparison. I don't know why OPG assigns the values it does, and neither do you. Only OPG knows. The values it assigns are frequently not in line with reality. The actual price OPG assigns is not meant to be taken literally (and, as has been stated before, is NOT FOR SLABBED BOOKS.) It is an unspoken range, and always has been.

 

Trying to take those numbers literally, and then comparing them with sales of slabbed copies, is a mistake.

 

You cannot directly compare "Price in OPG" and "prices for slabbed copies sold online."

 

And do you see the hyperbole you just used?

 

"when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k"

 

Multiple Hulk 181s? Are clearing $3k?

 

There has been a single sale of a 9.2 at $3200 which just happened four days ago.

 

Prior to that, the record was $2510. The 90 day average (which includes the $3200 price) is $2480. The 12 month average is $2286.

 

Where are the multiple copies clearing $3k...?

 

 

 

Where are the "multiple copies" of cerebus 1 (other than the single highest grade that sold six months ago) clearing even $1000 in the last 90 days? 12 months? Oh, right....

 

-J.

[AlexanderM]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

 

Jay... that is bad form....

 

using facts.....

Edited August 22, 2014 by AlexanderM

[RockMyAmadeus]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

 

Yes, by all means, let's please use the record price (a whopping 30% over the previous record, itself only established 2 weeks prior) to demonstrate what is typical.

 

 

And nevermind the well established fact that the rarer the book, the more exponential the price leaps at each step up.

 

Facts? We don't need no stinking facts.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

 

Jay... that is bad form....

 

using facts.....

 

 

Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical...

 

That's a fact, alright.

[Jaydogrules]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

 

Yes, by all means, let's please use the record price (a whopping 30% over the previous record, itself only established 2 weeks prior) to demonstrate what is typical.

 

 

And nevermind the well established fact that the rarer the book, the more exponential the price leaps at each step up.

 

Facts? We don't need no stinking facts.

 

 

Okay I get it now...so we can use ONE sale of a cerebus 1 to determine a "trend", but hulk 181? Don't be ridiculous.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Without going into it, you're just flat wrong. Every comic dealer would - if offered the same two books - purchase the Cerebus 1 in 9.4 every single time. In lower grades - like everyone is saying - the Hulk wins.

 

This.

 

I just filled in the details.

 

 

I've already stated my position, RMA. Jaydog himself conceded that the Cerebus #1 is the book to own in 9.4. Here's the one issue that troubles me:

 

If OPG doesn't rely solely on GPA, and they use arms length transactions along with other data points when determining a books value, why then are they assigning the Cerebus #1 a 9.2 value of only $2100? If they are utilizing their team of advisors to appraise the value of a copy just below NM, and these dealers have conducted transactions that would lead them to believe the monetary value of a 9.2 copy is only $2100, how then could we conclude beyond any shadow of a doubt that its the more valuable book when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k in transparent, online transactions?

 

 

To which I respond: "well, then, why are they only valuing the Hulk #181 at $2000, using that same team of advisors and criteria?"

 

It's because you're making an apples to oranges comparison. I don't know why OPG assigns the values it does, and neither do you. Only OPG knows. The values it assigns are frequently not in line with reality. The actual price OPG assigns is not meant to be taken literally (and, as has been stated before, is NOT FOR SLABBED BOOKS.) It is an unspoken range, and always has been.

 

Trying to take those numbers literally, and then comparing them with sales of slabbed copies, is a mistake.

 

You cannot directly compare "Price in OPG" and "prices for slabbed copies sold online."

 

And do you see the hyperbole you just used?

 

"when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k"

 

Multiple Hulk 181s? Are clearing $3k?

 

There has been a single sale of a 9.2 at $3200 which just happened four days ago.

 

Prior to that, the record was $2510. The 90 day average (which includes the $3200 price) is $2480. The 12 month average is $2286.

 

Where are the multiple copies clearing $3k...?

 

 

 

Where are the "multiple copies" of cerebus 1 (other than the single highest grade) clearing even $1000 in the last 90 days? 12 months? Oh, right....

 

-J.

 

How is this relevant, in any way, to the point I was making?

 

You may as well have said "Strawberry Shortcake #6 is a sexy comic", and it would have been as relevant.

 

Why do you do this...?

[Jaydogrules]

Without going into it, you're just flat wrong. Every comic dealer would - if offered the same two books - purchase the Cerebus 1 in 9.4 every single time. In lower grades - like everyone is saying - the Hulk wins.

 

This.

 

I just filled in the details.

 

 

I've already stated my position, RMA. Jaydog himself conceded that the Cerebus #1 is the book to own in 9.4. Here's the one issue that troubles me:

 

If OPG doesn't rely solely on GPA, and they use arms length transactions along with other data points when determining a books value, why then are they assigning the Cerebus #1 a 9.2 value of only $2100? If they are utilizing their team of advisors to appraise the value of a copy just below NM, and these dealers have conducted transactions that would lead them to believe the monetary value of a 9.2 copy is only $2100, how then could we conclude beyond any shadow of a doubt that its the more valuable book when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k in transparent, online transactions?

 

 

To which I respond: "well, then, why are they only valuing the Hulk #181 at $2000, using that same team of advisors and criteria?"

 

It's because you're making an apples to oranges comparison. I don't know why OPG assigns the values it does, and neither do you. Only OPG knows. The values it assigns are frequently not in line with reality. The actual price OPG assigns is not meant to be taken literally (and, as has been stated before, is NOT FOR SLABBED BOOKS.) It is an unspoken range, and always has been.

 

Trying to take those numbers literally, and then comparing them with sales of slabbed copies, is a mistake.

 

You cannot directly compare "Price in OPG" and "prices for slabbed copies sold online."

 

And do you see the hyperbole you just used?

 

"when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k"

 

Multiple Hulk 181s? Are clearing $3k?

 

There has been a single sale of a 9.2 at $3200 which just happened four days ago.

 

Prior to that, the record was $2510. The 90 day average (which includes the $3200 price) is $2480. The 12 month average is $2286.

 

Where are the multiple copies clearing $3k...?

 

 

 

Where are the "multiple copies" of cerebus 1 (other than the single highest grade) clearing even $1000 in the last 90 days? 12 months? Oh, right....

 

-J.

 

How is this relevant, in any way, to the point I was making?

 

You may as well have said "Strawberry Shortcake #6 is a sexy comic", and it would have been as relevant.

 

Why do you do this...?

 

You asking why or saying something is "not relevant" is a convenient way of dodging the point and ignoring the implied relevance.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

 

Yes, by all means, let's please use the record price (a whopping 30% over the previous record, itself only established 2 weeks prior) to demonstrate what is typical.

 

 

And nevermind the well established fact that the rarer the book, the more exponential the price leaps at each step up.

 

Facts? We don't need no stinking facts.

 

 

Okay I get it now...so we can use ONE sale of a cerebus 1 to determine a "trend", but hulk 181? Don't be ridiculous.

 

-J.

 

No, which is a point you have been missing since the beginning.

 

You CANNOT use one sale of a Cerebus #1 to determine a trend. And no one has, except in your mind.

 

What you CAN do, however, is use it to extrapolate what is POSSIBLE, based on other information. And extrapolating, comparing like with like, Cerebus #1 in 9.2 is going to be worth more than Hulk #181 9.2 at this time.

 

With the Hulk #181, no extrapolation is necessary. You have more than enough information to paint a clear picture of its value in 9.2.

 

You also CANNOT use the most extreme price that a 9.2 Hulk #181 has sold for, 30% higher than it has EVER sold for, as an "example." Extremes are not typical.

 

You know that...right? I mean, right...?

[AlexanderM]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

 

Jay... that is bad form....

 

using facts.....

 

 

Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical...

 

That's a fact, alright.

 

That is not what you are doing with Cerebus? Using one or a few sales to claim the value?

[Jaydogrules]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

 

Jay... that is bad form....

 

using facts.....

 

 

Yes, using a record smashing example to demonstrate what is typical...

 

That's a fact, alright.

 

That is not what you are doing with Cerebus? Using one or a few sales to claim the value?

 

Bingo.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Without going into it, you're just flat wrong. Every comic dealer would - if offered the same two books - purchase the Cerebus 1 in 9.4 every single time. In lower grades - like everyone is saying - the Hulk wins.

 

This.

 

I just filled in the details.

 

 

I've already stated my position, RMA. Jaydog himself conceded that the Cerebus #1 is the book to own in 9.4. Here's the one issue that troubles me:

 

If OPG doesn't rely solely on GPA, and they use arms length transactions along with other data points when determining a books value, why then are they assigning the Cerebus #1 a 9.2 value of only $2100? If they are utilizing their team of advisors to appraise the value of a copy just below NM, and these dealers have conducted transactions that would lead them to believe the monetary value of a 9.2 copy is only $2100, how then could we conclude beyond any shadow of a doubt that its the more valuable book when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k in transparent, online transactions?

 

 

To which I respond: "well, then, why are they only valuing the Hulk #181 at $2000, using that same team of advisors and criteria?"

 

It's because you're making an apples to oranges comparison. I don't know why OPG assigns the values it does, and neither do you. Only OPG knows. The values it assigns are frequently not in line with reality. The actual price OPG assigns is not meant to be taken literally (and, as has been stated before, is NOT FOR SLABBED BOOKS.) It is an unspoken range, and always has been.

 

Trying to take those numbers literally, and then comparing them with sales of slabbed copies, is a mistake.

 

You cannot directly compare "Price in OPG" and "prices for slabbed copies sold online."

 

And do you see the hyperbole you just used?

 

"when Hulk 181's in similar grade are clearing $3k"

 

Multiple Hulk 181s? Are clearing $3k?

 

There has been a single sale of a 9.2 at $3200 which just happened four days ago.

 

Prior to that, the record was $2510. The 90 day average (which includes the $3200 price) is $2480. The 12 month average is $2286.

 

Where are the multiple copies clearing $3k...?

 

 

 

Where are the "multiple copies" of cerebus 1 (other than the single highest grade) clearing even $1000 in the last 90 days? 12 months? Oh, right....

 

-J.

 

How is this relevant, in any way, to the point I was making?

 

You may as well have said "Strawberry Shortcake #6 is a sexy comic", and it would have been as relevant.

 

Why do you do this...?

 

You asking why or saying something is "not relevant" is a convenient way of dodging the point and ignoring the implied relevance.

 

-J.

 

 

Right.

 

I didn't realize we'd taken a turn into the Twilight Zone.:

 

[Lazyboy]

1) Prior to ebay, GPA, the internet, and cell phones, Overstreet relied on reports from dealers and LCS for its data. Guess what dude, it's 2014 now. He MAY still get SOME info that way still, but the vast majority of data is readily available to the public, and easily verifiable by anyone in this day and age.

 

2) The most recent sale of a Hulk 181 beats anything a Cerebus 1 has ever sold for in a 9.2. Don't have any public sales in a 9.2 for a Cerebus 1 in nearly 10 years? That's not Hulk 181's problem. Anything you "think" a 9.2 would go for now is just speculation. But estimates have been 2500-2800, based on the recent, verifiable sale of an 8.5 (fourth highest graded) which could barely eek out a meager $850.

 

 

1) Really? Would you care to show me sales data from every small local comic show, every major convention, every dealer website, etc. for the last year? Certainly more sales data is publicly available now than in 1980, but give me a break.

 

2) The most recent sale of Hulk 181 9.2 is also more than any Hulk 181 has sold for (at least recently, I don't know if any sold for more ten years ago or whatever). A single sale of a common book that sells regularly is nearly meaningless.

[Jaydogrules]

But under no circumstances could any unbiased, reasonable person say that Cerebus 1 is more "valuable" than Hulk 181.

 

Again, you're just wrong here.

 

It is proven, demonstrably more valuable grade-for-grade than IH 181 in 9.2, 9.4 and whatever other mythical 9.6 copies may exist.

 

The market data say so; at least three reputable comic dealers in this thread say so; RMA (with whom I usually disagree) has delineated the myriad reasons why it is so (namely, the factual sales); and Overstreet's says so.

 

You may want to check your facts on that...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4

 

No cerebus 1, 9.2 has ever come in spitting distance of this.

 

And this sale strongly suggests that it wouldn't, if one were to come up for sale:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3

 

We don't need rumour and word of mouth from dealers and rampant speculation, when we have publicly available sales to cull at our fingertips. Hence the point of my prior post.

 

-J.

 

Yes, by all means, let's please use the record price (a whopping 30% over the previous record, itself only established 2 weeks prior) to demonstrate what is typical.

 

 

And nevermind the well established fact that the rarer the book, the more exponential the price leaps at each step up.

 

Facts? We don't need no stinking facts.

 

 

Okay I get it now...so we can use ONE sale of a cerebus 1 to determine a "trend", but hulk 181? Don't be ridiculous.

 

-J.

 

No, which is a point you have been missing since the beginning.

 

You CANNOT use one sale of a Cerebus #1 to determine a trend. And no one has, except in your mind.

 

What you CAN do, however, is use it to extrapolate what is POSSIBLE, based on other information. And extrapolating, comparing like with like, Cerebus #1 in 9.2 is going to be worth more than Hulk #181 9.2 at this time.

 

With the Hulk #181, no extrapolation is necessary. You have more than enough information to paint a clear picture of its value in 9.2.

 

You also CANNOT use the most extreme price that a 9.2 Hulk #181 has sold for, 30% higher than it has EVER sold for, as an "example." Extremes are not typical.

 

You know that...right? I mean, right...?

 

Oh okay. Riiiiiight I see what you're doing now. So you're COUNTING on some additional hulk 181 sales in a 9.2 to dilute the impact of this "record shattering" sale. Is that it?

 

While we sit around and ASSUME that the next time a Cerebus 1 9.2 came up it maybe, just might sell for this or that. Even though a very nice presenting high grade Cerebus 1 8.5 just flopped on ebay with its $850 sale. Am I getting it now , RMA? Please school me, lest I be accused of "trolling" by you again.

 

-J.