Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87 3 3

[porcupine48]

Remember Shamus?That was the first computer game I played and loved.

Edited August 24, 2014 by porcupine48

[Jaydogrules]

Chuck

 

If you have other publicly available sales data that show a cerebus 1 not sliding 15% in value in the past 10 years, please post it for us here.

 

-J.

 

That's a decent point, jaydog.

 

Decent points aren't patently false.

 

Decent points are, at the very least, true. You have to start with a TRUE statement, before it can even approach being "decent."

 

Produce the publicly available data that proves it's "false". You simply saying it is does not make it so. Your attempts to be condescending by saying no one "understands" the publicly available GPA data but you are a little sad.

 

So either produce the data that disputes cerebus 1's massive decline over the last ten years or admit you are wrong. Well I don't expect you to do either, so never mind.

 

Good day to you sir.

 

-J.

[HighStakesComics]

Remember Shamus?That was the first computer game I played and loved.

 

I vaguely remember it being pretty good.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Chuck

 

If you have other publicly available sales data that show a cerebus 1 not sliding 15% in value in the past 10 years, please post it for us here.

 

-J.

 

That's a decent point, jaydog.

 

Decent points aren't patently false.

 

Decent points are, at the very least, true. You have to start with a TRUE statement, before it can even approach being "decent."

 

Produce the publicly available data that proves it's "false". You simply saying it is does not make it so. Your attempts to be condescending by saying no one "understands" the publicly available GPA data but you are a little sad.

 

So either produce the data that disputes cerebus 1's massive decline over the last ten years or admit you are wrong. Well I don't expect you to do either, so never mind.

 

Good day to you sir.

 

-J.

 

I already did. It's in plain black and white, for all to see. It's already posted. In fact, you yourself posted it.

 

I didn't say "no one "understands" the data." I said YOU don't understand the data. Stop inventing things, and then claiming other people said them, while at the same time shooting them down. That's called a "straw-man argument."

 

"massive decline"

 

 

Jaydog, you are clearly trolling at this point. If you don't want to be called on it, stop doing it.

[Jaydogrules]

Chuck

 

If you have other publicly available sales data that show a cerebus 1 not sliding 15% in value in the past 10 years, please post it for us here.

 

-J.

 

That's a decent point, jaydog.

 

Decent points aren't patently false.

 

Decent points are, at the very least, true. You have to start with a TRUE statement, before it can even approach being "decent."

 

Produce the publicly available data that proves it's "false". You simply saying it is does not make it so. Your attempts to be condescending by saying no one "understands" the publicly available GPA data but you are a little sad.

 

So either produce the data that disputes cerebus 1's massive decline over the last ten years or admit you are wrong. Well I don't expect you to do either, so never mind.

 

Are you again referring to the GP

Good day to you sir.

 

-J.

 

I already did. It's in plain black and white, for all to see. It's already posted. In fact, you yourself posted it.

 

I didn't say "no one "understands" the data." I said YOU don't understand the data. Stop inventing things, and then claiming other people said them, while at the same time shooting them down. That's called a "straw-man argument."

 

"massive decline"

 

 

Jaydog, you are clearly trolling at this point. If you don't want to be called on it, stop doing it.

 

Are you again referring to the GPA data that shows the very decline you are claiming doesn't exist ?

 

Okay, great.

 

Happy collecting.

 

-J.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Chuck

 

If you have other publicly available sales data that show a cerebus 1 not sliding 15% in value in the past 10 years, please post it for us here.

 

-J.

 

That's a decent point, jaydog.

 

Decent points aren't patently false.

 

Decent points are, at the very least, true. You have to start with a TRUE statement, before it can even approach being "decent."

 

Produce the publicly available data that proves it's "false". You simply saying it is does not make it so. Your attempts to be condescending by saying no one "understands" the publicly available GPA data but you are a little sad.

 

So either produce the data that disputes cerebus 1's massive decline over the last ten years or admit you are wrong. Well I don't expect you to do either, so never mind.

 

Are you again referring to the GP

Good day to you sir.

 

-J.

 

I already did. It's in plain black and white, for all to see. It's already posted. In fact, you yourself posted it.

 

I didn't say "no one "understands" the data." I said YOU don't understand the data. Stop inventing things, and then claiming other people said them, while at the same time shooting them down. That's called a "straw-man argument."

 

"massive decline"

 

 

Jaydog, you are clearly trolling at this point. If you don't want to be called on it, stop doing it.

 

Are you again referring to the GPA data that shows the very decline you are claiming doesn't exist ?

 

Okay, great.

 

Happy collecting.

 

-J.

 

 

Are you done making up arguments, and attributing them to other people? Are you done arguing things that no one is arguing? Are you done changing the parameters of the discussion because the actual application doesn't sit well with you?

 

If you are, we can continue.

 

If not, we should probably part ways here.

 

Thanks for the engaging discussion either way. I mean that sincerely.

[Jaydogrules]

Thank you as well. I do feel as though we've covered all the bases at this point though. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[porcupine48]

Man,there has been enough rehash to stone a block of frat houses....

[Petey's Wheatcake]

I really wish that I had been online this morning. Probably would have needed to start a new thread reminiscing about my many hours spent playing the original Castle Wolfenstein, and Beyond Castle Wolfenstein(where you actually blew up Hitler Inglorious Basterds style) on my Apple II+.

 

There's a fair chance I would have doubled my post count in a day on that one.

 

 

[1950's war comics]

marked to read full thread later

[AlexanderM]

THE BOTTOM LINE

 

So the bottom line of this thread is (for anyone not bothered to read the whole thing).

 

Broad agreement that :

 

1. IH181 is a vastly more important book than Cerebus. They are really leagues apart.

 

2. IH181 is, despite being available in much larger numbers, more valuable than Cerebus at most grades.

 

Still no agreement on these issues:

 

1. Whether Cerebus is higher priced in only 1 or a few grades in the 9s?

 

2. Which book could be said to generally be the highest priced (most valuable) book.

 

3. Whether Cerebus prices are in decline.

Edited August 24, 2014 by AlexanderM

[Petey's Wheatcake]

Perhaps I'm not alone when shaking my head upon seeing the latest Overstreet Price Guide's list for the top 10 BA books? This year's list has its newest surprise. Cerebus 1 comes in ahead of Hulk 181. For that matter, it's more valuable than the top 3 Marvel BA keys that aren't variants. By the way Bob, don't you think it's time to seperate the price variants from mainstream books when comparing values?

 

Back to Cerebus 1 and Hulk 181. We can discuss the fact that Cerebus 1 had a print run of 2000 and that it's a tougher book to find in higher grades than Hulk 181. But how many collectors out there are having sleepless nights because they don't have the Aardvark's first appearance in their collections?

 

Interesting thing about how the BA market for keys differs from the SA's. The SA Marvel keys are more plentiful than their DC counterparts. Sure the demand for the SA Marvel keys justifies the higher prices paid for them when compared to DC's. But why does the opposite effect continue to hold true, at least to Overstreet, for BA Marvel keys? How much demand is out there for Cerebus 1? While the Aardvark's first appearance has its place in the history of the BA, does that really justify its being more valuable than Hulk 181 since a handful of people are willing to pay more for it? The demand of a handful of people automatically defines the make up of the top 10 BA books?

 

Rarity is such an important factor for the Bronze keys because all the major first appearances have always been so plentiful. I do think blazincomics made an interesting point the other day though when he predicted that some of the popular books were destined to surpass the books that have traditionally been in the top 10.

 

In my early Atari 2600 years, Marvel Comics #1 was worth more than Detective Comics #27, and FF #1 was more valuable than AF #15. A decade from now, my crystal ball tells me that the BA top 10 will be a better reflection of what the fanboys are wearing on their pajamas than it is now. First appearances of popular characters, specifically, will begin to supplant harder to find books with more of a niche interest.

[Prince Namor]

No Bronze book is going to surpass AF15.

[Petey's Wheatcake]

I should mention that I don't think this will apply to the variants though, because they are the perfect way to satisfy the demands of different types of collectors. You can collect books that are more difficult to obtain, but also feature Marvel's most popular characters in many cases.

 

The best of both collecting worlds.

[bababooey]

I'd change that summary to:

 

- IH 181 has a larger fan base, greater supply & broader demand.

 

- Based on limited results, Cerebus' top two grades available are likely to sell for more than IH 181 in 9.2/9.4.

 

- A downward price trend of "15% for Cerebus 1 over ten year period" was presented by one party with figures - in direct response to a question from the other party; the second party disputed that assessment as wrong but no data was presented nor was any explanation of how the data should be interpreted to rationalize a conclusion that contradicts the simple mathematics used by the first party.

 

[Petey's Wheatcake]

No Bronze book is going to surpass AF15.

 

Did I somehow imply that? I better edit my post if I did because, if so, that would be the stupidest thing I've ever written(and you'll be shocked to read this, but I've written some really stupid things in my time).

 

I was talking about the BA specifically. Historically significant books lacking important appearances of popular characters will be trumped by key first appearances.

 

I only mentioned the GA and SA books in reference to the original observation concerning the differences between the top books in the various ages. There was a time when AF #15 was not the king of the SA, but that changed when the character's popularity overwhelmed any other considerations.

 

One quick caveat. I would take a VG 35 cent Scooby Doo #1 over a VG AF #15 any day. Spider-Man is far and away my favorite character, but I've had plenty of low grade AF #15s. My opportunities to get the Scooby are limited. So in certain grades, there are a few bronze books that I would prefer to own.

 

 

[oakman29]

I would rather have a Cerebus #1 than an IH #181,of course I have two 181's so......

[Prince Namor]

THE BOTTOM LINE

 

So the bottom line of this thread is (for anyone not bothered to read the whole thing).

 

Broad agreement that :

 

1. IH181 is a vastly more important book than Cerebus. They are really leagues apart.

 

2. IH181 is, despite being available in much larger numbers, more valuable than Cerebus at most grades.

 

Three people, none of who sell any of these books for a living (or apparently understand GPA or statistic analysis) think this and you think that means everyone's in agreement?

 

Still no agreement on these issues:

 

1. Whether Cerebus is higher priced in only 1 or a few grades in the 9s?

 

2. Which book could be said to generally be the highest priced (most valuable) book.

 

3. Whether Cerebus prices are in decline.

 

again, if you don't understand statistical analysis, you might make this assumption and even say something as blatantly incorrect as 'massively in decline'. BUT: why then would any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered only one or the other - for $500?

 

Because, thus far, they've seen, they will make MORE MONEY off the book -MEANING that in HIGH GRADE it is more VALUABLE to them.

 

Hence, it's more VALUABLE in HG as reflected in the OSPG, a guide for people who SELL comics.

 

Why is this so hard to understand. We even had a well respected national dealer come in this thread and tell us it's TRUE. How much more proof do you need?

[Prince Namor]

I'd change that summary to:

 

- IH 181 has a larger fan base, greater supply & broader demand.

 

- Based on limited results, Cerebus' top two grades available are likely to sell for more than IH 181 in 9.2/9.4.

 

- A downward price trend of "15% for Cerebus 1 over ten year period" was presented by one party with figures - in direct response to a question from the other party; the second party disputed that assessment as wrong but no data was presented nor was any explanation of how the data should be interpreted to rationalize a conclusion that contradicts the simple mathematics used by the first party.

 

 

Sample size is too small.

 

If you get one hit in your first three at bats in the big league's you're hitting .333

No guarantee you'll hit that for the rest of your career OR that you'll hit LESS than that for the rest of your career.

The Sample Size is too small to make a judgement based solely upon the numbers.

 

So taking that to the GPA numbers for Cerebus, we have to defer to an expert for some judgement - someone who sells comics for a living - a national dealer perhaps? And of the ones I've conferred with and asked over the years: Any of them, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered only one or the other - for $500.

 

THEY feel, the book has strong demand and potential to still pull in big bucks. It may NEVER have a large sample size - to some that's as good as it gets - everyone that they get there hands on will pull in big money.

 

It's how it works.

[Prince Namor]

I would rather have a Cerebus #1 than an IH #181,of course I have two 181's so......

 

And as a collector of all things key and awesome in comics, you see exactly how it works.

 

A collector rarely quits collecting. He reaches his goals and looks for other keys.

 

Cerebus in HG is a tough book? Hmm.. I need one of those...