1st Teen Titans 3 3

[sfcityduck]

I also have a FN 54 I bought as part of a collection. When it is listed it will be properly referenced as the Teen Titans origin/prototype.

 

Hmmm. Interestingly, "blazincomics" on ebay calls a coverless copy of BB 54 "origin of Teen Titans," consistent with it being the first appearance of the TT in line with DC and CGC's position, but chooses not to devalue the comic by claiming it is not a TT comic or by calling it a prototype.

 

54 is the origin and 60 is the 1st appearance, just as I have called it all along. Kinda like FF 66 & 67 except with teams. You only see the cocoon in BB 54, you don't witness the team as they have been known for 50 years with their original lineup until Brave and the Bold 60.

 

If I didn't have a leg to stand on there is a good chance more than half of the scholarly readers here in this thread wouldn't agree with me, Duck. Do I own multiples of 60? Absolutely. Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not. If you disagree you can instantly discredit me by posting the panel in Brave and the Bold 54 which introduces the world to the Teen Titans. The only problem is there isn't one. It's a myth. 54 is a team up and origin. It lays the foundation for what appears for the first time 6 issues later. It's only a matter of time until the gospel has spread and the collecting community views this as it truly is. In the meantime, I'd suggest trying on a pair of big boy pants and learning how not to dish out what you apparently cannot take.

 

Those in glass houses ....

 

You are swimming upstream. When DC decided to celebrate the Teen Titans with "A Celebration of 50 Years" they started the book with, and pegged the 50 year anniversary to, the very first Teen Titans story: Brave and the Bold #54. This wasn't the first time that DC has identified BB54 as the first TT story.

 

What amazes me is that you think that the "origin" of a team can predate its first appearance. I'd agree the "origin" of a team can predate its name. But its first appearance? Impossible. For example, TTA 27 is the first appearance and origin of Ant-Man, even though Henry Pym is not called Ant-Man in TTA 27. Strange Adventures 180 is the first appearance of Animal Man even though Buddy Baker didn't call himself that until Strange Adventures 190.

 

You can tell your customers that BB60 is the first TT, but that representation is contrary to the position taken by DC, Overstreet, CGC, and almost every dealer listing a BB54 for sale. In short, I believe that such a listing is a misrepresentation. Fortunately, I've never seen any dealer other than you make such a misrepresentation.

 

 

[HighStakesComics]

Still waiting on that panel.

 

 

[sfcityduck]

I also have a FN 54 I bought as part of a collection. When it is listed it will be properly referenced as the Teen Titans origin/prototype.

 

Hmmm. Interestingly, "blazincomics" on ebay calls a coverless copy of BB 54 "origin of Teen Titans," consistent with it being the first appearance of the TT in line with DC and CGC's position, but chooses not to devalue the comic by claiming it is not a TT comic or by calling it a prototype.

 

If you disagree you can instantly discredit me by posting the panel in Brave and the Bold 54 which introduces the world to the Teen Titans.

 

This is a ridiculous and pedantic position. The entire issue of BB54 introduces the world to the new team of Robin, Kid Flash and Speedy (the editors having asked for a "Junior Justice League"), even you admit that when you agree that BB54 is the "origin of the Teen Titans." The last panel of BB54 refers to this "new team." BUT, we all recognize that BB54 doesn't have a blurb saying "Introducing the Teen Titans" for the obvious reason that the name "Teen Titans" hadn't been selected yet. [Of course, BB60 doesn't say "Introducing the Teen Titans" either, because it obviously wasn't the introduction of the team that had appeared six issues earlier.] Just like Animal Man and Ant-Man first appeared without names (or the Fantastic Four without costumes, etc. etc. etc.).

 

Personally, I think you've been thoroughly discredited by DC, CGC, Overstreet, and all of the many dealers who disagree with you by listing BB54 as the first appearance of the Teen Titans. Further, I think your own eBay listing of BB54 discredits you because you list it as the "origin of the Teen Titans" without ever calling it a "prototype" or "not the first appearance of Teen Titans" or any other descriptor that would devalue the issue.

[HighStakesComics]

C'Mon, Man! No one in their right mind could read through 54 only, finish the story, and proclaim that is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. It's just another team up, consistent with others that occur within the same time frame in the title, until BB 60, which introduces the team that was created after the team up in 54. At least that's how Robin tells it to Batman in BB 60.

Still waiting on one, measley panel from 54

 

[nearmint]

C'Mon, Man! No one in their right mind could read through 54 only, finish the story, and proclaim that is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. It's just another team up, consistent with others that occur within the same time frame in the title, until BB 60, which introduces the team that was created after the team up in 54. At least that's how Robin tells it to Batman in BB 60.

Still waiting on one, measley panel from 54

 

While you're at it, you better convince everyone that Superman #1 isn't really Superman #1, as it was initially released as a one-shot, and only became a series after it's phenomenal success.

 

What was intended at the time of release isn't relevant. The result is what matters.

[HighStakesComics]

C'Mon, Man! No one in their right mind could read through 54 only, finish the story, and proclaim that is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. It's just another team up, consistent with others that occur within the same time frame in the title, until BB 60, which introduces the team that was created after the team up in 54. At least that's how Robin tells it to Batman in BB 60.

Still waiting on one, measley panel from 54

 

While you're at it, you better convince everyone that Superman #1 isn't really Superman #1, as it was initially released as a one-shot, and only became a series after it's phenomenal success.

 

What was intended at the time of release isn't relevant. The result is what matters.

 

Yeah, but that's an apples to oranges comparison. Superman is Superman. There is nothing subjective about it. You are arguing that a book is a first appearance which A.) Doesn't mention the team appearing by name and B.) Doesn't include the entire original roster. If BB 54 referred to the Teen Titans and introduced the world to Wonder Girl my argument would have no merit. As it stands, I think my argument holds up pretty well

[sfcityduck]

No one in their right mind could read through 54 only, finish the story, and proclaim that is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. It's just another team up, consistent with others that occur within the same time frame in the title, until BB 60, which introduces the team that was created after the team up in 54. At least that's how Robin tells it to Batman in BB 60.

 

Context matters. You have to read both BB54 and BB60 in context. BB54 introduces an unnamed team of Robin, Kid Flash and Speedy (which we know was originally conceived as a "Junior Justice League"). BB60 names that team and adds a member. The fact that BB60 refers back to BB54 tells you all you need to know about the context of the issues.

 

Under your "reasoning" the first Avengers adventure did not occur until Avengers 2. Because, it is not until the last panel or so of Avengers 1 that the superhero team of Iron Man, Thor, Ant-Man, Wasp, and Hulk decide to call themselves the "Avengers." But, no one is going to buy that Avengers 1 is like Hulk 180, only a last page first appearance of the Avengers with the first "full appearance" coming in Avengers 2.

 

Like I said, you are swimming up stream.

 

I'd give this a rest until you see DC, Overstreet, CGC, and dealers start listing BB54 as a non-Teen Titans book. Not going to happen. Nothing more need to be said.

Edited August 18, 2015 by sfcityduck

[nearmint]

C'Mon, Man! No one in their right mind could read through 54 only, finish the story, and proclaim that is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. It's just another team up, consistent with others that occur within the same time frame in the title, until BB 60, which introduces the team that was created after the team up in 54. At least that's how Robin tells it to Batman in BB 60.

Still waiting on one, measley panel from 54

 

While you're at it, you better convince everyone that Superman #1 isn't really Superman #1, as it was initially released as a one-shot, and only became a series after it's phenomenal success.

 

What was intended at the time of release isn't relevant. The result is what matters.

 

Yeah, but that's an apples to oranges comparison. Superman is Superman. There is nothing subjective about it. You are arguing that a book is a first appearance which A.) Doesn't mention the team appearing by name and B.) Doesn't include the entire original roster. If BB 54 referred to the Teen Titans and introduced the world to Wonder Girl my argument would have no merit. As it stands, I think my argument holds up pretty well

 

Not apples and oranges. You're claiming that you can't call BB54 the first Titans appearance simply because they don't call themselves the Titans in that issue. I'm saying you might as well claim that Superman #1 isn't #1 because it doesn't say #1 and wasn't intended to be a continuing series.

 

DC looked at the sucess of BB54 and decided to give the team a name and another issue, just as they looked at the success of the first issue of Superman and decided to publish another. Apples and apples.

[Aman619]

good point!

 

[HighStakesComics]

C'Mon, Man! No one in their right mind could read through 54 only, finish the story, and proclaim that is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. It's just another team up, consistent with others that occur within the same time frame in the title, until BB 60, which introduces the team that was created after the team up in 54. At least that's how Robin tells it to Batman in BB 60.

Still waiting on one, measley panel from 54

 

While you're at it, you better convince everyone that Superman #1 isn't really Superman #1, as it was initially released as a one-shot, and only became a series after it's phenomenal success.

 

What was intended at the time of release isn't relevant. The result is what matters.

 

Yeah, but that's an apples to oranges comparison. Superman is Superman. There is nothing subjective about it. You are arguing that a book is a first appearance which A.) Doesn't mention the team appearing by name and B.) Doesn't include the entire original roster. If BB 54 referred to the Teen Titans and introduced the world to Wonder Girl my argument would have no merit. As it stands, I think my argument holds up pretty well

 

 

 

Not apples and oranges. You're claiming that you can't call BB54 the first Titans appearance simply because they don't call themselves the Titans in that issue. I'm saying you might as well claim that Superman #1 isn't #1 because it doesn't say #1 and wasn't intended to be a continuing series.

 

DC looked at the sucess of BB54 and decided to give the team a name and another issue, just as they looked at the success of the first issue of Superman and decided to publish another. Apples and apples.

 

At this point aren't we just arguing that 54 is a prototype then? When it's this close I think we have to go with the book that establishes clarity and casts away the doubt. You cannot argue that prior to 60 the Teen Titans existed.

Also, I think it's safe to say that after Action Comics #1 anyone who read it had a good idea who Superman was. Apples to oranges. In fact, since the first 13 page story within Action #1 is titled "Superman", Id say you are even making a case for 60 being the first appearance since the example you used clearly identifies the hero chronicled within. ?

[nearmint]

C'Mon, Man! No one in their right mind could read through 54 only, finish the story, and proclaim that is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. It's just another team up, consistent with others that occur within the same time frame in the title, until BB 60, which introduces the team that was created after the team up in 54. At least that's how Robin tells it to Batman in BB 60.

Still waiting on one, measley panel from 54

 

While you're at it, you better convince everyone that Superman #1 isn't really Superman #1, as it was initially released as a one-shot, and only became a series after it's phenomenal success.

 

What was intended at the time of release isn't relevant. The result is what matters.

 

Yeah, but that's an apples to oranges comparison. Superman is Superman. There is nothing subjective about it. You are arguing that a book is a first appearance which A.) Doesn't mention the team appearing by name and B.) Doesn't include the entire original roster. If BB 54 referred to the Teen Titans and introduced the world to Wonder Girl my argument would have no merit. As it stands, I think my argument holds up pretty well

 

 

 

Not apples and oranges. You're claiming that you can't call BB54 the first Titans appearance simply because they don't call themselves the Titans in that issue. I'm saying you might as well claim that Superman #1 isn't #1 because it doesn't say #1 and wasn't intended to be a continuing series.

 

DC looked at the sucess of BB54 and decided to give the team a name and another issue, just as they looked at the success of the first issue of Superman and decided to publish another. Apples and apples.

 

At this point aren't we just arguing that 54 is a prototype then? When it's this close I think we have to go with the book that establishes clarity and casts away the doubt. You cannot argue that prior to 60 the Teen Titans existed.

Also, I think it's safe to say that after Action Comics #1 anyone who read it had a good idea who Superman was. Apples to oranges. In fact, since the first 13 page story within Action #1 is titled "Superman", Id say you are even making a case for 60 being the first appearance since the example you used clearly identifies the hero chronicled within. ?

 

Wow, you are all over the map. I think your faulty reasoning stems from the misguided notion that we need to freeze time after BB54 came out and look at it within the narrow context of that single issue.

 

We're looking at it in a broader context. A team formed and had an adventure, then 6 issues later another member joined the team and the name of the team was announced. That doesn't negate the fact that their first adventure occurred 6 issues earlier.

 

 

[HighStakesComics]

Nope. It's pretty clear here early on that something occurred after 54, which led to the teams formation in 60. Once again, this is referenced in the earliest panels addressing the topic, which I am happy to post and share. Seems pretty consistent and on point to me.

[Silver]

C'Mon, Man! No one in their right mind could read through 54 only, finish the story, and proclaim that is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. It's just another team up, consistent with others that occur within the same time frame in the title, until BB 60, which introduces the team that was created after the team up in 54. At least that's how Robin tells it to Batman in BB 60.

Still waiting on one, measley panel from 54

 

While you're at it, you better convince everyone that Superman #1 isn't really Superman #1, as it was initially released as a one-shot, and only became a series after it's phenomenal success.

 

What was intended at the time of release isn't relevant. The result is what matters.

 

Yeah, but that's an apples to oranges comparison. Superman is Superman. There is nothing subjective about it. You are arguing that a book is a first appearance which A.) Doesn't mention the team appearing by name and B.) Doesn't include the entire original roster. If BB 54 referred to the Teen Titans and introduced the world to Wonder Girl my argument would have no merit. As it stands, I think my argument holds up pretty well

 

 

 

Not apples and oranges. You're claiming that you can't call BB54 the first Titans appearance simply because they don't call themselves the Titans in that issue. I'm saying you might as well claim that Superman #1 isn't #1 because it doesn't say #1 and wasn't intended to be a continuing series.

 

DC looked at the sucess of BB54 and decided to give the team a name and another issue, just as they looked at the success of the first issue of Superman and decided to publish another. Apples and apples.

 

At this point aren't we just arguing that 54 is a prototype then? When it's this close I think we have to go with the book that establishes clarity and casts away the doubt. You cannot argue that prior to 60 the Teen Titans existed.

Also, I think it's safe to say that after Action Comics #1 anyone who read it had a good idea who Superman was. Apples to oranges. In fact, since the first 13 page story within Action #1 is titled "Superman", Id say you are even making a case for 60 being the first appearance since the example you used clearly identifies the hero chronicled within. ?

 

Wow, you are all over the map. I think your faulty reasoning stems from the misguided notion that we need to freeze time after BB54 came out and look at it within the narrow context of that single issue.

 

We're looking at it in a broader context. A team formed and had an adventure, then 6 issues later another member joined the team and the name of the team was announced. That doesn't negate the fact that their first adventure occurred 6 issues earlier.

 

 

Wow Jeff, I can't believe I find myself disagreeing with you.

 

You are basically discarding the concept of a tryout or prototype. I personally believe that BB54 is a tryout book. It was a big success, and from that success the Teen Titans were born. A little re-tooling, a name and there you go.

 

Now I have no (none, nade, nein, etc) intention of getting into this debate, because quite honestly is it dumb and it doesn't matter. The reality is that BOTH book are sufficiently important to Teen Titan lore. regardless of everything else, BB60 is not the second appearance of the Teen Titans. Some people don't want to recognize it as the first, fine....but it's not the second.

 

You need both books if you want the origin and first appearance of the Titans. You have both, so you're in good shape!

 

 

[nearmint]

C'Mon, Man! No one in their right mind could read through 54 only, finish the story, and proclaim that is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. It's just another team up, consistent with others that occur within the same time frame in the title, until BB 60, which introduces the team that was created after the team up in 54. At least that's how Robin tells it to Batman in BB 60.

Still waiting on one, measley panel from 54

 

While you're at it, you better convince everyone that Superman #1 isn't really Superman #1, as it was initially released as a one-shot, and only became a series after it's phenomenal success.

 

What was intended at the time of release isn't relevant. The result is what matters.

 

Yeah, but that's an apples to oranges comparison. Superman is Superman. There is nothing subjective about it. You are arguing that a book is a first appearance which A.) Doesn't mention the team appearing by name and B.) Doesn't include the entire original roster. If BB 54 referred to the Teen Titans and introduced the world to Wonder Girl my argument would have no merit. As it stands, I think my argument holds up pretty well

 

 

 

Not apples and oranges. You're claiming that you can't call BB54 the first Titans appearance simply because they don't call themselves the Titans in that issue. I'm saying you might as well claim that Superman #1 isn't #1 because it doesn't say #1 and wasn't intended to be a continuing series.

 

DC looked at the sucess of BB54 and decided to give the team a name and another issue, just as they looked at the success of the first issue of Superman and decided to publish another. Apples and apples.

 

At this point aren't we just arguing that 54 is a prototype then? When it's this close I think we have to go with the book that establishes clarity and casts away the doubt. You cannot argue that prior to 60 the Teen Titans existed.

Also, I think it's safe to say that after Action Comics #1 anyone who read it had a good idea who Superman was. Apples to oranges. In fact, since the first 13 page story within Action #1 is titled "Superman", Id say you are even making a case for 60 being the first appearance since the example you used clearly identifies the hero chronicled within. ?

 

Wow, you are all over the map. I think your faulty reasoning stems from the misguided notion that we need to freeze time after BB54 came out and look at it within the narrow context of that single issue.

 

We're looking at it in a broader context. A team formed and had an adventure, then 6 issues later another member joined the team and the name of the team was announced. That doesn't negate the fact that their first adventure occurred 6 issues earlier.

 

 

Wow Jeff, I can't believe I find myself disagreeing with you.

 

You are basically discarding the concept of a tryout or prototype. I personally believe that BB54 is a tryout book. It was a big success, and from that success the Teen Titans were born. A little re-tooling, a name and there you go.

 

Now I have no (none, nade, nein, etc) intention of getting into this debate, because quite honestly is it dumb and it doesn't matter. The reality is that BOTH book are sufficiently important to Teen Titan lore. regardless of everything else, BB60 is not the second appearance of the Teen Titans. Some people don't want to recognize it as the first, fine....but it's not the second.

 

You need both books if you want the origin and first appearance of the Titans. You have both, so you're in good shape!

 

 

How am I discarding the concept of a tryout book, and what does that have to do with whether it's also the first appearance? Most, if not all, tryout books are considered first appearances.

[Tri-Color Brian]

Edited August 19, 2015 by tricolorbrian

[RockMyAmadeus]

[HighStakesComics]

I think we've already gone down this road with Sub-Mariner #34 and The Defenders.

[TeddieMercede]

I think we've already gone down this road with Sub-Mariner #34 and The Defenders.

 

Just let it die man - Rehashing the same stuff for people who didn't read the thread is a waste of time. Even Sgt. Rock would want this to end at this point.

[sfcityduck]

Nope. It's pretty clear here early on that something occurred after 54, which led to the teams formation in 60. Once again, this is referenced in the earliest panels addressing the topic, which I am happy to post and share. Seems pretty consistent and on point to me.

 

For the record, the first group of panels you post is from a mid-70s retcon that DC has clearly stated is not accurate on multiple occasions, most recently in celebrating the 50th anniversay of the TT.

 

The second group of panels you post from BB60 confirm that the team was formed prior to BB60 and cites to BB54. That pretty much blows you out of the water. It clearly ties the formation of the TT to BB54. Your problem is that you are so fixated on boosting the value of BB60 that you are not content with BB60 being the first WG and first use of the name TT, you want to call it the first appearance of the TT. But, its not. The origin and first appearance of the team (not the name) is BB54. DC, CGC, Overstreet, dealers, etc. all recognize this. You are swimming upstream against a very hard current.

 

The whole notion of a "tryout" or "prototype" does not help you here at all.

 

A "prototype" is a marketing term used by dealers to overclaim the value of a book. E.g. when Dr. Occult puts on a cape, dealers claim it was a "Superman prototype," even though Superman pre-dated Dr. Occult and aside from the cape and artist the concepts have nothing in common. And don't get me started on all the fake Atlas-Marvel "prototypes." But, in any event, BB54 is in no way shape or form a "prototype."

 

A "tryout" is when a publisher tests the market with a one-shot or other finite appearance to see if a concept will fly. Showcase No. 4 was a "tryout." And guess what? It, as with all "tryouts," was a first appearance and origin. BB54 is a tryout. So is BB60 for that matter. And just like Showcase Nos. 4, 8, 13-14 led to Flash getting his own series, BB54, BB60 and Showcase 59 led to the TT getting their own series.

Edited August 19, 2015 by sfcityduck

[nearmint]

It is interesting how the Titans tryout jumped from BB to Showcase. I can't think of any other tryout that didn't remain within a single title.