1st Teen Titans 3 3

[Lazyboy]

No team exists at the beginning of BB54. There's no mention of the Teen Titans.

 

No team exists at the end of BB54. There's still no mention of the Teen Titans, nor any kind of formal organization.

[nearmint]

You guys require that it be proclaimed "we are a team" for it to be the first appearance.

 

I get it. I just don't agree with it.

[sfcityduck]

No team exists at the beginning of BB54. There's no mention of the Teen Titans.

 

No team exists at the end of BB54. There's still no mention of the Teen Titans, nor any kind of formal organization.

 

BB54 ends with DC proclaiming a new team. BB 60 starts with the TT having already been formed, and with a citation back to BB54. DC, as an official position, calls BB54 the first appearance of the TT. CGC and an overwhelming majority of dealers and collectors agree.

 

Your only argument is semantic: (1) that a team cannot be formed before it has a name and (2) a team's first adventure occurs only when it has been named. Neither semantic position is persuasive. For example, no one is going to accept that Animal Man's first appearance was not until he was named. No one is going to start touting Avengers no. 2 as the first adventure of the Avengers (relegating Avengers 1 to Hulk 180 level compared to Avengers 2 Hulk 181 level).

 

Your "tryout" argument is equally absurd. Every first tryout is a first appearance -- Showcase No. 4 being the best example.

 

And your "prototype" argument is equally unpersuasive. Dr. Occult (supposed "prototype" for Superman) didn't become Superman. I can think of no "prototypes" that became what they supposedly were the "prototype" for.

 

[JTLarsen]

You guys require that it be proclaimed "we are a team" for it to be the first appearance.

 

I get it. I just don't agree with it.

 

No, don't require them to proclaim it. Just to do it. They don't. They work together and part ways with no plans to work together again, let alone as a formally constituted group. They don't proclaim it because they haven't done anything to proclaim. It's not the lack of proclamation that's the problem, it's the fact they haven't done anything to proclaim. To put it in other terms, just because two people sleep together one time doesn't mean they're married--and it's not because they don't issue a wedding proclamation, it's because they don't get married.

[JTLarsen]

No team exists at the beginning of BB54. There's no mention of the Teen Titans.

 

No team exists at the end of BB54. There's still no mention of the Teen Titans, nor any kind of formal organization.

 

BB54 ends with DC proclaiming a new team.

 

Not true, as we've established.

 

BB 60 starts with the TT having already been formed, and with a citation back to BB54.

 

Which specifically says the Teen Titans formed AFTER the events of BB54. As we've also established.

 

DC, as an official position, calls BB54 the first appearance of the TT. CGC and an overwhelming majority of dealers and collectors agree.

 

All true. And all irrelevant to whether it's correct or not. Same could be said of Sgt. Rock not long ago. In fact, come to think of it, Sgt. Rock's first appearance was considered OAAW 81 for about as long as BB54 has been considered TT's first appearance, I think.

 

Your only argument is semantic: (1) that a team cannot be formed before it has a name and (2) a team's first adventure occurs only when it has been named. Neither semantic position is persuasive.

 

That's not surprising, considering you've been stunningly intellectually dishonest in representing the counter-argument. I certainly agree that a team can be formed before it has a name. Show me the panel where Kid Flash tells Speedy, "We should form a team!" "What should we call it?" "I dunno, we'll think of it later!" No? Nothing?

 

And no one has said a team's first adventure occurs only when it has been named. The reason I and others continue to maintain that no superhero team forms in BB54 is not semantic, it's that no superhero team forms in BB54. If it did, feel free to show us the panel in which that happens. Not much of a semantic argument I can offer against an actual illustration of something happening, is there?

 

More stuff pretending anyone has argued the things you say they argued.

 

Your "tryout" argument is equally absurd. Every first tryout is a first appearance -- Showcase No. 4 being the best example.

 

And your "prototype" argument is equally unpersuasive. Dr. Occult (supposed "prototype" for Superman) didn't become Superman. I can think of no "prototypes" that became what they supposedly were the "prototype" for.

 

I could point you to Sgt. Rock--weird that you didn't address an example in which the character's first appearance was recognized only after decades of industry consensus that was wrong. I wonder why?

 

Either way, I'm willing to concede your point: BB54 is neither a tryout for the Teen Titans nor a prototype nor a first appearance.

[HighStakesComics]

For argument's sake here's the last panel of BB 54 and the first of BB 60:

 

 

Edited August 24, 2015 by HighStakesComics

[HighStakesComics]

The problem I have is there is a bit of a difference between the team up that ends in 54, and the team we are introduced to in 60. How can we say the Teen Titans existed prior to Wonder Girl? Even if you could make the argument that a team formed permanently in 54, I don't see how you could make the argument that they are the same team we see at the beginning of 60?

[Chillax23]

The problem I have is there is a bit of a difference between the team up that ends in 54, and the team we are introduced to in 60. How can we say the Teen Titans existed prior to Wonder Girl? Even if you could make the argument that a team formed permanently in 54, I don't see how you could make the argument that they are the same team we see at the beginning of 60?

 

Keep in mind I have not read this entire thread (who has time for that) - but doesn't the last page posted of BB54 proclaim "Once again a startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!"

 

Doesn't this satisfy the need for a formal proclamation of a team? COmbined that with DC stating this was the first TT and isn't that enough?

 

Furthermore, with regards to Wonder Girl not joining the team until BB60 - why does that even matter if one core member is not present? So do the Avengers not form until issue #4 when Captain America joins (who is arguably the most important member of the Avengers?)

 

 

[nearmint]

The problem I have is there is a bit of a difference between the team up that ends in 54, and the team we are introduced to in 60. How can we say the Teen Titans existed prior to Wonder Girl? Even if you could make the argument that a team formed permanently in 54, I don't see how you could make the argument that they are the same team we see at the beginning of 60?

 

Keep in mind I have not read this entire thread (who has time for that) - but doesn't the last page posted of BB54 proclaim "Once again a startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!"

 

Doesn't this satisfy the need for a formal proclamation of a team? COmbined that with DC stating this was the first TT and isn't that enough?

 

Furthermore, with regards to Wonder Girl not joining the team until BB60 - why does that even matter if one core member is not present? So do the Avengers not form until issue #4 when Captain America joins (who is arguably the most important member of the Avengers?)

 

 

Exactly. Same thing with my earlier JSA example. Did the JSA not exist as a team in All-Star 3-7 before Wonder Woman arrived in #8?

[nearmint]

You guys require that it be proclaimed "we are a team" for it to be the first appearance.

 

I get it. I just don't agree with it.

 

No, don't require them to proclaim it. Just to do it. They don't. They work together and part ways with no plans to work together again, let alone as a formally constituted group. They don't proclaim it because they haven't done anything to proclaim. It's not the lack of proclamation that's the problem, it's the fact they haven't done anything to proclaim. To put it in other terms, just because two people sleep together one time doesn't mean they're married--and it's not because they don't issue a wedding proclamation, it's because they don't get married.

 

And yet, as illustrated above, they are proclaimed to be a "Startling new team of DC heroes" at the end of BB54.

[Crimebuster]

I've stayed out of this thread for months, and now I make the mistake of ducking my head back in here to find that the same people are arguing over the exact same things! Guys, really, what is the point? Is anybody being swayed by anything?

 

I should not get involved, but just this one thing.

 

Keep in mind I have not read this entire thread (who has time for that) - but doesn't the last page posted of BB54 proclaim "Once again a startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!"

 

 

This has been addressed, as you probably guessed.

 

DC was using the term "team" at this time to describe the team-ups in this title. They didn't switch to "team-up" until later.

 

For example, here's an ad for the very first team-up, in #50, describing how every issue of the title is going to feature a new "team":

 

 

 

Maybe I shouldn't have posted this, because it seems like some of the people in this thread are probably going to now try and claim that B&B #50 is the first appearance of the Detroit League.

 

Here's another example, an ad for the team-up in #53, which again is called a "team" even though it's just two random dudes running into each other:

 

 

 

Heck, given that The Atom later became the leader of the Teen Titans, maybe this unnamed "team" from #53 is actually the first appearance of the Teen Titans!

[sfcityduck]

I should not get involved, but just this one thing.

 

Keep in mind I have not read this entire thread (who has time for that) - but doesn't the last page posted of BB54 proclaim "Once again a startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!"

 

 

This has been addressed, as you probably guessed.

 

DC was using the term "team" at this time to describe the team-ups in this title. They didn't switch to "team-up" until later.

 

For example, here's an ad for the very first team-up, in #50, describing how every issue of the title is going to feature a new "team":

 

 

 

Incorrect. The above ad you link discusses the concept of having "two heroes," "teamed' together. Which is different than announcing a "new team" of superheros as we see in the last panel of BB54 -- a comic which clearly falls outside the concept announced this ad which is limited to "two heroes from the DC hall of fame."

[sfcityduck]

 

Here's another example, an ad for the team-up in #53, which again is called a "team" even though it's just two random dudes running into each other:

 

 

 

Heck, given that The Atom later became the leader of the Teen Titans, maybe this unnamed "team" from #53 is actually the first appearance of the Teen Titans!

 

This second ad is just another two hero team-up in line with the concept for the ad you discuss in the first example. But, not only was BB54 not a two hero team-up in line with that ad, but the two hero team-up was not the only thing happening in B&B in that time period. BB was not solely a team-up book after BB 50. For example, BB 57 and BB 58 introduced Metamorpho in two solo adventures. BB 60 was also not a "team-up" but, as all of you contend quite vociferously, a true "team" story (not a team-up of a team and a solo hero as in BB 94 with TT and Batman teaming up).

 

BB did not become a "team-up" book until after BB60.

 

So the notion that BB was just a "team-up" book after BB 50, and therefore BB54 is just a "team-up", is utterly false.

[Lazyboy]

The problem I have is there is a bit of a difference between the team up that ends in 54, and the team we are introduced to in 60. How can we say the Teen Titans existed prior to Wonder Girl? Even if you could make the argument that a team formed permanently in 54, I don't see how you could make the argument that they are the same team we see at the beginning of 60?

 

Keep in mind I have not read this entire thread (who has time for that) - but doesn't the last page posted of BB54 proclaim "Once again a startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!"

 

Doesn't this satisfy the need for a formal proclamation of a team? COmbined that with DC stating this was the first TT and isn't that enough?

 

Furthermore, with regards to Wonder Girl not joining the team until BB60 - why does that even matter if one core member is not present? So do the Avengers not form until issue #4 when Captain America joins (who is arguably the most important member of the Avengers?)

 

 

Exactly. Same thing with my earlier JSA example. Did the JSA not exist as a team in All-Star 3-7 before Wonder Woman arrived in #8?

Yes, the JSA was an established team when Wonder Woman joined. Not that All-Star 8 is relevant to the discussion since she doesn't even meet, let alone join, the JSA in that issue.

 

The Avengers were an established team when Captain America joined. Whatever hindsight tells us about Cap's importance to the team is irrelevant.

 

Wonder Girl was a founding member of the Teen Titans, a team that did not exist without her.

 

 

[Lazyboy]

 

Here's another example, an ad for the team-up in #53, which again is called a "team" even though it's just two random dudes running into each other:

 

 

Heck, given that The Atom later became the leader of the Teen Titans, maybe this unnamed "team" from #53 is actually the first appearance of the Teen Titans!

 

This second ad is just another two hero team-up in line with the concept for the ad you discuss in the first example. But, not only was BB54 not a two hero team-up in line with that ad, but the two hero team-up was not the only thing happening in B&B in that time period. BB was not solely a team-up book after BB 50. For example, BB 57 and BB 58 introduced Metamorpho in two solo adventures. BB 60 was also not a "team-up" but, as all of you contend quite vociferously, a true "team" story (not a team-up of a team and a solo hero as in BB 94 with TT and Batman teaming up).

 

BB did not become a "team-up" book until after BB60.

 

So the notion that BB was just a "team-up" book after BB 50, and therefore BB54 is just a "team-up", is utterly false.

 

 

The Brave and the Bold became a team-up series starting with issue 50 and a Batman team-up series starting with issue 67. There were 3 non-team-up issues in the first 10 after the change and 2 non-Batman team-up issues in the first 7 after he took over the title. Those are the only exceptions, and one of the non-team-up issues simply featured a new real team instead of just a team-up.

 

There was even another team-up of 3 characters who don't form a team, in issue 52. Precedent!

[nearmint]

I think we've firmly established that there's no consensus on this issue.

[sfcityduck]

Contrast this statement:

 

The Brave and the Bold became a team-up series starting with issue 50 and a Batman team-up series starting with issue 67.

 

With this statement:

 

There were 3 non-team-up issues in the first 10 after [bB50] ... and one of the non-team-up issues simply featured a new real team instead of just a team-up.

 

Exactly. You are refuting yourself. BB was not solely a "team-up" book after BB50. While your ad touts "two hero" team-ups, there were a number of issues after BB50 that departed from that concept. As you rightly admit, there were non-"team-up" issues after BB50. These "exceptions" included BB 57 and BB 58 which featured solo Metamorpho stories (a possible Showcase style tryout for his own series?), BB 54 and BB60 which featured the TT (again a possible Showcase style tryout?), and BB 52 which featured Sgt. Rock, Haunted Tank and Lt. Cloud.

 

Which just proves, as I said, that BB was not solely a "two hero" team-up book, as you claim the ad supports, until after BB 60.

 

Which means that claiming that BB54 is just a team-up because it was after BB50 is an utterly false claim.

Edited August 25, 2015 by sfcityduck

[Chillax23]

I just don't get how this is a debate at all:

 

- The last panel of BB54 declares them to be a new team

- The heroes undeniably teamed up to solve a problem/battle some evil

- DC claims this to be their first appearance

- They were missing a "key" member (as many other teams have been - i.e., Avengers)

- Even if it was accepted that BB was a "team-up" issue what does this change? So this team-up proved to be successful so they decided to keep it going, how does that change that the first appearance of the team was BB54?

- They didn't have their official name yet? How does this change whether they appeared or not - if in Action Comics 1 Superman appeared and did everything he did in that issue, but wasn't called Superman until Action Comics 2 - would that mean you wouldn't consider Superman's first appearance to be Action Comics 1?

 

The first appearance is clearly BB54 - in my opinion. (by the way I don't own either book - but want a BB54, so someone who thinks it isn't the first appearance of the TT please sell me one at a steep discount (thumbs u )

[HighStakesComics]

Read the thread, kid.

[Mijael.Levy]

Hulk 180 is the first app . End of argument