1st Teen Titans 3 3

[nearmint]

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

 

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7?

 

The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

 

So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster?

 

In this case? Both.

 

So if Wonder Girl had appeared in BB54, it would have been the Titans first appearance?

[HighStakesComics]

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

 

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7?

 

The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

 

So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster?

 

In this case? Both.

 

So if Wonder Girl had appeared in BB54, it would have been the Titans first appearance?

 

Listen to yourself

[nearmint]

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

 

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7?

 

The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

 

So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster?

 

In this case? Both.

 

So if Wonder Girl had appeared in BB54, it would have been the Titans first appearance?

 

Listen to yourself

 

Why would roster be important "in this case", as you say. Why would it be important with the Titans, but not important with the JSA?

[HighStakesComics]

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

 

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7?

 

The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

 

So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster?

 

In this case? Both.

 

So if Wonder Girl had appeared in BB54, it would have been the Titans first appearance?

 

Listen to yourself

 

Why would roster be important "in this case", as you say. Why would it be important with the Titans, but not important with the JSA?

 

In this case, the roster and team name are established in the same issue, just like the JSA's roster is established and named in ASC #3. If you can post a panel that either establishes the Titans roster in a prior issue to 60, and refers to them in the sense of a traditional superhero team please do.

[nearmint]

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

 

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7?

 

The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

 

So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster?

 

In this case? Both.

 

So if Wonder Girl had appeared in BB54, it would have been the Titans first appearance?

 

Listen to yourself

 

Why would roster be important "in this case", as you say. Why would it be important with the Titans, but not important with the JSA?

 

In this case, the roster and team name are established in the same issue, just like the JSA's roster is established and named in ASC #3. If you can post a panel that either establishes the Titans roster in a prior issue to 60, and refers to them in the sense of a traditional superhero team please do.

 

The nature of a team is that the roster changes all the time. Adding Wonder Girl in BB60 is no different than adding Wonder Woman in All-Star 8. If you want to argue that the team name is essential to marking a first appearance, that's at least a legitimate argument. But the roster is fluid, and I don't see a logical argument for it being essential.

[VintageComics]

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

 

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7?

 

The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

 

So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster?

 

In this case? Both.

 

There hasn't been a cohesive Avengers or X-men lineup since day one. The teams are constantly changing. That's just the way it's always been in comics.

 

I'm not a DC guy or a Teen Titans guy so I have no vested interest (although I did recently help pair a BB #54 CGC 9.6 with an owner ) but in my mind it's no contest. BB #54 is the 1st appearance.

[HighStakesComics]

I think what's at issue here is when a team was established in the first place. We have a book, Brave and the Bold 54, which features a group of 3 pre-existing heroes in a title that was featuring team-ups at the time of it's release. It sounds like what you gentlemen are arguing is that a team-up is the equivalent of forming a team.

[nearmint]

I think what's at issue here is when a team was established in the first place. We have a book, Brave and the Bold 54, which features a group of 3 pre-existing heroes in a title that was featuring team-ups at the time of it's release. It sounds like what you gentlemen are arguing is that a team-up is the equivalent of forming a team.

 

No, I'm arguing that when that team-up proves popular enough to have another, and give the team a name, that the original adventure is still the first appearance.

[Lazyboy]

There hasn't been a cohesive Avengers or X-men lineup since day one.

 

But there was an original lineup for both of those teams... and every other team that has ever existed in reality or fiction.

 

The teams are constantly changing. That's just the way it's always been in comics.

 

That's generally how teams work. After a team is established, there will likely be lineup changes in the future unless the team has a very limited existence.

 

I'm not a DC guy or a Teen Titans guy so I have no vested interest (although I did recently help pair a BB #54 CGC 9.6 with an owner ) but in my mind it's no contest. BB #54 is the 1st appearance.

 

BB 54 may be the first team-up of teen sidekicks without their adult counterparts, but a team-up isn't a team. Is there an earlier example of a teen sidekick team-up?

[VintageComics]

I disagree and I'll explain my logic next week when I get home.

 

Yes they weren't named the teen titans but they were a team.

 

 

[nearmint]

There hasn't been a cohesive Avengers or X-men lineup since day one.

 

But there was an original lineup for both of those teams... and every other team that has ever existed in reality or fiction.

 

The teams are constantly changing. That's just the way it's always been in comics.

 

That's generally how teams work. After a team is established, there will likely be lineup changes in the future unless the team has a very limited existence.

 

I'm not a DC guy or a Teen Titans guy so I have no vested interest (although I did recently help pair a BB #54 CGC 9.6 with an owner ) but in my mind it's no contest. BB #54 is the 1st appearance.

 

BB 54 may be the first team-up of teen sidekicks without their adult counterparts, but a team-up isn't a team. Is there an earlier example of a teen sidekick team-up?

 

Bucky and Toro in Young Allies.

 

I think a tryout is a team if the tryout works, which it did in this case.

[HighStakesComics]

Isn't the first appearance of the Young Allies in Young Allies #1? Is this truly comparable to the team up in Brave and the Bold #54? If the cover or story of BB 54 mentioned anything about "Teen Titans" I don't think we would be having this discussion. In your example, the front cover would appear to be a dead giveaway.

[JTLarsen]

C'Mon, Man! No one in their right mind could read through 54 only, finish the story, and proclaim that is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. It's just another team up, consistent with others that occur within the same time frame in the title, until BB 60, which introduces the team that was created after the team up in 54. At least that's how Robin tells it to Batman in BB 60.

Still waiting on one, measley panel from 54

 

While you're at it, you better convince everyone that Superman #1 isn't really Superman #1, as it was initially released as a one-shot, and only became a series after it's phenomenal success.

 

What was intended at the time of release isn't relevant. The result is what matters.

 

Yeah, but that's an apples to oranges comparison. Superman is Superman. There is nothing subjective about it. You are arguing that a book is a first appearance which A.) Doesn't mention the team appearing by name and B.) Doesn't include the entire original roster. If BB 54 referred to the Teen Titans and introduced the world to Wonder Girl my argument would have no merit. As it stands, I think my argument holds up pretty well

 

 

 

Not apples and oranges. You're claiming that you can't call BB54 the first Titans appearance simply because they don't call themselves the Titans in that issue. I'm saying you might as well claim that Superman #1 isn't #1 because it doesn't say #1 and wasn't intended to be a continuing series.

 

DC looked at the sucess of BB54 and decided to give the team a name and another issue, just as they looked at the success of the first issue of Superman and decided to publish another. Apples and apples.

 

At this point aren't we just arguing that 54 is a prototype then? When it's this close I think we have to go with the book that establishes clarity and casts away the doubt. You cannot argue that prior to 60 the Teen Titans existed.

Also, I think it's safe to say that after Action Comics #1 anyone who read it had a good idea who Superman was. Apples to oranges. In fact, since the first 13 page story within Action #1 is titled "Superman", Id say you are even making a case for 60 being the first appearance since the example you used clearly identifies the hero chronicled within. ?

 

Wow, you are all over the map. I think your faulty reasoning stems from the misguided notion that we need to freeze time after BB54 came out and look at it within the narrow context of that single issue.

 

We're looking at it in a broader context. A team formed and had an adventure, then 6 issues later another member joined the team and the name of the team was announced. That doesn't negate the fact that their first adventure occurred 6 issues earlier.

 

Nope. No team formed. If they formed, show the panel where they formed. Or the page. Or pages. They worked together, didn't form a team, parted ways without even exchanging email addresses.

 

We're getting into semantics here. Let's say I'm a great singer, and on a Saturday night I wander into an open-mic bar and meet a great guitar player, bass player, drummer, and saxophonist, and for the heck of it we perform together and rock the house. Then, the following Tuesday we decide to form a band, call ourselves The Screaming Bejebes, and perform again that night.

 

I would always consider that Saturday night when we first met to be the first time The Screaming Bejebes performed for a crowd. It doesn't matter that we hadn't intended to perform together before we walked into the bar that night, it doesn't matter that we hadn't decided to form a band, or come up with a name to call ourselves. To me all that stuff is secondary to the fact that Saturday was the first time we shared the stage and accomplished something together.

 

You, apparently, would consider the Tuesday to be the first appearance of The Screaming Bejebes. Maybe we're both right, or maybe it's just two different ways, both valid, of looking at the same situation. If it were any more clean-cut than that, as you seem to suggest, then this argument would have been settled years ago.

 

I think it's a useful analogy, but an imperfect one. Performances aren't physical objects. You can't "collect" a performance (aside from recordings, obvi). And even if we do accept your analogy, by your reasoning, the world would consider the first time that The Quarrymen included Lennon, McCartney and Harrison in its ranks as the first appearance (or performance) of The Beatles. Which they don't.

 

A prototype, maybe!

 

No, that's not my reasoning at all. In my analogy, you have four distinct people coming together to accomplish a goal, a performance. In BB54, the goal is to save the kidnapped teenagers from Mr Twister. The two scenarios are comparable.

 

In your Quarrymen analogy, an established band, or team, changes their name. That's a horse of a different color, and not comparable.

 

They don't come together to accomplish a goal. I believe they go to accomplish a goal and then discover that the others have come to do so, too. Another difference is that the performance was part of an ongoing endeavor--being a band. Saving the kidnapped teenagers was a one-off--they never even contemplate teaming up again. So, no, not totally comparable.

 

As for the Quarrymen, it wasn't a name change. They weren't the same band, they just included some of the same members. You had said the first time band members played together--regardless of name--would constitute the band's first appearance. By your logic, the first Quarrymen performance was the first Beatles appearance. If you're now saying that it doesn't "count" if they had a different name at the time, maybe you can explain why.

[JTLarsen]

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

 

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7?

 

The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

 

So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster?

 

Well, BEING a team--acting like one, forming one, constituting one--is certainly part of it! Individuals appearing in the same story don't by themselves constitute a "team."

[nearmint]

Isn't the first appearance of the Young Allies in Young Allies #1? Is this truly comparable to the team up in Brave and the Bold #54? If the cover or story of BB 54 mentioned anything about "Teen Titans" I don't think we would be having this discussion. In your example, the front cover would appear to be a dead giveaway.

 

I wasn't making a point with the Young Allies reference. Lazyboy asked if there's an earlier example of a sidekick team-up, and I gave him one.

[nearmint]

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

 

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7?

 

The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

 

So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster?

 

Well, BEING a team--acting like one, forming one, constituting one--is certainly part of it! Individuals appearing in the same story don't by themselves constitute a "team."

 

And that's the core of our disagreement. You guys seem to require an intent by DC to create a team that will have further adventures. For me, their first appearance is simply the first adventure that they shared.

[HighStakesComics]

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

 

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7?

 

The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

 

So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster?

 

Well, BEING a team--acting like one, forming one, constituting one--is certainly part of it! Individuals appearing in the same story don't by themselves constitute a "team."

 

And that's the core of our disagreement. You guys seem to require an intent by DC to create a team that will have further adventures. For me, their first appearance is simply the first adventure that they shared.

 

So you admit the story itself makes no reference to a team or to the Teen Titans? It's the first appearance simply because 3/4 original Teen Titans members appear in a team up together?

 

[nearmint]

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

 

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7?

 

The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

 

So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster?

 

Well, BEING a team--acting like one, forming one, constituting one--is certainly part of it! Individuals appearing in the same story don't by themselves constitute a "team."

 

And that's the core of our disagreement. You guys seem to require an intent by DC to create a team that will have further adventures. For me, their first appearance is simply the first adventure that they shared.

 

So you admit the story itself makes no reference to a team or to the Teen Titans? It's the first appearance simply because 3/4 original Teen Titans members appear in a team up together?

 

No team exists at the beginning of BB54. There's no mention of the Teen Titans.

 

But, by the end of the story, they've clearly worked as a team to defeat Mr. Twister.

 

Sales must have been strong enough on the issue for DC to give them another shot. They add a team name and draft Wonder Girl to attract girls to the book.

[JTLarsen]

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

 

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7?

 

The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

 

So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster?

 

Well, BEING a team--acting like one, forming one, constituting one--is certainly part of it! Individuals appearing in the same story don't by themselves constitute a "team."

 

And that's the core of our disagreement. You guys seem to require an intent by DC to create a team that will have further adventures. For me, their first appearance is simply the first adventure that they shared.

 

No, I don't require intent. Just the opposite. I require seeing it happen. The argument FOR BB54 is that it was intended to be a team. That hasn't been proven, but that's the argument. I don't care what they intended, no superhero team is formed in the book. If you consider the first adventure that two or more heroes share to be the first appearance of any team they also belong to, that's a definition you're certainly free to be guided by, but for people who have the more traditional definition of team, we should be clear about our terms.

 

Three superheroes battle crime together in BB54. They don't form or even discuss forming a superhero team.

[JTLarsen]

No Wonder Girl til 60, Nearmint.

 

No Wonder Woman til All-Star 8. Does that mean there was no Justice Society in All-Star 3-7?

 

The Justice Society was called the Justice Society before Wonder Woman came along. The Titans on the other hand......

 

So what's the qualification for a first appearance, having a team name, or the roster?

 

Well, BEING a team--acting like one, forming one, constituting one--is certainly part of it! Individuals appearing in the same story don't by themselves constitute a "team."

 

And that's the core of our disagreement. You guys seem to require an intent by DC to create a team that will have further adventures. For me, their first appearance is simply the first adventure that they shared.

 

So you admit the story itself makes no reference to a team or to the Teen Titans? It's the first appearance simply because 3/4 original Teen Titans members appear in a team up together?

 

No team exists at the beginning of BB54. There's no mention of the Teen Titans.

 

But, by the end of the story, they've clearly worked as a team to defeat Mr. Twister.

 

Sales must have been strong enough on the issue for DC to give them another shot. They add a team name and draft Wonder Girl to attract girls to the book.

 

"...worked together as a team..." seems a little redundant to me. Self-servingly. We can agree they worked together. How did they work together AS A TEAM that would be different from just working together? Were the cops or local teens (I forget the story's specifics) part of the team? Did they not work together with Robin, Kid Flash and Speedy?

 

Asserting that they worked together "...as a team..." does not mean they formed a formal, ongoing superhero team. If it did, someone by now would have posted the panel in which we could all see it happen.