1st Teen Titans 3 3

[HighStakesComics]

Also, if anyone has a copy of the 1st edition of the Overstreet Price Guide and wouldn't mind sharing how BB 54 is referred to at the time of its publication I would very much appreciate it. Thank you.

[Crimebuster]

I think we've firmly established that there's no consensus on this issue.

 

Here's something I can definitely agree on! I don't really see what purpose this thread serves any more, especially since it's gotten so long now that new readers aren't even reviewing the previous discussion, leading to just more and more circular arguments that get nowhere.

 

I just don't get how this is a debate at all

 

Me either, but the opposite direction.

 

To reiterate my position on this: DC can retcon their own universe, but they can't retcon ours. I'm still not convinced that anything in DC continuity establishes #54 as the Teen Titans first appearance, but even if it did, that doesn't change the fact that the Teen Titans as a team, a concept, and a title, did not first appear until #60.

 

If you were to time travel to January, 1965, before #60 came out, and ask a million comic book readers who the Teen Titans are, none of them would be able to answer, because the team did not exist yet.

 

#54 might be the more important book. It might be worth more, and maybe it should be worth more. But it is not the first Teen Titans. It should be self-evident that the team's first appearance cannot be prior to when they first appeared, but that is what the other side is arguing. People are trying to apply comic book storytelling logic to real world publishing history.

 

For me, this is akin to claiming that Avengers #71 is the first appearance of the Invaders, or that Our Army at War #168 is the first appearance of the Unknown Soldier. Those things may be true "in continuity," but they aren't true in reality. And basing anything on continuity, especially DC continuity, seems to me to be beyond futile, given that the entire DC universe has been completely or partially rebooted at least, what, four times in the last 30 years?

 

 

 

I think the only thing this pointless argument has accomplished is to make me reconsider the relative importance of TTA #27 and TTA #35.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Crimebuster

[Sqeggs]

Also, if anyone has a copy of the 1st edition of the Overstreet Price Guide and wouldn't mind sharing how BB 54 is referred to at the time of its publication I would very much appreciate it. Thank you.

 

Been reading this thread with interest. Being I do in fact have a copy of the first ed of Overstreet.

 

Here are the relevant listings:

 

54--Kid Flash, Robin & Aqualad

 

60--Teen Titans

 

The prices for the two books are the same.

 

Make of that what you will.

[sfcityduck]

 

If you were to time travel to January, 1965, before #60 came out, and ask a million comic book readers who the Teen Titans are, none of them would be able to answer, because the team did not exist yet.

 

 

If you were to time travel to October 1965, the month after Strange Adventures 180, asked a million comic book readers who Animal Man was, none of them would be able to answer, because the NAME did not exist yet.

 

But ... the character did. He'd been introduced in Strange Adventures 180, sans NAME. Strange Adventures 180 is the first appearance of "Animal Man," even though he didn't gain that moniker until his third appearance in Strange Adventures 190 (he'd also appeared in Strange Adventures 184).

 

The name is not what matters.

 

And, no, this is not a "retcon" by DC. BB60 made clear that the team existed prior to BB60 and it cites directly to BB54.

[HighStakesComics]

Also, if anyone has a copy of the 1st edition of the Overstreet Price Guide and wouldn't mind sharing how BB 54 is referred to at the time of its publication I would very much appreciate it. Thank you.

 

Been reading this thread with interest. Being I do in fact have a copy of the first ed of Overstreet.

 

Here are the relevant listings:

 

54--Kid Flash, Robin & Aqualad

 

60--Teen Titans

 

The prices for the two books are the same.

 

Make of that what you will.

 

Any chance we could find out which edition they made the change please?

[Sqeggs]

Also, if anyone has a copy of the 1st edition of the Overstreet Price Guide and wouldn't mind sharing how BB 54 is referred to at the time of its publication I would very much appreciate it. Thank you.

 

Been reading this thread with interest. Being I do in fact have a copy of the first ed of Overstreet.

 

Here are the relevant listings:

 

54--Kid Flash, Robin & Aqualad

 

60--Teen Titans

 

The prices for the two books are the same.

 

Make of that what you will.

 

 

Any chance we could find out which edition they made the change please?

 

That may take awhile. I had the 1st ed handy, but most of the other early editions are packed away somewhere.

[Lazyboy]

 

If you were to time travel to January, 1965, before #60 came out, and ask a million comic book readers who the Teen Titans are, none of them would be able to answer, because the team did not exist yet.

 

 

If you were to time travel to October 1965, the month after Strange Adventures 180, asked a million comic book readers who Animal Man was, none of them would be able to answer, because the NAME did not exist yet.

 

But ... the character did. He'd been introduced in Strange Adventures 180, sans NAME. Strange Adventures 180 is the first appearance of "Animal Man," even though he didn't gain that moniker until his third appearance in Strange Adventures 190 (he'd also appeared in Strange Adventures 184).

 

The name is not what matters.

 

And, no, this is not a "retcon" by DC. BB60 made clear that the team existed prior to BB60 and it cites directly to AFTER BB54.

 

That's great. Except for the word you left out, but I fixed it for you.

 

From earlier in the thread:

Meeting someone but not catching their name is an awesome analogy!

 

 

Too bad it won't change anything Though.b hearts and minds are made up.

 

Only for individuals. A team doesn't exist until it's officially formed. You still exist even if I don't know your name.

[Lazyboy]

I just don't get how this is a debate at all:

 

- The last panel of BB54 declares them to be a new team

 

The editorial comment is generic for the team-up title that Brave and the Bold had become. That little blurb also declares, "Watch Brave and Bold for new teams, new adventures, new excitement!" But the only new team that appeared in the title after that issue was the Teen Titans when they were introduced in issue 60... until the final issue that introduced the Outsiders nearly 150 issues and 20 years later!

 

- The heroes undeniably teamed up to solve a problem/battle some evil

 

Yes, they teamed up, just like the featured characters in nearly every other issue of the title until it was cancelled, they did not at any point form a team.

 

- DC claims this to be their first appearance

 

Multiple DC sources claim that BB 54 is NOT their first appearance.

 

 

Brave and the Bold 54 is relevant to the history of the Titans. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. But the Teen Titans do not exist at any point during BB 54.

[Chillax23]

 

Brave and the Bold 54 is relevant to the history of the Titans. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. But the Teen Titans do not exist at any point during BB 54.

 

So what in your opinion would have made BB54 the definitive first appearance of the Teen Titans?

[HighStakesComics]

 

Brave and the Bold 54 is relevant to the history of the Titans. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. But the Teen Titans do not exist at any point during BB 54.

 

So what in your opinion would have made BB54 the definitive first appearance of the Teen Titans?

 

Really this is about choices. And when the choice is about wherein lies the first appearance.....

 

 

 

 

 

It may be best to start with the front cover. Ask yourself. Which of these two books has more in common with the first appearances of other classic teams throughout comic book literature?

 

 

 

 

[sfcityduck]

Also, if anyone has a copy of the 1st edition of the Overstreet Price Guide and wouldn't mind sharing how BB 54 is referred to at the time of its publication I would very much appreciate it. Thank you.

 

Been reading this thread with interest. Being I do in fact have a copy of the first ed of Overstreet.

 

Here are the relevant listings:

 

54--Kid Flash, Robin & Aqualad

 

60--Teen Titans

 

The prices for the two books are the same.

 

Make of that what you will.

 

Any chance we could find out which edition they made the change please?

 

I think you are confused. Overstreet didn't list BB60 as "first app. of Teen Titans" in the early OPGs. Basically the early volumes of the OPG just list for every single B&B issue what the cover said. Back then these were sub $1.50 books and Bob was doing the OPG on what looked like a typewriter through volume 9.

 

With volume 10, Bob entered the computer age, markedly improved the graphics, and started adding a lot more information. It was in that first redesigned issue that BB54 was first designated as the first appearance of the Teen Titans. There were many similar instances in that volume of additional info being added to the descriptions and the font got much smaller in the OPG as a result.

 

 

[Mijael.Levy]

 

Brave and the Bold 54 is relevant to the history of the Titans. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. But the Teen Titans do not exist at any point during BB 54.

 

So what in your opinion would have made BB54 the definitive first appearance of the Teen Titans?

 

Really this is about choices. And when the choice is about wherein lies the first appearance.....

 

 

 

 

 

It may be best to start with the front cover. Ask yourself. Which of these two books has more in common with the first appearances of other classic teams throughout comic book literature?

 

 

 

 

They look more like a powerful team in B&B # 60

[VintageComics]

You guys require that it be proclaimed "we are a team" for it to be the first appearance.

 

I get it. I just don't agree with it.

 

And I agree with you.

 

Many teams appeared in a book, did something together and then became a team after the fact.

[VintageComics]

For argument's sake here's the last panel of BB 54 and the first of BB 60:

 

 

 

 

Wait, so even though the last panel of BB #54 clearly states "Once again a startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed. What Brave and Bold for new teams, new adventures, new excitment!" and they reintroduce the same team in BB #60, you're saying they weren't a team in #54?

 

 

Who cares if the team changed slightly? We've already established that teams are always changing. Hulk's role changed in the Avengers across nearly every issue. Does that mean because he was in Avengers #1 as an Avenger that it wasn't really the Avengers?

[VintageComics]

The problem I have is there is a bit of a difference between the team up that ends in 54, and the team we are introduced to in 60. How can we say the Teen Titans existed prior to Wonder Girl? Even if you could make the argument that a team formed permanently in 54, I don't see how you could make the argument that they are the same team we see at the beginning of 60?

 

Keep in mind I have not read this entire thread (who has time for that) - but doesn't the last page posted of BB54 proclaim "Once again a startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!"

 

Doesn't this satisfy the need for a formal proclamation of a team? COmbined that with DC stating this was the first TT and isn't that enough?

 

Furthermore, with regards to Wonder Girl not joining the team until BB60 - why does that even matter if one core member is not present? So do the Avengers not form until issue #4 when Captain America joins (who is arguably the most important member of the Avengers?)

 

 

You read my mind and posted before I could.

 

And Hulk was a team member...and then he wasn't. And then he was. And then he wasn't.

 

It's no contest in my opinion. Especially with the statement that DC has already called them a team.

[VintageComics]

But the Teen Titans do not exist at any point during BB 54.

 

But DC stated that they were a new team. Obviously new enough that the execs at DC hadn't even thought of the name Teen Titans yet. But they were more or less the same team, reintroduced a few issues later with a gimmicky name and maybe a new member.

 

Still, the same team that was not only introduced but also noted on the last page that they were a new 'team'.

 

It doesn't follow the formula of most team introductions but that doesn't mean it wasn't their first appearance.

 

Again, no contest in my books.

 

 

 

 

[TeddieMercede]

is it that hard to go through the entire thread ? or even the first 10 pages ? or even go back a couple pages from the end ?

[Lazyboy]

But the Teen Titans do not exist at any point during BB 54.

 

But DC stated that they were a new team. Obviously new enough that the execs at DC hadn't even thought of the name Teen Titans yet. But they were more or less the same team, reintroduced a few issues later with a gimmicky name and maybe a new member.

 

Still, the same team that was not only introduced but also noted on the last page that they were a new 'team'.

 

It doesn't follow the formula of most team introductions but that doesn't mean it wasn't their first appearance.

 

Again, no contest in my books.

 

 

 

Once again,

 

The editorial comment is generic for the team-up title that Brave and the Bold had become. That little blurb also declares, "Watch Brave and Bold for new teams, new adventures, new excitement!" But the only new team that appeared in the title after that issue was the Teen Titans when they were introduced in issue 60... until the final issue that introduced the Outsiders nearly 150 issues and 20 years later!

[VintageComics]

is it that hard to go through the entire thread ? or even the first 10 pages ? or even go back a couple pages from the end ?

 

All discussions go through circular reasoning and stuff gets repeated. I just can't understand why it's so difficult to grasp/admit that they first appeared in #54.

[TeddieMercede]

is it that hard to go through the entire thread ? or even the first 10 pages ? or even go back a couple pages from the end ?

 

All discussions go through circular reasoning and stuff gets repeated. I just can't understand why it's so difficult to grasp/admit that they first appeared in #54.

 

Circular arguments without actually using the knowledge which has been laid out is a waste of time.