Where in the world was the Quality Control at CGC??? 43 43

[djzombi]

On 7/21/2022 at 3:17 PM, jokiing said:

Gotta love this. Filling out the Mechanical Error form and noticed this change. Totaling ignoring QC mishaps and blaming all damage and debris as "in transit".

WOW.  Just wow.  

[SpineTic]

 

[MetalPSI]

On 7/25/2022 at 8:38 AM, ak47po said:

 

Another stupid video or self entitled brat rant? YOU DECIDE 

Isnt democracy nice?

[Qalyar]

On 7/25/2022 at 9:04 AM, thingsofstuff said:

So this is a thing...

not sure if they got delivered that way or if they cracked them open.  This came up on a saved search I had.  I hope the cases are this easy to crack open and resell to scammers.

 

 

 

@CGC Mike Not sure what the policy is for situations like this, but thought you'd want a ping on this one. The certification numbers are legible on these empty cases -- 4054624004 and 4054624005 -- and currently pull up seemingly normal records for 9.2 copies of Wolverine #1.

I know I've said this before, but this is yet another excellent reason to about sister company NGC's policy of flagging certification numbers with known concerns. In this case, you'd almost certainly want to use the CGC equivalent of "CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE". In this case, there are presumably good copies of Wolverine #1 in slabs with these numbers (however this happened), but the existence of empty slabs in the wild means that they should be resubmitted, re-evaluated, and issued new numbers if possible to avoid the potential for or appearance of potential for fraud. Hence, customer service. For many of the other books in this thread, where there are known Mechanical Errors, NGC preemptively marks the certification "MECHANICAL ERROR" to encourage label correction, rather than depend on slab holders to resubmit. The current CGC system disincentivizes relabeling of books incorrectly described as something more valuable than they already are, which keeps the worst of all error labels in circulation longer.

NGC is just down the hall. It baffles me that CGC hasn't adopted the same certification verification safeguards.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 7/25/2022 at 11:28 AM, Qalyar said:

@CGC Mike Not sure what the policy is for situations like this, but thought you'd want a ping on this one. The certification numbers are legible on these empty cases -- 4054624004 and 4054624005 -- and currently pull up seemingly normal records for 9.2 copies of Wolverine #1.

I know I've said this before, but this is yet another excellent reason to about sister company NGC's policy of flagging certification numbers with known concerns. In this case, you'd almost certainly want to use the CGC equivalent of "CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE". In this case, there are presumably good copies of Wolverine #1 in slabs with these numbers (however this happened), but the existence of empty slabs in the wild means that they should be resubmitted, re-evaluated, and issued new numbers if possible to avoid the potential for or appearance of potential for fraud. Hence, customer service. For many of the other books in this thread, where there are known Mechanical Errors, NGC preemptively marks the certification "MECHANICAL ERROR" to encourage label correction, rather than depend on slab holders to resubmit. The current CGC system disincentivizes relabeling of books incorrectly described as something more valuable than they already are, which keeps the worst of all error labels in circulation longer.

NGC is just down the hall. It baffles me that CGC hasn't adopted the same certification verification safeguards.

These cases were done on purpose by cgc, do you not know this? there was a big hubbub when they were issued....

These were "gimmicks" or the like, promoted by the "bad idea" company earlier this year or late last, and CGC went with it, clarity the "bad idea" is an actual company name and not a opinion  

[BriD.]

On 7/25/2022 at 11:32 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

These cases were done on purpose by cgc, do you not know this? there was a big hubbub when they were issued....

These were "gimmicks" or the like, promoted by the "bad idea" company earlier this year or late last, and CGC went with it, clarity the "bad idea" is an actual company name and not a opinion  

I thought that when I first saw this but I don't think these are the Bad Idea invisible comics. These are cracked out cases

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 7/25/2022 at 11:39 AM, BriD. said:

I thought that when I first saw this but I don't think these are the Bad Idea invisible comics. These are cracked out cases

ah so they're not sealed? Or the seller somehow resealed?

Either way, this is on the Seller and not CGC, as CGC didn't provide the product. I could crack a slab and if it didn't do much damage from experience, then use glue and sell, but this doesn't make CGC culpable imo

I mean  that is just laughable, it's the hood wink. Instead of slashing the seller, somehow it has hoodwinked to make CGC to blame? the sadder part is that CGC is in a grey area where people think "maybe"  

[Qalyar]

On 7/25/2022 at 11:32 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

These cases were done on purpose by cgc, do you not know this? there was a big hubbub when they were issued....

These were "gimmicks" or the like, promoted by the "bad idea" company earlier this year or late last, and CGC went with it, clarity the "bad idea" is an actual company name and not a opinion  

These are not the stupid Bad Idea invisible comics where the publisher got to pay to choose their own grades and no, I'm not still annoyed that CGC allowed that, why would you think otherwise?

These are ostensibly cases for copies of Wolverine #1 with no comic inside. So they're either broken-out cases or were shipped without the comic in error. If the former, the certifications should be removed; if the latter, the certifications need to be flagged for potential shenanigans in future. Either way....

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 7/25/2022 at 11:59 AM, Qalyar said:

These are not the stupid Bad Idea invisible comics where the publisher got to pay to choose their own grades and no, I'm not still annoyed that CGC allowed that, why would you think otherwise?

These are ostensibly cases for copies of Wolverine #1 with no comic inside. So they're either broken-out cases or were shipped without the comic in error. If the former, the certifications should be removed; if the latter, the certifications need to be flagged for potential shenanigans in future. Either way....

I was wondering how ngc flags them per your example? How does cgc or ngs prove the pics are legit ? I thought that's why cgc requested the label?

Are you saying ngc can defunct a slabbed coin over some pics?

I was confused by the pics myself is why I asked, not that I was thinking otherwise, it's why I asked.

How can cgc be culpable for the sellers listing? I now see the cracks in the case, so cgc tamper proof still worked and they've done their duty to the best of their ability but I get it.

The reason I bothered to quote or post at all? A guy with his daughter at the LCS just this past weekend was asking about "empty slabs to put comics in!" I told him there may be some but I added that I thought without the cgc label if so. If there is an aftermarket for plastic? Is your only issue that someone may put something other that a such and such grade wolverine book in a wolverine slab? And or reseal?

I get what you're saying but exactly what do you expect cgc or how do you expect them to cover all the bases as mentioned?

Edited July 25, 2022 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

No Worries @Qalyar

I encourage you speaking up.

Just to be honest, I don't know that it is possible  If NGS or what not has it in place then I agree @CGC Mike

[CGC Mike]

On 7/25/2022 at 12:28 PM, Qalyar said:

@CGC Mike Not sure what the policy is for situations like this, but thought you'd want a ping on this one. The certification numbers are legible on these empty cases -- 4054624004 and 4054624005 -- and currently pull up seemingly normal records for 9.2 copies of Wolverine #1.

Thanks for the heads up.  I will definitely check into all of this when I go through this thread for QC issues.  This will probably require a different e-mail to upper management.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 7/25/2022 at 12:39 PM, CGC Mike said:

Thanks for the heads up.  I will definitely check into all of this when I go through this thread for QC issues.  This will probably require a different e-mail to upper management.

Thanks! I must have misunderstood!

[Qalyar]

On 7/25/2022 at 12:06 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I was wondering how ngc flags them per your example? How does cgc or ngs prove the pics are legit ? I thought that's why cgc requested the label?

Are you saying ngc can defunct a slabbed coin over some pics?

I was confused by the pics myself is why I asked, not that I was thinking otherwise, it's why I asked.

How can cgc be culpable for the sellers listing? I now see the cracks in the case, so cgc tamper proof still worked and they've done their duty to the best of their ability but I get it.

The reason I bothered to quote or post at all? A guy with his daughter at the LCS just this past weekend was asking about "empty slabs to put comics in!" I told him there may be some but I added that I thought without the cgc label if so. If there is an aftermarket for plastic? Is your only issue that someone may put something other that a such and such grade wolverine book in a wolverine slab? And or reseal?

I get what you're saying but exactly what do you expect cgc or how do you expect them to cover all the bases as mentioned?

So, NGC has a few extra complications over CGC because there actually are fairly decent quality counterfeit NGC slabs, while (to my knowledge) there aren't really any credible CGC slab forgeries. In part because of this, NGC has several notations that it can place on a certification which are visible when you enter it on their certification lookup tool.

• CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE is sort of a catch-all. It means there's something that NGC would like to discuss with the holder of the slab. It's my understanding that this doesn't necessarily mean that the slab or certification is bad, but... well, you should contact customer service. If I was in charge at CGC, I might apply this status to slabs where there was reason to believe there was something wrong other than a labeling error, such as books known to have had substantial post-encapsulation (or, sure, mid-encapsulation) damage or that were encapsulated with debris or whatnot.
• POSSIBLE COUNTERFEIT HOLDER is exactly what it says on the tin; there is believed to be a counterfeit holder using this certification number. That doesn't mean, of course, that the slabbed coin you are holding is the counterfeit slab, so you should contact NGC customer service. I believe the general goal in these cases is to reslab the genuinely encapsulated coins with a new number, but I may be wrong. Eventually someone will try to forge CGC slabs, so it's probably a good idea to have a procedure in place ahead of time.
• MECHANICAL ERROR means that NGC believes the slab has been mislabeled. Like, well, a lot of the books in this thread. Their guidance says that "this coin should be returned to NGC so that the label can be corrected", but in the meantime, there's an obvious notice on the certification that indicates there's something wrong. To my knowledge, it doesn't say what is wrong, and that's fine. It's good enough to flag likely problems. Obviously, this is the way to deal with things like the several UF4 reprints that are sitting in slabs purporting to be the originals.
• DELETED is also what it says on the tin. Sometimes this means that they are aware that the coin was removed from the holder and so the certification number was retired. But I do understand that some coins have had their certification revoked for other causes. They do have a process via customer service to appeal the deletion of a certification in case there was an error in that process.

Now what I can't answer is what their standard of evidence is to get coin certifications notated in these regards. I suspect that's not strictly public knowledge, especially regarding slab forgeries. But obviously, the CGC folks can walk down the hall and have a meeting with NGC's certification verification team.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 7/25/2022 at 1:21 PM, Qalyar said:

So, NGC has a few extra complications over CGC because there actually are fairly decent quality counterfeit NGC slabs, while (to my knowledge) there aren't really any credible CGC slab forgeries. In part because of this, NGC has several notations that it can place on a certification which are visible when you enter it on their certification lookup tool.

• CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE is sort of a catch-all. It means there's something that NGC would like to discuss with the holder of the slab. It's my understanding that this doesn't necessarily mean that the slab or certification is bad, but... well, you should contact customer service. If I was in charge at CGC, I might apply this status to slabs where there was reason to believe there was something wrong other than a labeling error, such as books known to have had substantial post-encapsulation (or, sure, mid-encapsulation) damage or that were encapsulated with debris or whatnot.
• POSSIBLE COUNTERFEIT HOLDER is exactly what it says on the tin; there is believed to be a counterfeit holder using this certification number. That doesn't mean, of course, that the slabbed coin you are holding is the counterfeit slab, so you should contact NGC customer service. I believe the general goal in these cases is to reslab the genuinely encapsulated coins with a new number, but I may be wrong. Eventually someone will try to forge CGC slabs, so it's probably a good idea to have a procedure in place ahead of time.
• MECHANICAL ERROR means that NGC believes the slab has been mislabeled. Like, well, a lot of the books in this thread. Their guidance says that "this coin should be returned to NGC so that the label can be corrected", but in the meantime, there's an obvious notice on the certification that indicates there's something wrong. To my knowledge, it doesn't say what is wrong, and that's fine. It's good enough to flag likely problems. Obviously, this is the way to deal with things like the several UF4 reprints that are sitting in slabs purporting to be the originals.
• DELETED is also what it says on the tin. Sometimes this means that they are aware that the coin was removed from the holder and so the certification number was retired. But I do understand that some coins have had their certification revoked for other causes. They do have a process via customer service to appeal the deletion of a certification in case there was an error in that process.

Now what I can't answer is what their standard of evidence is to get coin certifications notated in these regards. I suspect that's not strictly public knowledge, especially regarding slab forgeries. But obviously, the CGC folks can walk down the hall and have a meeting with NGC's certification verification team.

Thanks! I'm sure as the op was to CGC mike, that you might have gone into this detail in shorter sentences, but I had no idea so I'm glad I asked

I definitely wasn't trying to insinuate, nor stick a foot into either of our mouths  But knowledge is power! I knew you had some facts that I was unaware of, and I brushed it off as I was thrown by the pics  I can see that this makes sense if it is able to be appropriated to CGC  

[Qalyar]

On 7/25/2022 at 1:25 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Thanks! I'm sure as the op was to CGC mike, that you might have gone into this detail in shorter sentences, but I had no idea so I'm glad I asked

I definitely wasn't trying to insinuate, nor stick a foot into either of our mouths  But knowledge is power! I knew you had some facts that I was unaware of, and I brushed it off as I was thrown by the pics  I can see that this makes sense if it is able to be appropriated to CGC  

Yeah, I have no doubt that Mike and the other CGC staff know all that already; it was more for the benefit of the community who might not have as much of any idea what I was talking about. I've long believed that implementing something like this is an important step to fixing the "error era". Improving the QA process serves to reduce errors going forward, but verification notations work to correct the potential market impact of problematic books that already exist.

And that includes notations for certification numbers where there's credible evidence that open or unsealed slabs exist. We've seen pictures of a few others, where the slab simply missed the sonic weld. So far, those seem to have all gone to upstanding collectors who merely wanted their book encapsulated properly... but in the long run, they represent a potential source of outright certification forgeries, so they're important to keep ahead of.

[jokiing]

On 7/25/2022 at 7:04 AM, thingsofstuff said:

So this is a thing...

not sure if they got delivered that way or if they cracked them open.  This came up on a saved search I had.  I hope the cases aren't this easy to crack open and resell to scammers.

 

 

 

Would be interesting to see the seller's description on this auction

[thingsofstuff]

On 7/25/2022 at 2:59 PM, jokiing said:

Would be interesting to see the seller's description on this auction

I put the link in the OP and here again

FWIW @CGC Mike this seller is willing to take offers ... they sent me one for $79

I'm not sure any reason to sell these to someone other than something shady.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225088169604?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=0RzxozKLQJm&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=4D-q50OTRh6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[SpineTic]

 

On 7/25/2022 at 2:59 PM, jokiing said:

Would be interesting to see the seller's description on this auction

Same seller as above. They must have a method of cracking the CGC cases without much damage, this one was sold.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325244678329?nma=true&si=UsXCgNT0pebniach6QwPvpm%2BZyY%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by ak47po

[CGC Mike]

On 7/25/2022 at 5:47 PM, thingsofstuff said:

I put the link in the OP and here again

FWIW @CGC Mike this seller is willing to take offers ... they sent me one for $79

I'm not sure any reason to sell these to someone other than something shady.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225088169604?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=0RzxozKLQJm&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=4D-q50OTRh6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

On 7/25/2022 at 6:07 PM, ak47po said:

 

Same seller as above. They must have a method of cracking the CGC cases without much damage, this one was sold.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325244678329?nma=true&si=UsXCgNT0pebniach6QwPvpm%2BZyY%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

I sent these in to CGC asking if the cert numbers could be made invalid.  

[jokiing]

On 7/25/2022 at 7:04 AM, thingsofstuff said:

So this is a thing...

not sure if they got delivered that way or if they cracked them open.  This came up on a saved search I had.  I hope the cases aren't this easy to crack open and resell to scammers.

 

 

 

I contacted the seller,,,,  "The holders are open at the bottom and sealed at the top."