Action Comics #2 CGC 9.4

[Mmehdy]

It ends with the label.....the stigma....the prejudice....mine is better than yours.....if every comic book has been cleaned or repaired or whatever..the color label means nothing....end it..and end the joke....and go on a straight 10.0 grading system.

[bluechip]

No issues with full disclosure, but yes, there is need for a conserved grade to alleviate the PLOD/GLOD stigma that induces an irrational penalization based solely on label color. I'm persuaded that comic grading needs to be in sync with other paper collectibles in the antiquities trade. Some collectors may be adamantly opposed to this, but collecting in any field where appraisals impact value requires consistency that makes sense to both appraisers and the public at large. My

The contempt being shown for collectors' ability to think for themselves is unbelievable.

 

Are you guys really saying that collectors are so stupid that the color of the label is all that matters to them, and that the only reason restored books are stigmatized is because CGC used a different color label?

 

So if CGC had only had blue color labels from the start for all books, whether unrestored, restored or conserved, but the label said "Conserved" or "Restored" if a book were conserved or restored, then there would be no price differential, or that the differential would be much less than it currently is?

 

If so, then I respectfully disagree. This blue label "conserved" 9.4 Action 2 will go for much less than a universal blue label 9.4 Action 2 would've gone for. I have no way of proving how the differential would compare to this same Action 2 in a PLOD, but I doubt it would be all that big.

 

"Contempt" is a very strong word to use in this context and doesn't entirely make sense. The more that a person believes that collectors can think for themselves then the more I would imagine you'd think they do not need colored labels.

For the record, I`ve never felt strongly that the label for restored books should be a different color (notwithstanding my jokes that restored books deserve to be stigmatized with a literal scarlet letter). I think CGC just did that at the start to make it easy for people seeing the slab from a distance or from a krappy scan to know that it was a restored book. Remember that the printing on the old labels was tiny, and at the time that CGC launched, massive scans that would make it easy to read the fine print on the label were not the norm yet.

 

I have enough respect for the intelligence of collectors that I think they can distinguish between an unrestored blue label and blue label with "cleaned" or "restored" or "conserved" on it. I similarly think that for collectors who are not into restored/conserved books, those words on a blue label would be just as much of a turn-off as a purple label. I`ve never bought a blue label book that said "tiny dot of color touch" or "tiny drop of glue". Just because CGC for some reason has determined that it`s not restoration, doesn`t mean that it`s not restoration.

 

Well put

[bluechip]

Yes... Any difference in label design or content that identified restored books would be enough for the stigma to recur..

 

The "stigma" is the restoration itself, not the colour of the label.

 

Again if restored book collectors are so turned off by the colour of the labels on their slabs, just crack the books out and put them in a mylar.

 

But this isn't about that. It's about money. Or at least "value". They seem to want to have their cake and eat it too- get a great deal on a restored book, and then immediately turn around and demand that their restored book be "worth" the same as an un-restored book, and talk of re-inventing an entire grading system that works just fine, so they can feel better about owning restored books.

 

If this is supposed to be about the love of the hobby and individual books, just owning the book at all, in the condition that was affordable at the time should be enough, right? (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

The best way to prove that -- in fact the only way -- is for books to be offered with words and not colors.

 

 

[Cat-Man_America]

 

Well, as I said, prolonged residence on these boards can lead one to vastly overestimate the sophistication of the typical collector. Unleashing a flood of formerly purple books in blue labels (I'm assuming that there would be no signifier beyond expanded label notes) is bound to give an opening to less than scrupulous dealers. Particularly given that many blue label books already have label notes.

 

Less than scrupulous dealers already prey on unwary comic collectors. They usually do it with raw books and a winning smile.

 

"why should we assume an experienced comic collector lacks the visual acumen to read the fine print that goes with a professionally graded book?" Because "cleaned" versus "cleaned" and "minor color touch" versus "color touch" and "spot of glue" versus "spine glued" aren't self-evident distinctions. As it is, the purple label provides the collector with CGC's judgement that significant (rather than minimal) restoration has been done on a book.

 

Disclosure is the key to books finding their own range in the marketplace. 3rd party grading and secure holders makes this easier. Notes provide a welcome crib sheet. Adding a color warning label is just a lazy way to assign values via a bell curve.

 

Eliminate that signifier and, sure, caveat emptor, but I have no doubt that when the smoke clears some collectors will feel that they have been taken advantage of by buying books that they wouldn't have bought (at least at the prices they bought them at) had they realized the extent of the restoration in the book.

 

No one will feel disadvantaged so long as comics aren't relegated to becoming a hobby of extremes with a color label barring the way to wider acceptance in the antiquities marketplace. Like I said, unbiased 3rd party grading and disclosure is an essential part of our hobby's growth, ...color coding & stigmatization isn't.

 

Very similar to the situation when collectors in the pre-CGC days bought Church and other high-grade books without knowing that color touch and other work had been done to them. You could argue that an "experienced collector" ought to have been able to detect the work done, but in fact many did not. CGC's success is due in part to its ability to help collectors avoid these problems.

 

CGC achieved success through establishing grading precedents. Disclosure was the key, not colored labels. Purple (restored) labels are an artifact that hinders appreciation of desirable books. The hobby has matured.

 

In this respect, yes, I am "suggesting that the label color should play a role in determining value." Or, at any rate, I'm suggesting that it does determine value to the extent that the same book in a blue label, even with extensive label notes, is likely to sell for more than it does in a purple label -- for the reasons noted above.

 

Of course you do, and I respectfully disagree. Without the label color determining value collectors and dealers have a much wider bargaining range and restored books become more desirable & competitive.

 

With respect to the effect on the prices of currently blue books of placing formerly purple books in blue labels, here is the argument: I find it hard to believe that the switch to a blue label would have no effect on the value of a formerly purple label book. (If it would have no effect, why are people advocating the change? For purely aesthetic reasons?)

 

You're proposing hypotheticals and I'm not in sync with your conclusions. I'm in favor of switching mostly to blue because 1) it would streamline the system, 2) make the labels more aesthetically appealing and 3) improve the desirability (value) of formerly purple/green books that are often shunned for (arguably) minor faults.

 

If formerly purple label books become more desirable, how can the result not be to reduce the demand for currently blue label books? Consider someone who is on the fence between buying, say, a Batman 1 5.0 blue label for $75,000 or a purple label 7.0 for $40,000. If the purple 7.0 is transformed into a blue label 7.0 (with extensive label notes) and that change tips the buyer into buying the book, well that's one less person in the market for the blue label 5.0.

 

It's more likely that the restored 7.0 would be regraded as a nice presenting 5.0 universal blue with extensive label notes, it's appropriate value determined competitively, based on all of these factors.

 

The only way I can see the "rising tide lifts all boats" argument working is if the change from purple labels to blue labels attracts significant numbers of new collectors to the market. Possible, I suppose, but seems unlikely to me.

 

Ya never know, ...it might increase the naval demographic in the collecting pool.

[Bookery]

In this respect, yes, I am "suggesting that the label color should play a role in determining value."

 

I argue against purple labels as a sort of short-hand in these discussions, but in reality my preference is something more complicated and much more controversial. I wouldn't really care if someone needs a purple label to help them quickly know if a book has been restored... what I really really really hate is that all books don't receive a single grading system. We have one grading system for restored books, one for unrestored, and now a third for conserved.

 

As I've stated before, I hate the very concept of "apparent" grade. It's ridiculous. If I can see color touch all over a book how can I "apparently" not see it? And for those that argue how can CGC be expected to know what a book was like before restoration... how can they not? If they can determine how much work was done on a book, then they presumably have a pretty good idea (maybe not exact, but close) of what it was beforehand. I can do it. Are people on here really claiming CGC can't?

 

But that's even still beside the point. They don't have to. To me, restoration is damage. Sometimes the damage is more aesthetically pleasing than the damage that existed before restoration, which is why it can be worth doing... but it's damage nonetheless. Restoration also has documented value... it cost to have it done, and to have it done well is expensive. That has to be weighed in as well.

 

So I have a nice untouched 8.0 book. I also have a similar-looking book, with a couple of small color touch dots on the spine. That book maybe should get a universal 7.0 (with a note explaining the color touch). A book with small Marvel chips filled in might get a 5.0, and one with extensive work might only get a 2.0 or 3.0. Sloppy work might get hammered severely, the same way any unsightly damage would.

 

This way a single number represents market desirability and reflects valuation in simple terms. Individuals can decide if they don't want a 7.0 because of color touch (even if at first glance it seems an 8.0), just like they decide now they don't want it if it has "cream to off-white pages".

 

As it is now, you'd better have at least a Masters in algebraic equations to determine if an "apparent" 7.0 with slight restoration is worth an unrestored 5.0 or an "amateur extensive" is calculated out to be a 2.5 or whatever. With a certain other company out there... I actually have no idea whether the grade they've assigned is an "apparent grade" or a "final grade"... and nobody I've asked seems to know?

 

Whether we like it or not... the CGC number does = monetary value. Books should be downgraded for damage... regardless of whether that damage has occured naturally or intentionally (I hate grades based on "thought police")... or whether new damage masks old damage (restoration).

 

One system. One number. Lots of notes. Period.

 

[Tri-Color Brian]

well said...

[bluechip]

Interesting discussion. A few points:

 

1. We tend to forget that there are many collectors out there who don't know the ways of CGC-world the way we do. To them, the purple label is a helpful distinguisher -- considerably more helpful than the additional label notes that several people have suggested. In the unlikely event that CGC were to convert purple labels to blue labels with more extensive notes, some unwary collectors would almost certainly find themselves buying former PLODs at inflated prices. Being burned that way could easily drive someone out of the hobby -- or at least out of collecting slabbed books.

 

 

3. If the stigma against PLODs were to diminish, there would be a negative effect on prices of blue label books ... unless the law of supply and demand were repealed in the interim.

 

 

There are many things wrong with the idea of a "Helpful distinguisher" -- first because it cuts both ways. Many many times I have seen books that were slabbed by a naive person and got a plod for something that is completely removable. The naive person is then told they have to sell it for a fraction of the value, and the person who buys it spends two minutes scraping off the color touch, reslabs it and sells it fo multiples. A very knowledgeable perspn once told me it's not about informing the novice any more than it is about helping informed people fleece the novice.

 

Secondly, it's not "distinguishing" something that is inarguable, universally agreed upon, etc. It;s distinguishing things based on the emotional response of some collectors and their desire to disincentivize people to mess with books and/or punish books that were messed with years ago. A proper distiinguishing label would be something that denotes silver age versus golden age -- by dates or first appearance or something like that. Something that is a fact, not an opinion, an emotion, or a supposition that something was done to a book with "bad intent."

 

You want distinguishers that help prevent a novice from buying something that is not worth as much as he might think? Just imagine how many books we could warn people about. Some on this board might say DCs should be give a warning label. Or anything published after 1980. Or how about a warning that says that 9.8 being offered at hundreds of dollars was published last month? Or that the first issue in the slab had a print run of 5 million? I never see anybody advocating for warning labels like that. Only for a warning label that purports to expose the thought process behind a couple dots of color touch.

 

And the idea that lack of PLOD labels will somehow hurt blue label values directly implies that the stigmatization of PLOD labels has excessively raised the value of blue label books in the first place. So the argument essentially is that values have been skewed and that the skewing needs to continue

 

For what it's worth I don't think blue labels would be hurtt. The people who seem to worry about that are the same people who say it's not the label color that impacts the value in the first place. Which is a contradiction. so find it interesting when people who are in favor of purple labels say on the one hand it's not the label that affects the value but then later say you c an't change it because it would affect the values in the other direction

 

 

 

[roulette44]

The purple label approach hurts the economics of the hobby, plain and simple. Some may not mind it, which is fine......but that doesn't change the point.

 

Comics continue to operate on an island --- where:

 

1) a small amount of resto = a massive drop in value (dot of color, small tear seal or staple reinforcement) from the comparable looking unrestored book. That doesn't make sense.

 

2) a frankenbook that has been taken from a 2.0 to an 8.0 with the potpourri of restoration techniques (and where 10%+ of the cover isn't even original) is only worth modestly less than the book in 1).

 

The optics of the purple label is much to blame because it isn't the people on this forum that represent the entire market. It's also about the others (who don't spend the time studying/learning......).

 

Now that we have an entity (CGC) that can review the book objectively and report and certify the findings (so any amateur can be confident in them), we should use the reporting of information to affect grade, not label color.

 

As for this action 2 - notwithstanding being the the owner of the previously highest graded copy, i'm thrilled to see it surface - what a GORGEOUS book!! I'm sure we'll see it reach a big number at auction and find it's way to a lucky new owner

 

Joey

[1ForChrist]

Comic looks nice,

 

A couple of questions...

 

1) Do most of these older comics get bout by someone's great-great grandfather and also does the original owner intentionally try to keep the comic in good condition?

 

2) Why don't everyone just wait until the very end of the bid date and then submit their amount so it doesn't jump up to thousands if possible?

 

3) Would comic connect sell the book if the above happened at say $5000 price if it hypothetically ended at that price?

[Jaydogrules]

The only real thing that the purple label does is save the people who aren't interested in restored books that extra click or two to look closer at the book when they scroll through listings. I personally appreciate not having to scrutinize a label in order to discern something as basic as whether or not there has been restoration, or, similarly, if there is a signature on the book. I also scroll right past yellow labels. So by the logic of many boardies posting on here I suppose we should also do away with yellow labels and count all signatures (verified or not) as "defects" as well.

 

No I think the current labeling system works just fine. I think this so-called "conserved" labeling is already the compromise that some have asked for, though I do believe that most collectors see it as restored anyway. I don't think it will bring buyers of blue label books into the auction. The same people who bid on this book will be the same people who don't mind restored comics. Trying to change minds on either side is pointless. Either you don't mind restored books or you do. The system CGC has in place is simple and convenient for both the casual buyer and the seasoned collector. Changing the label won't do anything to change the perception or the value of restored comics. Trying to "hide" a restored book in a blue label slab, if anything, would be a step backward when it comes to full transparency with regards to restoration that CGC has brought to the table, and it would dilute one of the main and best benefits of their service. Blue label stands for "Universal Grade". Purple for "Restored Grade". Regardless of one's opinion on restoration itself, it really cannot be disputed that these books are not the same and should not be treated the same and they should not be graded the same and therefore have no business being in the same type of slab for that reason.

 

As for CBCS, yes their grade for restored books is also an "apparent grade". (thumbs u

 

-J.

[tth2]

I've railed against the crack-out, press & flip culture, because each roll of the dice increases the risk of damaging fragile paper. If you're looking for a cause, there's one that's certainly worthy of your time.

I don`t know whether to laugh or cry at that statement.

 

You can do both, no one will mind. You're a sensitive guy, we get it.

 

Alternatively, you could pontificate about why the bump and flip aspect of our collecting culture is more graciously accepted than a progressive change of label color.

 

The duplicitous nature of condoning one while deriding the other eludes me.

 

You must be directing your comments at another tth2. No one has been more vehemently anti-pressing than me.

 

I`ve gone from being a big buyer of comics to becoming a net seller who now buys just a few books a year, thanks to the prevalence of cracking and pressing in this hobby.

[rodan57]

The negative reaction was cemented in place long before CGC started grading comics. Many of us developed a negative reaction to restored books back when dealers would not disclose work they knew to have been done. It made and makes perfect sensse to me and most other collectors who have zero interest in buying restored books.

 

CGC made a decision to make it as easy as pie to look at a slabbed book and know if it was a restored book.

 

Since then, the people complaining about the stigma have been restored book buyers, who have particular interests in some or all of the various restoration methods, and who like a great looking book and don't mind if it has had extensive work to make it beautiful. And these people feel there is a stigma that affects their values. Seems to me that that makes them cheaper to buy, which should be a good thing. And as we saw, in the early stigma days, many buyers got incredible bargains buying PLODs that have since rebounded in price.

 

Anyway, to each his own. I like seeing at a glance all books I have no interest in by the color of the label. But I also agree that more verbiage as to what was done to the books would be immensely helpful to any of you who are buyers of restored books. But not a fan of all blue labels.

 

Worth repeating.

[MasterChief]

I've railed against the crack-out, press & flip culture, because each roll of the dice increases the risk of damaging fragile paper. If you're looking for a cause, there's one that's certainly worthy of your time.

I don`t know whether to laugh or cry at that statement.

 

You can do both, no one will mind. You're a sensitive guy, we get it.

 

Alternatively, you could pontificate about why the bump and flip aspect of our collecting culture is more graciously accepted than a progressive change of label color.

 

The duplicitous nature of condoning one while deriding the other eludes me.

 

You must be directing your comments at another tth2. No one has been more vehemently anti-pressing than me.

 

That you have been, Tim.

 

And your voice of reason resonates with many collectors.

 

Those who publicly participate in the debate, and those who silently read. (thumbs u

 

 

 

[Cat-Man_America]

I've railed against the crack-out, press & flip culture, because each roll of the dice increases the risk of damaging fragile paper. If you're looking for a cause, there's one that's certainly worthy of your time.

I don`t know whether to laugh or cry at that statement.

 

You can do both, no one will mind. You're a sensitive guy, we get it.

 

Alternatively, you could pontificate about why the bump and flip aspect of our collecting culture is more graciously accepted than a progressive change of label color.

 

The duplicitous nature of condoning one while deriding the other eludes me.

 

You must be directing your comments at another tth2. No one has been more vehemently anti-pressing than me.

 

I`ve gone from being a big buyer of comics to becoming a net seller who now buys just a few books a year, thanks to the prevalence of cracking and pressing in this hobby.

 

Well aware of your anti-pressing stance. That's why I was "gently" trying to nudge the conversation in that direction, where we have more room for agreement.

 

 

 

That you have been, Tim.

 

And your voice of reason resonates with many collectors.

 

Those who publicly participate in the debate, and those who silently read. (thumbs u

 

 

 

 

Tim's voice has quite a range in which to resonate and reasoned is only part of it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

What a fun thread.

[ciorac]

The negative reaction was cemented in place long before CGC started grading comics. Many of us developed a negative reaction to restored books back when dealers would not disclose work they knew to have been done. It made and makes perfect sensse to me and most other collectors who have zero interest in buying restored books.

 

CGC made a decision to make it as easy as pie to look at a slabbed book and know if it was a restored book.

 

Since then, the people complaining about the stigma have been restored book buyers, who have particular interests in some or all of the various restoration methods, and who like a great looking book and don't mind if it has had extensive work to make it beautiful. And these people feel there is a stigma that affects their values. Seems to me that that makes them cheaper to buy, which should be a good thing. And as we saw, in the early stigma days, many buyers got incredible bargains buying PLODs that have since rebounded in price.

 

Anyway, to each his own. I like seeing at a glance all books I have no interest in by the color of the label. But I also agree that more verbiage as to what was done to the books would be immensely helpful to any of you who are buyers of restored books. But not a fan of all blue labels.

 

Worth repeating.

 

Some very salient points above to be sure. I collect some restored books, and I don't mind the purple label at all. I usually crack them out anyway, but not always. I do, however, appreciate the changes CGC made in the restoration scale. This was a needed change in how restored books are classified. In the prior scale, extensive covered far too broad an area of work.

 

So, all in all, I am very happy with the current labeling and information presented on restored books.

 

The conserved label, and what is included in that range, is somewhat of a head scratcher though. I do agree with the concept of conservation vs. restoration. But some of the items included, like cleaning, in my view aren't conservative measures.

[Aman619]

Yeah. It's clear that "conserving" comics ought to be encouraged given their long time appeal and the limits of untreated or unprotected cheap newsprint. Comics were cheap and throwaway when produced, but here we are 75 years later and they are incredibly valuable and in demand. And the demand looks to have staying power for many more years at least.

 

Anyway, the thought of conserving them is a serious concern worthy of encouragement. Problem is that most conservation treatments overlap and have included treatments that we have always considered restoration. And unlike other collectibles fields, in comics, books were too often restored to fool the collector as to the condition of the book. In the comics hobby, restored books are anathema to the wide majority.

 

But perhaps, with CGC influence, their labeling, if consistent and well thought out, can introduce conservation as a separate and positive designation, because there are comics that have ONLY undergone treatments to preserve them, and not to enhance their appearance for gain.

 

Trick will be to separate out the merely conserved books from the conserved and restored books. I'd guess though that historically, to date, the are probably only a handful of comics that were given ONLY an anti-aging serum. In my opinion, conserved labeled books should only grandfather in these candidates. And going forward CGC should list the chemicals and treatments it allows to be "conservation" and not "restoration." So it is clear to collectors and those who will be paid to do the work.

 

Of course, it's not that simple. Now that CGC allows many treatments most of us still consider restoration, like pressing, dry cleaning, etc etc , I guess a book can have many improvements to its appearance PLUS a particular chemical bath etc to preserve the paper, and make it into a safe Conserved label and avoid a Restored designation.

 

Assuming these conservation methods and chemicals really will preserve the comics lifespan before they fall apart someday, I think we could live with the complexity. But it may not even matter... While I believe in the science of it, at the same time I don't see a well protected valuable comic ever falling apart in a collection any time before mass flooding or nuclear war makes the need to preserve them mere folly.

 

But, like chicken soup, I guess "it couldn't hoit!"

[Bookery]

The system CGC has in place is simple and convenient for both the casual buyer and the seasoned collector. -J.

 

Jaydogrules make a funny.

 

 

By my calculations, not counting signature series, CGC now has well over 400 different grades it can assign a book. Each of these grades comes with a secret unpublished formula which must be used to calculate its potential value... an 8.0 blue is not an 8.0 conserved is not an 8.0a3 is not an 8.0b2 and on and on.

What fun!

 

[shameless plug--- as part of Bookery's continuing customer service, we now offer a slide rule and amoritization booklet with every comic purchase!]

 

 

[rjpb]

The system CGC has in place is simple and convenient for both the casual buyer and the seasoned collector. -J.

 

Jaydogrules make a funny.

 

 

By my calculations, not counting signature series, CGC now has well over 400 different grades it can assign a book. Each of these grades comes with a secret unpublished formula which must be used to calculate its potential value... an 8.0 blue is not an 8.0 conserved is not an 8.0a3 is not an 8.0b2 and on and on.

What fun!

 

[shameless plug--- as part of Bookery's continuing customer service, we now offer a slide rule and amoritization booklet with every comic purchase!]

 

 

While I appreciate CGCs desire to further clarify with the conserved category and the expanded restoration subgrades, I have to agree that along with the broad criteria for Qualified grades, it's probably more confusing than anything to the average collector. Regardless of label color, I see it as resulting in many buyers feeling less not more confident in valuing restored books. GPA will pretty much become useless for these books as the odds will be thin that another copy has sold with the same grade and subgrade for comparison.

[Aman619]

Collecting comics has always been pretty complex. No different now.