SPIDER-MAN: HOMECOMING starring Tom Holland (7/28/17) 3 3

[Comicopolis]

[Logan510]

 

I liked Gandhi in Species.

[miraclemet]

[

quote=Hulksdaddy1]

Well put.

 

And I don't buy the "changes for the sake of changes" argument, particularly as we transition to a) a different era than that one in which Stan Lee, Jack Kirby & others were creating, and b) to a different medium.

 

"Fidelity to the source material" is BS:

 

Spider-Man's organic web-shooters in the Raimi trilogy were the same sort of "needless change" that ended up streamlining the story a bit (and its believability -- ie., harder for me to believe that Peter Parker could invent them himself than inherit the power from the spider bite -- same reason I defend the Disney retcon that he inherits the tech from Tony Stark).

 

Watchmen was _vastly_ improved by removing the idiotic squid.

 

Catwoman (as another example) was a mess movie that had precisely zero to do with Halle Berry's being cast in the role.

 

Back to my first point -- if the Marvel Universe were created today, it would have _far_ more diversity than it did when it was created in the pre-Civil Rights era. Because the country is different now.

 

Folks are free to think otherwise, but I hope they are aware of the extent to which such knee-jerk reactions against race-blind casting decisions (be they PC or not) makes them sound like nothing but racists.

 

This is wildly_fanciful_statement of the highest order.

 

Oh Really?

 

See James Gunn's defense of Zendaya's casting from his Facebook post a few days back:

 

 

James Gunn

August 19 at 2:40pm ·

 

"People get upset when something they consider intrinsic to a comic book character changes when adapted for a film. I get this. There are movies I dislike because I think there's a basic misunderstanding of the story or the character when the comic is transferred to film (I still hate how in the first Batman movie the Joker was revealed as the murderer of Bruce Wayne's parents, for instance.)

 

That said, I do not believe a character is the color of his or her skin. When Michael B Jordan was cast as Johnny Storm I didn't understand the uproar. The primary characteristic of Johnny was not, to me, that he was white, or that he had blonde hair, but that he was a fiery, funny, big-mouthed braggart of a hero. I was happy that he was going to be played by one of the finest and most charming young actors out there.

 

Yesterday, a rumor broke out that the character of Mary Jane was being played by a young black woman, Zendaya, and all hell broke out on the Internet (again). I tweeted that if people find themselves complaining about Mary Jane's ethnicity they have lives that are too good. (For those of you who think this means I'm confirming that Zendaya IS playing MJ, realize that although I've read the Spidey -script, and I've met the actress in question, I have no idea what her role is.

 

There's a good chance someone told me at one time or another, but, if so, I can't remember. I'm going to find out when I go into Marvel this afternoon, but I feel free to speak until that time because it's about the concept about a black woman playing Mary Jane, not the actuality or hypothesis of it.)

 

I got a thousand or so responses to my tweet. Most of them were positive. Some folks disagreed - they thought the character should look like what she looks like in the comics - but were thoughtful. And a handful were flat out racist.

 

I can't respond to the racists - I'm not ever going to change their minds. But for the thoughtful majority of you out there:

 

For me, if a character's primary attribute - the thing that makes them iconic - is the color of their skin, or their hair color, frankly, that character is shallow and sucks. For me, what makes MJ MJ is her alpha female playfulness, and if the actress captures that, then she'll work. And, for the record, I think Zendaya even matches what I think of as MJ's primary physical characteristics - she's a tall, thin model - much more so than actresses have in the past.

 

Whatever the case, if we're going to continue to make movies based on the almost all white heroes and supporting characters from the comics of the last century, we're going to have to get used to them being more reflective of our diverse present world. Perhaps we can be open to the idea that, although someone may not initially match how we personally conceive a character, we can be - and often are - happily surprised."

 

Gunn has his opinion, which IMO is also wildly_fanciful_statement.

 

If you made a remake of Shaft, and cast a white guy as the lead, Gunn would be talking out the other side of his .

 

I can't speak for Gunn, but I would think that Shaft's primary attribute is much more connected to his race than Mary Jane's. It was called blacksploitation after all.

 

Gunn's quote: "That said, I do not believe a character is the color of his or her skin."

 

And to your point, that's the hypocrisy. Whenever it is brought up about changing a black character to white, the answer is always the same: being black is integral to who that character is. You can change a white character to black because, well, being white doesn't matter to the character. Now it's just "as long as the performance is good."

 

I don't believe that, it's insulting to me as a white person, and it's racist.

 

The characters they're color washing in this Spidey movie are characters I've read for 40 years. I've SEEN for 40 years on the pages of my comics. I want them to look as close as they can to those characters, so I can see them come to life. Same as we all want to see the classic costumes on the big screen. Outside of Peter Parker, none of those people will spark recognition in me. They will not be the characters I've read and loved for decades.

 

That said, I know I'm not in anyone's target audience anymore for this kind of thing, and they couldn't care less. But, I can complain on the interwebs if I want, and not give them my money.

 

over!

 

 

 

Hulksdaddy, you've pointed out a contradiction for sure in what was said...I think though what is implied when some says "being black is integral" isn't about the color of their skin, but about the experience of being black in america.. but it becomes a shorthand of "being black"

 

Luke Cage. Could be turned into a white character, but part of Luke Cage's character is his experience as a minority, in a poor neighborhood. You could probably transpose him to another minority that has a history of being considered "other" or "lesser" and it would still mostly work. It's not the color of his skin (surface attribute) but rather the impact of his ethnicity on the character that matters...

 

I think that's what is meant when someone says "being black is integral"

 

I asked myself the question you posed, what white characters must be white? Johnny Storm as an african american Michael B Jordan didnt loose any of his Torchy-ness. But a few characters would, or at least being cast as a minority/person of color would complicate the character...

 

Captain America/Steve Rogers (WWII origin) By being tied to the 1940s, and his role as a WWII icon, making Steve Rogers a minority creates a ton of complexity that would have to either be ignored (dumb) or addressed (requiring a lot of huge leaps in logic to rationalize the acceptance of an American Icon being a second class citizen). An all modern Cap with a modern origin might work, maybe, but I think he would have to deal with the same issue my next person has to deal with.

 

Superman. Similar to Steve Rogers the "American Icon" status is hard to map onto a person of color with the fact that there's still parts of the country (on which DC's America is based) that have trouble with the president being a person of color, so I have trouble imagining that they'd all get behind a Superman of color (we're talking about the fictional America here of DC Comics).

 

more thought later, but wanted to get some stuff down on paper

[Unca Ben]

I can understand where some folks want to see the comic characters they love portrayed accurately to the comic books when they appear on screen.

I don't think it's racist, or anything like that, to disagree with casting choices that change the race or ethnicity to something other than what's in the books.

Then there are folks who don't mind if changes like that are made, as long as the actors can play the role well.

 

For the most part, I'm in the latter camp.

 

Hollywood has a history of casting white actors, even in nonwhite character roles.

Of course that's been changing, and what we're now seeing is skin color becoming less of a factor in casting.

Some folks won't like it, some will, and eventually more and more won't even notice (for the most part).

 

 

 

I do think that in discussions like this the term 'racist' is thrown back and forth like a mudball which has the unfortunate result in diluting the concept, especially in instances when it really needs to be applied.

I grew up in a time & place of real racism; it was prejudice & bias and it was institutional.

I do think most people these days (if they look hard enough and have the courage to admit it) have some form of simple prejudice - certain biases and prejudices in relation to skin color - and that doesn't mean that we are the lowest of the low or completely ignorant.

Personal biases are just part of being human. I know I got 'em, and some are worse than others, and some do more damage than others, and I get to work on those.

 

But I do believe there's a big difference between institutional racism (and being a racist) & personal biases.

 

 

 

(gets off soapbox - sorry about that, folks!)

 

[Hulksdaddy1]

[

quote=Hulksdaddy1]

Well put.

 

And I don't buy the "changes for the sake of changes" argument, particularly as we transition to a) a different era than that one in which Stan Lee, Jack Kirby & others were creating, and b) to a different medium.

 

"Fidelity to the source material" is BS:

 

Spider-Man's organic web-shooters in the Raimi trilogy were the same sort of "needless change" that ended up streamlining the story a bit (and its believability -- ie., harder for me to believe that Peter Parker could invent them himself than inherit the power from the spider bite -- same reason I defend the Disney retcon that he inherits the tech from Tony Stark).

 

Watchmen was _vastly_ improved by removing the idiotic squid.

 

Catwoman (as another example) was a mess movie that had precisely zero to do with Halle Berry's being cast in the role.

 

Back to my first point -- if the Marvel Universe were created today, it would have _far_ more diversity than it did when it was created in the pre-Civil Rights era. Because the country is different now.

 

Folks are free to think otherwise, but I hope they are aware of the extent to which such knee-jerk reactions against race-blind casting decisions (be they PC or not) makes them sound like nothing but racists.

 

This is wildly_fanciful_statement of the highest order.

 

Oh Really?

 

See James Gunn's defense of Zendaya's casting from his Facebook post a few days back:

 

 

James Gunn

August 19 at 2:40pm ·

 

"People get upset when something they consider intrinsic to a comic book character changes when adapted for a film. I get this. There are movies I dislike because I think there's a basic misunderstanding of the story or the character when the comic is transferred to film (I still hate how in the first Batman movie the Joker was revealed as the murderer of Bruce Wayne's parents, for instance.)

 

That said, I do not believe a character is the color of his or her skin. When Michael B Jordan was cast as Johnny Storm I didn't understand the uproar. The primary characteristic of Johnny was not, to me, that he was white, or that he had blonde hair, but that he was a fiery, funny, big-mouthed braggart of a hero. I was happy that he was going to be played by one of the finest and most charming young actors out there.

 

Yesterday, a rumor broke out that the character of Mary Jane was being played by a young black woman, Zendaya, and all hell broke out on the Internet (again). I tweeted that if people find themselves complaining about Mary Jane's ethnicity they have lives that are too good. (For those of you who think this means I'm confirming that Zendaya IS playing MJ, realize that although I've read the Spidey -script, and I've met the actress in question, I have no idea what her role is.

 

There's a good chance someone told me at one time or another, but, if so, I can't remember. I'm going to find out when I go into Marvel this afternoon, but I feel free to speak until that time because it's about the concept about a black woman playing Mary Jane, not the actuality or hypothesis of it.)

 

I got a thousand or so responses to my tweet. Most of them were positive. Some folks disagreed - they thought the character should look like what she looks like in the comics - but were thoughtful. And a handful were flat out racist.

 

I can't respond to the racists - I'm not ever going to change their minds. But for the thoughtful majority of you out there:

 

For me, if a character's primary attribute - the thing that makes them iconic - is the color of their skin, or their hair color, frankly, that character is shallow and sucks. For me, what makes MJ MJ is her alpha female playfulness, and if the actress captures that, then she'll work. And, for the record, I think Zendaya even matches what I think of as MJ's primary physical characteristics - she's a tall, thin model - much more so than actresses have in the past.

 

Whatever the case, if we're going to continue to make movies based on the almost all white heroes and supporting characters from the comics of the last century, we're going to have to get used to them being more reflective of our diverse present world. Perhaps we can be open to the idea that, although someone may not initially match how we personally conceive a character, we can be - and often are - happily surprised."

 

Gunn has his opinion, which IMO is also wildly_fanciful_statement.

 

If you made a remake of Shaft, and cast a white guy as the lead, Gunn would be talking out the other side of his .

 

I can't speak for Gunn, but I would think that Shaft's primary attribute is much more connected to his race than Mary Jane's. It was called blacksploitation after all.

 

Gunn's quote: "That said, I do not believe a character is the color of his or her skin."

 

And to your point, that's the hypocrisy. Whenever it is brought up about changing a black character to white, the answer is always the same: being black is integral to who that character is. You can change a white character to black because, well, being white doesn't matter to the character. Now it's just "as long as the performance is good."

 

I don't believe that, it's insulting to me as a white person, and it's racist.

 

The characters they're color washing in this Spidey movie are characters I've read for 40 years. I've SEEN for 40 years on the pages of my comics. I want them to look as close as they can to those characters, so I can see them come to life. Same as we all want to see the classic costumes on the big screen. Outside of Peter Parker, none of those people will spark recognition in me. They will not be the characters I've read and loved for decades.

 

That said, I know I'm not in anyone's target audience anymore for this kind of thing, and they couldn't care less. But, I can complain on the interwebs if I want, and not give them my money.

 

over!

 

 

 

Hulksdaddy, you've pointed out a contradiction for sure in what was said...I think though what is implied when some says "being black is integral" isn't about the color of their skin, but about the experience of being black in america.. but it becomes a shorthand of "being black"

 

Luke Cage. Could be turned into a white character, but part of Luke Cage's character is his experience as a minority, in a poor neighborhood. You could probably transpose him to another minority that has a history of being considered "other" or "lesser" and it would still mostly work. It's not the color of his skin (surface attribute) but rather the impact of his ethnicity on the character that matters...

 

I think that's what is meant when someone says "being black is integral"

 

I asked myself the question you posed, what white characters must be white? Johnny Storm as an african american Michael B Jordan didnt loose any of his Torchy-ness. But a few characters would, or at least being cast as a minority/person of color would complicate the character...

 

Captain America/Steve Rogers (WWII origin) By being tied to the 1940s, and his role as a WWII icon, making Steve Rogers a minority creates a ton of complexity that would have to either be ignored (dumb) or addressed (requiring a lot of huge leaps in logic to rationalize the acceptance of an American Icon being a second class citizen). An all modern Cap with a modern origin might work, maybe, but I think he would have to deal with the same issue my next person has to deal with.

 

Superman. Similar to Steve Rogers the "American Icon" status is hard to map onto a person of color with the fact that there's still parts of the country (on which DC's America is based) that have trouble with the president being a person of color, so I have trouble imagining that they'd all get behind a Superman of color (we're talking about the fictional America here of DC Comics).

 

more thought later, but wanted to get some stuff down on paper

 

 

I understand what you're saying, and it's certainly the way a lot of people feel, but I just don't buy it. For example, by the reasoning you gave, Black Panther could easily be cast as a white guy, or Asian, or Hispanic etc. He didn't share any of the American experience of being black, being part of the majority in Wakanda, and royalty to boot. Change the location of Wakanda, and poof!, no problem. Of course, there would be a problem, from the same people that say that the race doesn't matter, it's the performance that counts. Until it does. I'm looking at you, Gunn.

 

I would be as vehemently opposed to that as any other. Characters onscreen should look like the characters they're portraying, especially in a medium that's so visually based, like comics.

 

I get that many don't feel that way, until they DO feel that way. That's the hypocrisy I can't stand.

 

 

[Bosco685]

Jon Watts Shares Spider-Man: Homecoming Set Video

 

On Saturday, Spider-Man: Homecoming director Jon Watts has shared a new set video, showing Tom Holland filming a scene. In it, we see Peter Parker sitting on a wooden block in the middle of a wall-to-wall green screen set; however, the most interesting aspect of the scene is that a shadowy figure -- either projected onto the wall or lighted from off-screen -- appears on the wall directly behind him.

 

 

Who the heck is that? Since the figure neither has wings like the Vulture nor moves like the Shocker would, I would assume it is Spider-Man. The figure certainly moves like the Wall-Crawler. And if it is, I would assume this scene being shot is either a dream sequence or an artsy Spidey/Peter promo for the film.

 

Meanwhile, Holland also posted a video yesterday. In that, Holland shows off some of the athletic and acrobatic moves that helped him land the superhero role.

 

Man, Tom Holland is quite the acrobat. They definitely picked the right actor!

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

Hollywood has a history of casting white actors, even in nonwhite character roles.

Of course that's been changing, and what we're now seeing is skin color becoming less of a factor in casting.

 

 

Anyone remember all the flak Ridley Scott's Exodus got a few years ago for casting Christian Bale, Joel Edgerton, and Sigourney Weaver in the lead roles? Frankly, I think it was partially deserved, and I'm not normally one who cares what race/ethnicity the actor is. Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan was another one. Of course, the flip side of that is if you cast an ethnically appropriate actor, but the character is a villain, then you run the risk of getting slammed for portraying that ethnicity in a poor light. Damned if you do.....

[Bosco685]

Is that Tom Holland showing off his humor?

 

[MetalPSI]

If it is, he has absolutely no sense of originality

[Bosco685]

[Bosco685]

Hannibal Buress Reveals Spider-Man: Homecoming Role

 

In a recent interview with The Breakfast Club, the actor and comedian spoke about his upcoming roles, which included Homecoming (via ComicBookMovie).

 

“In Spider-Man, I play a gym teacher,” he said. “I play one of the dumba** characters that don't realize he's Spider-Man. [My character thinks] ‘He’s Peter Parker. Oh man, this guy’s really athletic!’”

 

Buress will undoubtedly bring something worthwhile to the role, regardless of how naive his character is to Parker's true identity. Buress continues to tour around the world doing standup comedy and has also been featured on shows like 30 Rock and The Eric Andre Show.

[Bosco685]

[Bosco685]

Tom Holland is not only portraying a superhero on the big screen, but he does his best to be one in real life. A couple weeks ago, Tom Holland visited Atlanta's Children's Hospital in the hopes of making the lives of those kids a little brighter. While visiting, he also stopped by Ryan Seacrest Studios, in which he did an interview, giving a glimpse of a little behind the scenes. He talks about his dream of becoming the web-head, the numerous suits he wears.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

If this weren't Marvel producing this, I'd assume that the huge change in characters coupled with the ultra-lame Vulture being the villain was headed for an even bigger trainwreck than the past two Spideys were, ending up as something between ASM2 and the way Fantastic Four turned out. Even with Marvel at the helm, I'm still skeptical. I can see changing a character or two, particularly peripheral ones, but Flash Thompson as the little Guatemalan lobby boy from Grand Budapest Hotel (pic below)? Aunt May as a comparatively youngish legendary hottie actress? Mary Jane as biracial and 2-3 inches taller than Peter? Sheesh. I'm not going to be surprised now if Uncle Ben is played by Kevin Hart in flashbacks.

 

[Hulksdaddy1]

If this weren't Marvel producing this, I'd assume that the huge change in characters coupled with the ultra-lame Vulture being the villain was headed for an even bigger trainwreck than the past two Spideys were, ending up as something between ASM2 and the way Fantastic Four turned out. Even with Marvel at the helm, I'm still skeptical. I can see changing a character or two, particularly peripheral ones, but Flash Thompson as the little Guatemalan lobby boy from Grand Budapest Hotel (pic below)? Aunt May as a comparatively youngish legendary hottie actress? Mary Jane as biracial and 2-3 inches taller than Peter? Sheesh. I'm not going to be surprised now if Uncle Ben is played by Kevin Hart in flashbacks.

 

 

Agendas must be satisfied.

 

[kimik]

 

Badass? I thought that the photo was a shot of the girl who plays Catwoman from the Gotham set.

[revat]

 

Badass? I thought that the photo was a shot of the girl who plays Catwoman from the Gotham set.

 

to be fair, she's a badass.

[fantastic_four]

Kevin Feige has to eventually have a big critical bomb of the same order that seemingly every DC movie is these days. If I were betting on which one it will be among the films on slate that we've got much info about, I'd bet this one.

 

That's even assuming Marvel has the type of creative control over this film that we would assume they have over their own films. I haven't heard that they don't, but who knows, maybe there are Sony guys in the production meetings that are playing a major part in the process. Certainly this whole "screw the history, just young this thing up" smells like Sony to me. They tried to do a mini version of this in ASM and ASM2. And we haven't seen major character changes to the other Marvel properties of the order we're seeing here in Spidey.

[Gatsby77]

What's wrong with "young the thing up?"

 

If I recall correctly, Peter Parker was a high schooler when he got bitten by the spider.

 

Tom Holland is 20 years old - a bit long in the tooth for playing a high schooler.

 

Also, let's not forget that it's been so long since the original Spidey movie that that Flash Thompson

 

 

 

has grown into this:

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and screw Mary Jane -- he married Sofia Vergara!

 

 

[MediumLover]

The problems start with the movie's title.