HA Auction: 2015 August 27 - 29 Comics Signature Auction

[NicoV]

I don't get the argument here. The BP is calculated for you in the live auction app. You bid what you're willing to pay and the percentage that goes to the seller vs Heritage is irrelevant. BP is just another seller's fee in disguise.

Maybe in the US but not in Europe. Auction is really focused on the bid price (without BP), and auction houses don't even bother to calculate / display price with BP for you during the auction. They only do it when they want to communicate on a new world record . So in people's mind the artwork price is the one without BP, and if you ever want to sell this art back it's as if you had raised the price by 25-30% (yes on top of that we have really high BP) simply to break even.

[pemart1966]

I still don't get the mind set of the buyers commission as being a road block to a potential bidder? I'm not sure why it would ever cross a bidders mind or why they would bother factoring it into your bid. Just bid what your comfortable at and there you go.

 

If you have $100 and that's your bid, you'll owe $120 to Heritage. You don't have the extra $20 because you didn't allow for the Buyer's Premium. That's the reason.

 

Exactly right and if you add a few zeroes to the bid number in your example, that 20% starts becoming a significant number - at least to me anyway.

[pemart1966]

I don't get the argument here. The BP is calculated for you in the live auction app. You bid what you're willing to pay and the percentage that goes to the seller vs Heritage is irrelevant. BP is just another seller's fee in disguise.

Maybe in the US but not in Europe. Auction is really focused on the bid price (without BP), and auction houses don't even bother to calculate / display price with BP for you during the auction. They only do it when they want to communicate on a new world record . So in people's mind the artwork price is the one without BP, and if you ever want to sell this art back it's as if you had raised the price by 25-30% (yes on top of that we have really high BP) simply to break even.

 

All part of the auction psychology...

[Silver Surfer]

I'm not sure why it would ever cross a bidders mind or why they would bother factoring it into your bid. Just bid what your comfortable at and there you go.

 

Anyone whose max spending limit was $100 and who knew how to "factor into the bid" would never have bid $100 and been surprised he had to pay $120. He would never had bid more than $83 in the first place.

 

I made my comment because you wrote in the first quote that you didn't understand why people would bother factoring in the bidder's premium. Yet, in the second one, you say that they would factor it in. I am confused.

 

Don't worry about responding; I'll accept my confusion.

 

Well maybe if you are bidding with your eyes closed I can see the concern but they calculate the BP cost into your bid before you hit "confirm". Also, auctions usually run a week or two so that should give someone enough time to figure out what the cost of the BP would be on their max bid, problem solved.

[Claudio]

I think that the amount you manually enter into website has a stronger psychological and emotional impact than the final number that is calculated. No one is saying that heritage is not fully disclosing the buyer's premium, but I think they are using BP as a tool to maximize the final hammer. To say otherwise is completely disregarding the competitive nature of the bidders and their emotional responses. I believe that most people would be able to bid in a rational manner but not everyone and certainly not on every piece

[AKA Rick]

I still don't get the mind set of the buyers commission as being a road block to a potential bidder? I'm not sure why it would ever cross a bidders mind or why they would bother factoring it into your bid. Just bid what your comfortable at and there you go.

 

If you have $100 and that's your bid, you'll owe $120 to Heritage. You don't have the extra $20 because you didn't allow for the Buyer's Premium. That's the reason.

 

If your max is 100$ why not just bid it up to $83 and change. If you win you paid $100 if not you don't go higher.

That's what "factoring it into your bid" means. The good news is that Heritage will do the math for you.

 

In relation to that, that's why if all things are equal and a buyer is willing to pay $100, then that would be:

 

$83 via Heritage

$100 via Comic Link

 

As a seller, they're better off with Comic Link since they charge 10% commission, so that would net the seller $90 in their pocket after fees... so even if Heritage is at 0% commission on the $83, it's still a lower sales price collected by the seller, and even lower if there's a sellers commission.

 

But as we all know, the "x-factor" is whether one auction house can garner higher bids than the other.

[adamstrange]

I think that the amount you manually enter into website has a stronger psychological and emotional impact than the final number that is calculated. No one is saying that heritage is not fully disclosing the buyer's premium, but I think they are using BP as a tool to maximize the final hammer. To say otherwise is completely disregarding the competitive nature of the bidders and their emotional responses. I believe that most people would be able to bid in a rational manner but not everyone and certainly not on every piece

BPs were primarily created to increase the commission paid by the seller though there may be some salutary effect on sales prices. Every single time I have seen a comment about BP on the Boards it started as a complaint by a buyer, which I think bolsters the case for its effectiveness and ensures that it will continue to be used.

[AKA Rick]

Every single time I have seen a comment about BP on the Boards it started as a complaint by a buyer, which I think bolsters the case for its effectiveness and ensures that it will continue to be used.

 

It will only continue so long as it's supported by buyers spending money. When competition enters the marketplace, so auction options such as Comic Link, Comic Connect and eBay, and buyers flock to those sources to buy, and sellers find better opportunities to sell elsewhere, then, auction houses who use buyers premiums will be forced to abolish the practice of having a buyers premium. They may just roll it into the sellers premium and get it from the other end, but in a "the customer is always right" reaction, they'll need to bend to the will of the consumer.

 

[adamstrange]

Every single time I have seen a comment about BP on the Boards it started as a complaint by a buyer, which I think bolsters the case for its effectiveness and ensures that it will continue to be used.

 

It will only continue so long as it's supported by buyers spending money. When competition enters the marketplace, so auction options such as Comic Link, Comic Connect and eBay, and buyers flock to those sources to buy, and sellers find better opportunities to sell elsewhere, then, auction houses who use buyers premiums will be forced to abolish the practice of having a buyers premium. They may just roll it into the sellers premium and get it from the other end, but in a "the customer is always right" reaction, they'll need to bend to the will of the consumer.

Buyers have no reason to leave. I have never paid more for a book on Heritage than on any other site without buyer's premium because I factor it into my bid. 95+% of the bidding that occurs at Heritage is done electronically where Heritage clearly shows the total amount that you bid, every single time you place a bid. They could change their BP from 19.5% to 100% and it wouldn't cause me to spend a penny more.

 

The BP increases the Auction House's commission, which is born by the seller. It will continue as long as sellers don't realize that or as long as the venue charging the BP is able to offset it by higher overall prices realized.

[tth2]

When competition enters the marketplace, so auction options such as Comic Link, Comic Connect and eBay, and buyers flock to those sources to buy, and sellers find better opportunities to sell elsewhere, then, auction houses who use buyers premiums will be forced to abolish the practice of having a buyers premium. They may just roll it into the sellers premium and get it from the other end, but in a "the customer is always right" reaction, they'll need to bend to the will of the consumer.

In the beginning, there was eBay and Heritage. eBay was the dominant player, and yet Heritage made huge inroads despite charging a 19.5% BP.

 

Since then, Comiclink, Hake's, Pedigree and ComicConnect have entered the market, and Heritage still charges a 19.5% BP and is still going from strength to strength.

 

As this thread is in the OA forum, let's just limit the discussion to OA and compare only Heritage's OA offerings to Comiclink's and ComicConnect's OA offerings. A quick comparison shows that clearly there is no comparison, unless I'm missing all the $100K+ pieces that have been sold by Comiclink and ComicConnect in recent years.

 

So the market HAS spoken, particularly the sellers, and they all seem to be saying that they're fine with Heritage's pricing structure. I see no indications that Heritage is under pressure to give up its BP price structure anytime soon.

 

[tth2]

Every single time I have seen a comment about BP on the Boards it started as a complaint by a buyer, which I think bolsters the case for its effectiveness and ensures that it will continue to be used.

 

It will only continue so long as it's supported by buyers spending money. When competition enters the marketplace, so auction options such as Comic Link, Comic Connect and eBay, and buyers flock to those sources to buy, and sellers find better opportunities to sell elsewhere, then, auction houses who use buyers premiums will be forced to abolish the practice of having a buyers premium. They may just roll it into the sellers premium and get it from the other end, but in a "the customer is always right" reaction, they'll need to bend to the will of the consumer.

Buyers have no reason to leave. I have never paid more for a book on Heritage than on any other site without buyer's premium because I factor it into my bid. 95+% of the bidding that occurs at Heritage is done electronically where Heritage clearly shows the total amount that you bid, every single time you place a bid. They could change their BP from 19.5% to 100% and it wouldn't cause me to spend a penny more.

 

The BP increases the Auction House's commission, which is born by the seller. It will continue as long as sellers don't realize that or as long as the venue charging the BP is able to offset it by higher overall prices realized.

(thumbs u

[campued1010]

When competition enters the marketplace, so auction options such as Comic Link, Comic Connect and eBay, and buyers flock to those sources to buy, and sellers find better opportunities to sell elsewhere, then, auction houses who use buyers premiums will be forced to abolish the practice of having a buyers premium. They may just roll it into the sellers premium and get it from the other end, but in a "the customer is always right" reaction, they'll need to bend to the will of the consumer.

In the beginning, there was eBay and Heritage. eBay was the dominant player, and yet Heritage made huge inroads despite charging a 19.5% BP.

 

Since then, Comiclink, Hake's, Pedigree and ComicConnect have entered the market, and Heritage still charges a 19.5% BP and is still going from strength to strength.

 

As this thread is in the OA forum, let's just limit the discussion to OA and compare only Heritage's OA offerings to Comiclink's and ComicConnect's OA offerings. A quick comparison shows that clearly there is no comparison, unless I'm missing all the $100K+ pieces that have been sold by Comiclink and ComicConnect in recent years.

 

So the market HAS spoken, particularly the sellers, and they all seem to be saying that they're fine with Heritage's pricing structure. I see no indications that Heritage is under pressure to give up its BP price structure anytime soon.

 

+1000. Heritage is the place to sell art with other companies vying for the #2 spot, not to mention the international presence Heritage has. It may come as a shock to most of us, but the real money is oversees and not in North America…the times be changing.

[batman_fan]

When competition enters the marketplace, so auction options such as Comic Link, Comic Connect and eBay, and buyers flock to those sources to buy, and sellers find better opportunities to sell elsewhere, then, auction houses who use buyers premiums will be forced to abolish the practice of having a buyers premium. They may just roll it into the sellers premium and get it from the other end, but in a "the customer is always right" reaction, they'll need to bend to the will of the consumer.

In the beginning, there was eBay and Heritage. eBay was the dominant player, and yet Heritage made huge inroads despite charging a 19.5% BP.

 

Since then, Comiclink, Hake's, Pedigree and ComicConnect have entered the market, and Heritage still charges a 19.5% BP and is still going from strength to strength.

 

As this thread is in the OA forum, let's just limit the discussion to OA and compare only Heritage's OA offerings to Comiclink's and ComicConnect's OA offerings. A quick comparison shows that clearly there is no comparison, unless I'm missing all the $100K+ pieces that have been sold by Comiclink and ComicConnect in recent years.

 

So the market HAS spoken, particularly the sellers, and they all seem to be saying that they're fine with Heritage's pricing structure. I see no indications that Heritage is under pressure to give up its BP price structure anytime soon.

 

I think you are spot on Tim. Whether true or not, people with big ticket items to sell believe Heritage yields higher prices making the fees worthwhile on both sides of the table.

[Weird Paper]

When competition enters the marketplace, so auction options such as Comic Link, Comic Connect and eBay, and buyers flock to those sources to buy, and sellers find better opportunities to sell elsewhere, then, auction houses who use buyers premiums will be forced to abolish the practice of having a buyers premium. They may just roll it into the sellers premium and get it from the other end, but in a "the customer is always right" reaction, they'll need to bend to the will of the consumer.

In the beginning, there was eBay and Heritage. eBay was the dominant player, and yet Heritage made huge inroads despite charging a 19.5% BP.

 

Since then, Comiclink, Hake's, Pedigree and ComicConnect have entered the market, and Heritage still charges a 19.5% BP and is still going from strength to strength.

 

As this thread is in the OA forum, let's just limit the discussion to OA and compare only Heritage's OA offerings to Comiclink's and ComicConnect's OA offerings. A quick comparison shows that clearly there is no comparison, unless I'm missing all the $100K+ pieces that have been sold by Comiclink and ComicConnect in recent years.

 

So the market HAS spoken, particularly the sellers, and they all seem to be saying that they're fine with Heritage's pricing structure. I see no indications that Heritage is under pressure to give up its BP price structure anytime soon.

 

+1000. Heritage is the place to sell art with other companies vying for the #2 spot, not to mention the international presence Heritage has. It may come as a shock to most of us, but the real money is oversees and not in North America…the times be changing.

Heritage may be the venue that pulls the highest prices; but if somebody is willing to pay X for a piece, and X includes a buyer's premium and tax, then after the seller has paid his premium and the tax on capital gains for collectibles, he might net only 1/2X.

[tth2]

When competition enters the marketplace, so auction options such as Comic Link, Comic Connect and eBay, and buyers flock to those sources to buy, and sellers find better opportunities to sell elsewhere, then, auction houses who use buyers premiums will be forced to abolish the practice of having a buyers premium. They may just roll it into the sellers premium and get it from the other end, but in a "the customer is always right" reaction, they'll need to bend to the will of the consumer.

In the beginning, there was eBay and Heritage. eBay was the dominant player, and yet Heritage made huge inroads despite charging a 19.5% BP.

 

Since then, Comiclink, Hake's, Pedigree and ComicConnect have entered the market, and Heritage still charges a 19.5% BP and is still going from strength to strength.

 

As this thread is in the OA forum, let's just limit the discussion to OA and compare only Heritage's OA offerings to Comiclink's and ComicConnect's OA offerings. A quick comparison shows that clearly there is no comparison, unless I'm missing all the $100K+ pieces that have been sold by Comiclink and ComicConnect in recent years.

 

So the market HAS spoken, particularly the sellers, and they all seem to be saying that they're fine with Heritage's pricing structure. I see no indications that Heritage is under pressure to give up its BP price structure anytime soon.

 

+1000. Heritage is the place to sell art with other companies vying for the #2 spot, not to mention the international presence Heritage has. It may come as a shock to most of us, but the real money is oversees and not in North America…the times be changing.

Heritage may be the venue that pulls the highest prices; but if somebody is willing to pay X for a piece, and X includes a buyer's premium and tax, then after the seller has paid his premium and the tax on capital gains for collectibles, he might net only 1/2X.

Capital gains is going to be the same regardless of which auction site you sell your books on.

 

So the only calculation that matters for a seller is whether your net price on Hertiage will exceed your net price on one of the other sites. And remember that sellers with decent pieces for sale won`t pay full boat on Heritage.

[bluechip]

When competition enters the marketplace, so auction options such as Comic Link, Comic Connect and eBay, and buyers flock to those sources to buy, and sellers find better opportunities to sell elsewhere, then, auction houses who use buyers premiums will be forced to abolish the practice of having a buyers premium. They may just roll it into the sellers premium and get it from the other end, but in a "the customer is always right" reaction, they'll need to bend to the will of the consumer.

In the beginning, there was eBay and Heritage. eBay was the dominant player, and yet Heritage made huge inroads despite charging a 19.5% BP.

 

Since then, Comiclink, Hake's, Pedigree and ComicConnect have entered the market, and Heritage still charges a 19.5% BP and is still going from strength to strength.

 

As this thread is in the OA forum, let's just limit the discussion to OA and compare only Heritage's OA offerings to Comiclink's and ComicConnect's OA offerings. A quick comparison shows that clearly there is no comparison, unless I'm missing all the $100K+ pieces that have been sold by Comiclink and ComicConnect in recent years.

 

So the market HAS spoken, particularly the sellers, and they all seem to be saying that they're fine with Heritage's pricing structure. I see no indications that Heritage is under pressure to give up its BP price structure anytime soon.

 

+1000. Heritage is the place to sell art with other companies vying for the #2 spot, not to mention the international presence Heritage has. It may come as a shock to most of us, but the real money is oversees and not in North America…the times be changing.

Heritage may be the venue that pulls the highest prices; but if somebody is willing to pay X for a piece, and X includes a buyer's premium and tax, then after the seller has paid his premium and the tax on capital gains for collectibles, he might net only 1/2X.

 

 

Every time I pay those taxes I am reminded that it's above the rate of most wages and well below what billionaires pay on, well, almost anything. Mitt Romney admitted to paying only a third of the rate I am paying. And it gets me wondering why dealers and collectors and auction houses don't even try to lobby Congress for a better rate. Guys trying to get money to put kids through college pay 3X what billionaires pay (if they pay at all)?

 

[Weird Paper]

When competition enters the marketplace, so auction options such as Comic Link, Comic Connect and eBay, and buyers flock to those sources to buy, and sellers find better opportunities to sell elsewhere, then, auction houses who use buyers premiums will be forced to abolish the practice of having a buyers premium. They may just roll it into the sellers premium and get it from the other end, but in a "the customer is always right" reaction, they'll need to bend to the will of the consumer.

In the beginning, there was eBay and Heritage. eBay was the dominant player, and yet Heritage made huge inroads despite charging a 19.5% BP.

 

Since then, Comiclink, Hake's, Pedigree and ComicConnect have entered the market, and Heritage still charges a 19.5% BP and is still going from strength to strength.

 

As this thread is in the OA forum, let's just limit the discussion to OA and compare only Heritage's OA offerings to Comiclink's and ComicConnect's OA offerings. A quick comparison shows that clearly there is no comparison, unless I'm missing all the $100K+ pieces that have been sold by Comiclink and ComicConnect in recent years.

 

So the market HAS spoken, particularly the sellers, and they all seem to be saying that they're fine with Heritage's pricing structure. I see no indications that Heritage is under pressure to give up its BP price structure anytime soon.

 

+1000. Heritage is the place to sell art with other companies vying for the #2 spot, not to mention the international presence Heritage has. It may come as a shock to most of us, but the real money is oversees and not in North America…the times be changing.

Heritage may be the venue that pulls the highest prices; but if somebody is willing to pay X for a piece, and X includes a buyer's premium and tax, then after the seller has paid his premium and the tax on capital gains for collectibles, he might net only 1/2X.

 

 

Every time I pay those taxes I am reminded that it's above the rate of most wages and well below what billionaires pay on, well, almost anything. Mitt Romney admitted to paying only a third of the rate I am paying. And it gets me wondering why dealers and collectors and auction houses don't even try to lobby Congress for a better rate. Guys trying to get money to put kids through college pay 3X what billionaires pay (if they pay at all)?

[Rodey]

Am I the only person excited to see some of the Joe Jusko Marvel Masterpieces cards up for sale?

[vodou]

Every time I pay those taxes I am reminded that it's above the rate of most wages and well below what billionaires pay on, well, almost anything. Mitt Romney admitted to paying only a third of the rate I am paying. And it gets me wondering why dealers and collectors and auction houses don't even try to lobby Congress for a better rate. Guys trying to get money to put kids through college pay 3X what billionaires pay (if they pay at all)?

You should talk to an accountant. There ways to manage your tax liability, same as the billionaires do. You may also improve your collection and finances at the same time. An easy and obvious example is the old adage: hold the winners, sell the losers. Take the losses as soon as it's obvious you made a mistake (or were overzealous at the time of purchase!) You can use losses to offset gains but only $3000/yr max and the rest must be carried forward. If you organize as self-employed business you can let gains/losses net 100% against each other, take various business deductions, and the net income will be be taxed as ordinary income. But you'll also have to pay SSA taxes on that portion too. So the value in doing this depends greatly on personal circumstances.

 

There is also the grey area of like-kind transfers. I do not know if selling some slabbed comics and buying some art (or vice versa) with the proceeds has been tested as like-kind. But maybe? Art for art would be an easier case to make, but still could trigger an audit. Getting an accountant on board and signing your return is the way to go on all this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Like-kind_exchange

[jbud73]

Back to the art, I can't even stand to look at the Preview, its TOO much art I want overload.