Pressing

[Darthdiesel]

[esquirecomics]

There is going to have to be a line drawn somewhere. This applies to everything. For years dealers were selling restored color touched books as unrestored. Now, particularly with CGC, we know the books are restored. Did that impact the value of the unfortunate collector who bought and now possesses restored books? Yes it did. I don't see a major difference. The question still remains did the seller know the books were "restored"?

 

If they did know the books were pressed (or perhaps if they should have known, this depends), then there may be grounds for legal action even years later. Don't take this as an absolute, b/c there will be factors that impact the legal viability of any fraud claim. For example, unlike the color touched books which, as I understand it, were considered "restored" back even back in the 1980s if caught, I am not clear as to whether the same applies to pressing. But in some cases, and even perhaps many, there will be some very strong legal claims against certain dealers who are intentionally selling pressed books.

 

Now, back again to detectability, I say again that for certain books it will be absolutely 100% detectible that a book has been pressed, and that is with pedigree copies where the original grade was known. We should start where the evidence already exists and move forward from there.

 

So what would you do if someone came forth and proved that some of your high grade DC CGC graded books were pressed back in the late 80's. Would you devalue your entire collection even though you weren't absolutely sure shich books were pressed and which ones weren't? What I'm saying is that if a major dealer comes out and says they've been pressing books for the past 5 years, then every single purchase you and I have made from them will be scrutinized. Why should I put my entire collection under a microscope if maybe only a few of the books were pressed, and are still undetectable.

 

I just feel that since other forms of restoration can be detected, then we can send the collection to CGC and have them pick out the bad apples. However, with undetectable pressing, the entire collection would be called into suspicion just because it was purchased from one or two dealers that came clean with their practices. So would I now have to disclose which dealer I purchased my books from, even if I can't remember the details anymore?

 

Skybolt, the last thing I want is for those who innocently purchased books (collectors or dealers) that were pressed (or underwent any form of unacknowledged restoration) to pay the price, so to speak, due to the conduct of others.

 

However, talk of devaluation in dire terms is premature. The marketplace will determine the proper value of pressing. At this time I do not know what that value ratio is, though I would gather it will be something less than full guide (or whatever appropriate multiple would have otherwise applied). For some, at least as written on the boards, it may have no impact at all. Time will tell.

 

While I certainly do not condone or respect the practice of unacknowledged pressing, I do view it as probably the most minimal level of restoration that can be applied to a book and I would imagine the marketplace will therefore place it into perspective. [This last sentence is probably gramatically incorrect but I trust everyone understands the message].

 

I don't think anyone is expecting the owners of books to reveal who they purchased specific books from during the 1980s. I certainly would not disbelieve a seller who informed me they do not know the origin of a book they purchased 20 years ago. I doubt that many sellers who will be exposed as being prevalent unacknowledged pressers will have little black books that will become public ala Heidi Fleiss.

 

The fallout, I believe and hope, would primarily be on or against those dealers/sellers who previously practiced pressing without disclosing it (again, I raise the question of how pressing was viewed back in the 1970s-1990s during which time it was apparently known but never openly discussed). More importantly, it would hopefully put an end to the current practice, which is primarily what most of us appear to desire.

 

As far as the debate about owners coming "clean" on some potential concern regarding their books, I can only speak for myself on this one. I've done it twice so far on books worth $1,500 - $4,000. To me, if sufficient evidence exists to call something into question and I am attempting to sell the books to others, it is a matter of principle.

 

The driving issue of this whole debate is not the subject of restoration or even value, it is one of disclosure, credibility, trustworthiness, deceit, greed and potential fraud.

[esquirecomics]

Until *you* can come up with a way to *detect* it, stop whining about the fact that nobody else can.

 

IS pressing restoration, detectable or therwise? Of course it is. The book is being brought back to a previous state. Again, those slight curls that can be undone with a finger I do not consider restoration, but anything with heat, humidity, beyond-finger pressure or a combination of these targeting a fold, crease etc.? That is restoration.

 

 

Why isn't it restoration even if you do it with your fingernail?

You are still bringing it back to a previous state.

 

I don't have anything to gain one way or the other in this.

I don't buy HG books, and I don't sell any either.

But this whole debate still has me rolling my eyes.

 

Everyone wants to call it restoration, but they can't show where it has actually done anything to the paper itself.

They say it does, but no one has offered any proof.

When someone can show where pressing has done anything more than cramming too many books in a longbox and leaving them in a hot humid closet for a few years, then I will be convinced it is restoration.

Until then it is just acceleration of what could naturally occur.

 

It has been said time and time again. It is a difference between something naturally occurring and change artificially occurring. Look at all accepted definitions of the word "restoration". It unquestionably incorporates the "art" of artificial pressing.

 

Let me put it in very basic terms of what the difference is between artificial and natural. Do not people generally "unfavorably" comment upon an individual who developed a tan from a tanning salon, if that fact is known, particularly in comparison to someone who received a fantastic natural tan from sunlight? We typically view artificial changes, i.e., steroid use (hey, it only enhances or accelerates the natural growth of muscle!), less favorable than a similar change that is natural.

 

Edit: Now, this is not to say that I am claiming either tanning or steriod use is the same as "restoration". I am merely using these analogies to comment upon the generally perceived difference in our society between artificial and natural.

[PovertyRow]

Why isn't it restoration even if you do it with your fingernail?

 

It is a valid question. I have answered it before it doubt you have seen it in all the pressing threads so...

 

First - "finger" - not "fingernail" - a fingernail is the same as a burnisher.

 

Paper is flexible, not stiff (at least the comic book papers we are talking about.) It can bend, to a degree, with no damage to the fibers and, if over a short enough time, without the fibres taking a new, fixed "set". Such folds can be easily removed by simply rolling the (usually corner) between your fingers quite gently in the opposite direction. We are talking very gentle rolling here, not force.

 

Beyond that, pressure which may be combined with heat and/or humidity are required to retrain the fibers, or, beyond retraining, reshape the paper to more closely approximate the original shape, I consider restoration.

 

::edited because I forgot the last three words.

[Aman619]

Until *you* can come up with a way to *detect* it, stop whining about the fact that nobody else can.

 

IS pressing restoration, detectable or therwise? Of course it is. The book is being brought back to a previous state. Again, those slight curls that can be undone with a finger I do not consider restoration, but anything with heat, humidity, beyond-finger pressure or a combination of these targeting a fold, crease etc.? That is restoration.

 

 

Why isn't it restoration even if you do it with your fingernail?

You are still bringing it back to a previous state.

 

I don't have anything to gain one way or the other in this.

I don't buy HG books, and I don't sell any either.

But this whole debate still has me rolling my eyes.

 

Everyone wants to call it restoration, but they can't show where it has actually done anything to the paper itself.

They say it does, but no one has offered any proof.

When someone can show where pressing has done anything more than cramming too many books in a longbox and leaving them in a hot humid closet for a few years, then I will be convinced it is restoration.

Until then it is just acceleration of what could naturally occur.

 

go read ZeMans thread where he describes his own experiment with an iron to press out folds in his comic's covers. This wasnt placing a book under great weight for months...but rather targeted heat and pressure to eliminate specific damage to a books cover.

[The Brain]

There is going to have to be a line drawn somewhere. This applies to everything. For years dealers were selling restored color touched books as unrestored. Now, particularly with CGC, we know the books are restored. Did that impact the value of the unfortunate collector who bought and now possesses restored books? Yes it did. I don't see a major difference. The question still remains did the seller know the books were "restored"?

 

If they did know the books were pressed (or perhaps if they should have known, this depends), then there may be grounds for legal action even years later. Don't take this as an absolute, b/c there will be factors that impact the legal viability of any fraud claim. For example, unlike the color touched books which, as I understand it, were considered "restored" back even back in the 1980s if caught, I am not clear as to whether the same applies to pressing. But in some cases, and even perhaps many, there will be some very strong legal claims against certain dealers who are intentionally selling pressed books.

 

Now, back again to detectability, I say again that for certain books it will be absolutely 100% detectible that a book has been pressed, and that is with pedigree copies where the original grade was known. We should start where the evidence already exists and move forward from there.

 

So what would you do if someone came forth and proved that some of your high grade DC CGC graded books were pressed back in the late 80's. Would you devalue your entire collection even though you weren't absolutely sure shich books were pressed and which ones weren't? What I'm saying is that if a major dealer comes out and says they've been pressing books for the past 5 years, then every single purchase you and I have made from them will be scrutinized. Why should I put my entire collection under a microscope if maybe only a few of the books were pressed, and are still undetectable.

 

I just feel that since other forms of restoration can be detected, then we can send the collection to CGC and have them pick out the bad apples. However, with undetectable pressing, the entire collection would be called into suspicion just because it was purchased from one or two dealers that came clean with their practices. So would I now have to disclose which dealer I purchased my books from, even if I can't remember the details anymore?

 

Skybolt, the last thing I want is for those who innocently purchased books (collectors or dealers) that were pressed (or underwent any form of unacknowledged restoration) to pay the price, so to speak, due to the conduct of others.

 

However, talk of devaluation in dire terms is premature. The marketplace will determine the proper value of pressing. At this time I do not know what that value ratio is, though I would gather it will be something less than full guide (or whatever appropriate multiple would have otherwise applied). For some, at least as written on the boards, it may have no impact at all. Time will tell.

 

While I certainly do not condone or respect the practice of unacknowledged pressing, I do view it as probably the most minimal level of restoration that can be applied to a book and I would imagine the marketplace will therefore place it into perspective. [This last sentence is probably gramatically incorrect but I trust everyone understands the message].

 

I don't think anyone is expecting the owners of books to reveal who they purchased specific books from during the 1980s. I certainly would not disbelieve a seller who informed me they do not know the origin of a book they purchased 20 years ago. I doubt that many sellers who will be exposed as being prevalent unacknowledged pressers will have little black books that will become public ala Heidi Fleiss.

 

The fallout, I believe and hope, would primarily be on or against those dealers/sellers who previously practiced pressing without disclosing it (again, I raise the question of how pressing was viewed back in the 1970s-1990s during which time it was apparently known but never openly discussed). More importantly, it would hopefully put an end to the current practice, which is primarily what most of us appear to desire.

 

As far as the debate about owners coming "clean" on some potential concern regarding their books, I can only speak for myself on this one. I've done it twice so far on books worth $1,500 - $4,000. To me, if sufficient evidence exists to call something into question and I am attempting to sell the books to others, it is a matter of principle.

 

The driving issue of this whole debate is not the subject of restoration or even value, it is one of disclosure, credibility, trustworthiness, deceit, greed and potential fraud.

 

The driving issue of this whole debate is not the subject of restoration or even value, it is one of disclosure

 

credibility trustworthiness, deceit, greed and potential fraud.

 

YES......YES........YES..........YES.......YES.....

 

This is what NEEDS to start happening. Thank You for saying it here.

[PovertyRow]

When someone can show where pressing has done anything more than cramming too many books in a longbox and leaving them in a hot humid closet for a few years, then I will be convinced it is restoration. Until then it is just acceleration of what could naturally occur.

 

Whoops - just read that bit again. You are way off here. Heat, pressure and humidity can indeed bring the paper back to its previous shape. But TIME is a whole different thing. The paper composition only needs a very short press-time to do the job. But years in a hot humid closet? It can destroy a book. It is like comparing a brush with a flame to holding your hand over the same flame for minutes or longer. There is really no correlation between the two. Very different reactions take place as time goes by.

[Aman619]

oh, and peace in the world too, please!!!!

 

Does anyone here really expecy the honor system to suddenly replace the greed system everpresent in our hobby, and all aspects of life?? Even if we all try really hard???

[tay666]

When someone can show where pressing has done anything more than cramming too many books in a longbox and leaving them in a hot humid closet for a few years, then I will be convinced it is restoration. Until then it is just acceleration of what could naturally occur.

 

Whoops - just read that bit again. You are way off here. Heat, pressure and humidity can indeed bring the paper back to its previous shape. But TIME is a whole different thing. The paper composition only needs a very short press-time to do the job. But years in a hot humid closet? It can destroy a book. It is like comparing a brush with a flame to holding your hand over the same flame for minutes or longer. There is really no correlation between the two. Very different reactions take place as time goes by.

 

Really.

I've had my comics stored in the bottom of my bedroom closet for the past 10 years. We have no air conditioning temps in the summer flirt with 100 degrees and 96% humidity is quite common. Comics that were nice and white when I stored them, are still nice and white now. Pages are still supple. The only difference I have really noticed, is that the ones that had spine roll when I stored them, don't anymore.

I know they aren't in ideal conditions, but I figure that is better than in my damp basement.

[PovertyRow]

When someone can show where pressing has done anything more than cramming too many books in a longbox and leaving them in a hot humid closet for a few years, then I will be convinced it is restoration. Until then it is just acceleration of what could naturally occur.

 

Whoops - just read that bit again. You are way off here. Heat, pressure and humidity can indeed bring the paper back to its previous shape. But TIME is a whole different thing. The paper composition only needs a very short press-time to do the job. But years in a hot humid closet? It can destroy a book. It is like comparing a brush with a flame to holding your hand over the same flame for minutes or longer. There is really no correlation between the two. Very different reactions take place as time goes by.

 

Really.

I've had my comics stored in the bottom of my bedroom closet for the past 10 years. We have no air conditioning temps in the summer flirt with 100 degrees and 96% humidity is quite common. Comics that were nice and white when I stored them, are still nice and white now. Pages are still supple. The only difference I have really noticed, is that the ones that had spine roll when I stored them, don't anymore.

I know they aren't in ideal conditions, but I figure that is better than in my damp basement.

 

What are things like in winter, spring and fall? Would you be willing to take your most valuable comics and store them for years where the heat and humidity are always that high? Or recommend to other collectors they should store them that way?

[The Brain]

oh, and peace in the world too, please!!!!

 

Does anyone here really expecy the honor system to suddenly replace the greed system everpresent in our hobby, and all aspects of life?? Even if we all try really hard???

YES. Not every buyer nor seller is a slave to the $$$ It may not happen over-night, but

 

given time it would turn this society around. Think, I will tell all I know about the comics I sell, not for world peace,

 

but for PEACE OF MIND. Change is GOOD, GREED is Bad.That is unless YOU are of the camp that thinks,

 

what I DON'T tell will help me sell for more $$$$ ,because I like to lie, cheat and steal.

 

Give it try, unless you afraid to. It's only money.

[Aman619]

oh, and peace in the world too, please!!!!

 

Does anyone here really expecy the honor system to suddenly replace the greed system everpresent in our hobby, and all aspects of life?? Even if we all try really hard???

YES. Not every buyer nor seller is a slave to the $$$ It may not happen over-night, but

 

given time it would turn this society around. Think, I will tell all I know about the comics I sell, not for world peace,

 

but for PEACE OF MIND. Change is GOOD, GREED is Bad.That is unless YOU are of the camp that thinks,

 

what I DON'T tell will help me sell for more $$$$ ,because I like to lie, cheat and steal.

 

Give it try, unless you afraid to. It's only money.

 

hey Brain, Tinkerbelle is dying!! Think more happy thoughts quick!!

youre a sensible guy, so I just cannot believe your post is anything more than a wish and a prayer.... that hasnt a prayer of coming true anytime soon. sorry

[shrunkenhead]

oh, and peace in the world too, please!!!!

 

Does anyone here really expecy the honor system to suddenly replace the greed system everpresent in our hobby, and all aspects of life?? Even if we all try really hard???

 

Yes, the world we live in is rife with corruption, but I'm not sure about the logic here....everyone's a scumbag so why not be one too? That's not the way I want to live my life. If that puts me in the minority camp, so be it.

[Aman619]

I said nothing about MY actions, have I?? Because I diodnt take a pledge of Comics Honesty here as 2 others have done you question my motives? I only say that as many come on ehere to profess their intention toi be forthcoming going forward woudl be all the same who are not lying and cheating already!!! So what will have changed? THOSE who are profiting now will not take such a vow...

[The Brain]

oh, and peace in the world too, please!!!!

 

Does anyone here really expecy the honor system to suddenly replace the greed system everpresent in our hobby, and all aspects of life?? Even if we all try really hard???

YES. Not every buyer nor seller is a slave to the $$$ It may not happen over-night, but

 

given time it would turn this society around. Think, I will tell all I know about the comics I sell, not for world peace,

 

but for PEACE OF MIND. Change is GOOD, GREED is Bad.That is unless YOU are of the camp that thinks,

 

what I DON'T tell will help me sell for more $$$$ ,because I like to lie, cheat and steal.

 

Give it try, unless you afraid to. It's only money.

 

hey Brain, Tinkerbelle is dying!! Think more happy thoughts quick!!

youre a sensible guy, so I just cannot believe your post is anything more than a wish and a prayer.... that hasnt a prayer of coming true anytime soon. sorry

 

So. you have made your choice, I have made mine. I belive strongly in what I said. I am no fool, as it is clear to me

 

you will not, or can not see it any other way. Is it that you think me the fool for even trying?? I would rather live in

 

a world where IDEAS are not so easily put down, but given a chance to rise or fall over time. But hey, I collect

 

comicbooks, so maybe I don't know JACK about any thing.

[shrunkenhead]

Aman, I didn't call your own motives or actions into question at all. Just trying to understand where you're coming from, and why you feel like Brain's plea for dealer honesty is akin to clapping for tinkerbell. Yes, I do realize that a shocking percentage of the current comic-dealers plying their trade at cons and online are morally bankrupt. And you're right, those who refuse to take the oath of total disclosure will still continue to operate as before, but I think they might see a decrease in their profit margins in the years to come, as buyers of CGC comics become more savvy about this issue and start asking more of the right questions.

 

That's not to say that shady dealers will ever go away, but I'm not sure why we should resign ourselves to accepting corruption of the hobby as an unchangeable constant. If one dealer pledges to disclose any known pressing on books in his inventory, and the collecting community comes to realize that said individual's word is good, then buyers may start to ask other dealers if they can/will establish a similar policy. If they can't/won't, time to take the money elsewhere. Is that really such a hopelessy attainable ideal?

[The Brain]

THANK YOU!

[Aman619]

I collect comics too.. and that means getting down in the mud and pondscum to get them. It means dealing with those who think nothing about pressing books for reslabbing for profit. But wishing and hoping and confessing and pleading for them to stop is NOT going to make pressing go away as long as it cannot be detected.

 

Only 2 solutions can occur: A detection method for NDP. and 2) for all restorers to foreswear pressing and all dealers to then swear off doing it themselves, followed by collectors eager to take over.

 

 

I sound skeptical, dont I? Sorry. What you want is comparable to everyone stopping taking drugs, and drug dealers refusing to sell them anymore because its (gasp!!) WRONG!!!!

[The Brain]

I collect comics too.. and that means getting down in the mud and pondscum to get them. It means dealing with those who think nothing about pressing books for reslabbing for profit. But wishing and hoping and confessing and pleading for them to stop is NOT going to make pressing go away as long as it cannot be detected.

 

Only 2 solutions can occur: A detection method for NDP. and 2) for all restorers to foreswear pressing and all dealers to then swear off doing it themselves, followed by collectors eager to take over.

 

 

I sound skeptical, dont I? Sorry. What you want is comparable to everyone stopping taking drugs, and drug dealers refusing to sell them anymore because its (gasp!!) WRONG!!!!

 

NO IT IS NOT!!!!! You are leaving out one very important factor CHOICE.

[Aman619]

Aman, I didn't call your own motives or actions into question at all. Just trying to understand where you're coming from, and why you feel like Brain's plea for dealer honesty is akin to clapping for tinkerbell.

 

it seems a very apt analogy to me....

 

Yes, I do realize that a shocking percentage of the current comic-dealers plying their trade at cons and online are morally bankrupt. And you're right, those who refuse to take the oath of total disclosure will still continue to operate as before, but I think they might see a decrease in their profit margins in the years to come, as buyers of CGC comics become more savvy about this issue and start asking more of the right questions.

 

What questions? The problem is STILL the fact that CGC nor anyone else can detect the pressing. In the absense of proof, anyone can say anything, lie that they dodnt do the work, or lie that they didnt know about it.

 

That's not to say that shady dealers will ever go away, but I'm not sure why we should resign ourselves to accepting corruption of the hobby as an unchangeable constant. If one dealer pledges to disclose any known pressing on books in his inventory, and the collecting community comes to realize that said individual's word is good, then buyers may start to ask other dealers if they can/will establish a similar policy. If they can't/won't, time to take the money elsewhere. Is that really such a hopelessy attainable ideal?

 

But, as long as there are SOME dealers still getting the work done secretly, honest dealers will be at a disadvantage... How long do you see THAT lasting as they lose money to the "bad guys?"

 

Im truly sorry I sound like such a sourpuss for not believing that an honor system will prevail! But I seriously do think that anyome who does is being a bit naive. Good hearted, and pure... but very naive. Im curious what others will say in the morning when they chime in. If Im greatly outnumbered, Il\\ promics I'lll drink the Kool Aid too and stop being so negative. Okay?