Pressing

[PovertyRow]

Well we just will have 2 disagree.

 

U have your philosophy,..and I have mine.

 

Never said otherwise.

[The Brain]

Honestly,

 

I dont see this as unethical. YOU MAY NOT MANY DO.

 

CGC doesnt view it as restoration.WRONG THEY CAN'T ALWAYS TELL IF DONE OVER TIME OR BY MACHINE.

 

I see a good arbitrage opportunity in this 'loop-hole' . "DECEPTION".

 

Finding candidates for pressing,..and then 'fixing em up'. "ALTERNATION FOR PROFIT".

 

Isnt this what comics are all about,...? NO IT IS NOT (THIS IS WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.)

 

Finding good deal,..and makin some sweet trades ?THIS IS THE CLOSEST YOU GOTTEN IN ANY POST YET.

 

To me this just sounds like good ole' plain American Entrepreneurship.ONLY FOR THOSES IN THE SCHOOL OF

 

GREED.

 

 

And if the buyer doesnt realize it,..then,..no harm,...no foul.WRONG, NO MORE NON-DISCLOSED-PRESSING-FOR-

 

PROFIT!!

 

Its like cheatin on your wife,...if she doesnt find out,...is it really cheating ? OF COURSE IT IS, TRY IT AND FIND OUT!

[goldust40]

Brad,

 

I dont really see pressing as that unethical,...and since it doesnt alter the molecular structure,..I dont see it as restoration.

 

It DOES alter the molecular structure. Of course it does!! Does it do any short or long term damage? Only time will tell.

 

How does is alter the molecular structure?

 

During the process of heat assisted pressing, the paper becomes moistened so that it can be malleable, and therefore alterable back to its' original shape. Even if we exclude what occurs during the process, the paper will eventually dehydrate - this is a natural effect of saturation. The pressing also flattens and consequently diminishes the thickness of the book.

[DiceX]

[goldust40]

 

Point taken.

 

But it's been a slow night, I've been at the computer for the last three hours due to the Vault Auction ending, err, there was nothing on T.V., err. um.

 

It's a fair cop.

[Red Hook]

Well we just will have 2 disagree.

 

U have your philosophy,..and I have mine.

 

Quite right. And I guess my big beef at this point, since I'm pretty much resigned to the reality that the $$$ motivation to practice pressing will assure it's continuence, is the wish that it simply be disclosed.

 

I do have in fact, have a candidate for pressing among my books....a beautiful copy of Avengers 28 Pacific Coast that was graded a 9.4 and subsequently took some damage in the slab. I'd like to eventually have the SCS damage pressed out, simply to return it to it's original grade, and reslabbed so that it's not sliding around in the inner holder like it is now. When I do end up having this done, I'll let you'all know. Not looking for 9.6, just hoping to get it regraded a 9.4 with it's Pedigree status intact.

[esquirecomics]

Well, my simple question was intended to be just that and not reinvigorate an already discussed topic, though I find this topic of great importance.

 

Indeed, the responses to my post - for the most part - have been extremely informative, well thought out and absolutely contributed to the discussion.

 

The bottom line on pressing is becoming clearer, and I do believe there will come a time in the near future that it is either "officially" considered restoration or will be so shunned by the community that anyone who tries to intentionally pass off a pressed book as an unpressed book will find their reputation damaged.

 

The ability or inability to detect pressing or any form of potential restoration is an irrelevant factor in this equation. That is like saying oxygen doesn't exist because we can't see, touch or smell it.

 

The only relevance detection has to the debate is exactly what has been said recently in that many of those who seem to favor pressing as not being restoration are financially biased and - most likely - pressing books themselves or knowingly selling pressed books without disclosure. I have heard repeated allegations involving major dealers and undisclosed pressing. I do not yet know what is or is not true, but I have little doubt these individuals will find themselves exposed sooner or later and the consequences will likely be unfavorable to their businesses.

 

Those of you who wish to continue believing or arguing that pressing is not restoration, go right ahead and do so, but let us all know which of your books are pressed. Admit it. Disclose it. What's the harm?

[esquirecomics]

As a matter of fact, if anyone believes they have credible evidence, whether this be in the form of specific comic books, written statements or even verbal remarks, that could be used to prove that any seller (whether that be a full-time, part-time or occasional dealer) is knowingly selling pressed books without disclosure, or pressing books themselves for others to be sold and is willing to go public, then either e-mail or PM me.

 

If I find the evidence credible and recommend the information be posted and the alleged seller sues for defamation, I will represent the poster on a pro bono basis (i.e., free of charge).

[DiceX]

I just burped, and puked up a little, then swallowed it back down.

BLECH!

Am I the only person that's ever done that?

[VintageComics]

I just burped, and puked up a little, then swallowed it back down.

BLECH!

Am I the only person that's ever done that?

get any on 'ya?

[skybolt]

Well, my simple question was intended to be just that and not reinvigorate an already discussed topic, though I find this topic of great importance.

 

Indeed, the responses to my post - for the most part - have been extremely informative, well thought out and absolutely contributed to the discussion.

 

The bottom line on pressing is becoming clearer, and I do believe there will come a time in the near future that it is either "officially" considered restoration or will be so shunned by the community that anyone who tries to intentionally pass off a pressed book as an unpressed book will find their reputation damaged.

 

The ability or inability to detect pressing or any form of potential restoration is an irrelevant factor in this equation. That is like saying oxygen doesn't exist because we can't see, touch or smell it.

 

The only relevance detection has to the debate is exactly what has been said recently in that many of those who seem to favor pressing as not being restoration are financially biased and - most likely - pressing books themselves or knowingly selling pressed books without disclosure. I have heard repeated allegations involving major dealers and undisclosed pressing. I do not yet know what is or is not true, but I have little doubt these individuals will find themselves exposed sooner or later and the consequences will likely be unfavorable to their businesses.

 

Those of you who wish to continue believing or arguing that pressing is not restoration, go right ahead and do so, but let us all know which of your books are pressed. Admit it. Disclose it. What's the harm?

 

I'm against pressing, and always will be, but we have to be realistic here. If a major dealer all of a sudden comes out and says that for the past 5 years they've been selling pressed books to their clients, and that pressing is considered as restoration, what happens then. So all of sudden I'm stuck with about $30,000 worth of comics that could have been pressed because they were purchased from a specific dealer who just came clean. Now I'm stuck in a dilemma.... do I come out and say "hey guys I paid premium for all these books, and even though pressing isn't detectable, I just wanted to let you know that my books are probably restored and have lost 80% of their worth". Why should I be the fall guy for someone elses error in judgement. Now don't get me wrong, if the restoration is detectable such as color touch, trimming, spine reinforcement, etc., I'll be glad to share that information with everyone else (even if I take a loss). However, for something that's not detectable, it just doesn't make sense. Call me a liar or crazy, but I'm being honest with my true feelings here.

[DiceX]

Well, my simple question was intended to be just that and not reinvigorate an already discussed topic, though I find this topic of great importance.

 

Indeed, the responses to my post - for the most part - have been extremely informative, well thought out and absolutely contributed to the discussion.

 

The bottom line on pressing is becoming clearer, and I do believe there will come a time in the near future that it is either "officially" considered restoration or will be so shunned by the community that anyone who tries to intentionally pass off a pressed book as an unpressed book will find their reputation damaged.

 

The ability or inability to detect pressing or any form of potential restoration is an irrelevant factor in this equation. That is like saying oxygen doesn't exist because we can't see, touch or smell it.

 

The only relevance detection has to the debate is exactly what has been said recently in that many of those who seem to favor pressing as not being restoration are financially biased and - most likely - pressing books themselves or knowingly selling pressed books without disclosure. I have heard repeated allegations involving major dealers and undisclosed pressing. I do not yet know what is or is not true, but I have little doubt these individuals will find themselves exposed sooner or later and the consequences will likely be unfavorable to their businesses.

 

Those of you who wish to continue believing or arguing that pressing is not restoration, go right ahead and do so, but let us all know which of your books are pressed. Admit it. Disclose it. What's the harm?

 

I'm against pressing, and always will be, but we have to be realistic here. If a major dealer all of a sudden comes out and says that for the past 5 years they've been selling pressed books to their clients, and that pressing is considered as restoration, what happens then. So all of sudden I'm stuck with about $30,000 worth of comics that could have been pressed because they were purchased from a specific dealer who just came clean. Now I'm stuck in a dilemma.... do I come out and say "hey guys I paid premium for all these books, and even though pressing isn't detectable, I just wanted to let you know that my books are probably restored and have lost 80% of their worth". Why should I be the fall guy for someone elses error in judgement. Now don't get me wrong, if the restoration is detectable such as color touch, trimming, spine reinforcement, etc., I'll be glad to share that information with everyone else (even if I take a loss). However, for something that's not detectable, it just doesn't make sense. Call me a liar or crazy, but I'm being honest with my true feelings here.

 

DING DING DING!

We have a winner!

Some others that think just because they've never pressed a book, they've never *sold* a pressed book and are living in a dream world.

You can be disillusioned all you want, but it doesn't change the world we live in.

Until *you* can come up with a way to *detect* it, stop whining about the fact that nobody else can.

 

You guys slay me by crying about pressed books.

Shut your hole and come up with a way to detect it.

[esquirecomics]

There is going to have to be a line drawn somewhere. This applies to everything. For years dealers were selling restored color touched books as unrestored. Now, particularly with CGC, we know the books are restored. Did that impact the value of the unfortunate collector who bought and now possesses restored books? Yes it did. I don't see a major difference. The question still remains did the seller know the books were "restored"?

 

If they did know the books were pressed (or perhaps if they should have known, this depends), then there may be grounds for legal action even years later. Don't take this as an absolute, b/c there will be factors that impact the legal viability of any fraud claim. For example, unlike the color touched books which, as I understand it, were considered "restored" back even back in the 1980s if caught, I am not clear as to whether the same applies to pressing. But in some cases, and even perhaps many, there will be some very strong legal claims against certain dealers who are intentionally selling pressed books.

 

Now, back again to detectability, I say again that for certain books it will be absolutely 100% detectible that a book has been pressed, and that is with pedigree copies where the original grade was known. We should start where the evidence already exists and move forward from there.

[DESTRO-migration]

This discussion is truly hysterical. Only comic book people could think this one up. I mean it,...Dice X,...I agree with ya,....these people are simply revealing their neurosis. Get help,..FAST !!!!!

[PedigreeMan]

DING DING DING!

We have a winner!

Some others that think just because they've never pressed a book, they've never *sold* a pressed book and are living in a dream world.

You can be disillusioned all you want, but it doesn't change the world we live in.

Until *you* can come up with a way to *detect* it, stop whining about the fact that nobody else can.

 

You guys slay me by crying about pressed books.

Shut your hole and come up with a way to detect it.

 

Screw what's come before.

 

You're correct that until a bona fide method for detecting pressing after the fact is established, anyone who sells a book they didn't know had been pressed can be labelled a hypocrite. Should they be? I don't see how, but play that game if you want.

 

But just because there's a whole slew of books with undisclosed pressing out there now doesn't mean that every book that's sent off from now on has to be sold undisclosed.

 

Ya gotta start somewhere. I, for one, applaud dealers like Quality and Esquire who have chosen to take the full disclosure route.

 

Like so many have said before, if no one cares about it, why hide it?

[The Brain]

DING DING DING!

We have a winner!

Some others that think just because they've never pressed a book, they've never *sold* a pressed book and are living in a dream world.

You can be disillusioned all you want, but it doesn't change the world we live in.

Until *you* can come up with a way to *detect* it, stop whining about the fact that nobody else can.

 

You guys slay me by crying about pressed books.

Shut your hole and come up with a way to detect it.

 

Screw what's come before.

 

You're correct that until a bona fide method for detecting pressing after the fact is established, anyone who sells a book they didn't know had been pressed can be labelled a hypocrite. Should they be? I don't see how, but play that game if you want.

 

But just because there's a whole slew of books with undisclosed pressing out there now doesn't mean that every book that's sent off from now on has to be sold undisclosed.

 

Ya gotta start somewhere. I, for one, applaud dealers like Quality and Esquire who have chosen to take the full disclosure route.

 

Like so many have said before, if no one cares about it, why hide it?

 

YES!!! TELL BEFORE YOU SELL!!! NO MORE NON-DISCLOSED-PRESSING-FOR-PROFIT!!!

[DiceX]

DING DING DING!

We have a winner!

Some others that think just because they've never pressed a book, they've never *sold* a pressed book and are living in a dream world.

You can be disillusioned all you want, but it doesn't change the world we live in.

Until *you* can come up with a way to *detect* it, stop whining about the fact that nobody else can.

 

You guys slay me by crying about pressed books.

Shut your hole and come up with a way to detect it.

 

Screw what's come before.

 

You're correct that until a bona fide method for detecting pressing after the fact is established, anyone who sells a book they didn't know had been pressed can be labelled a hypocrite. Should they be? I don't see how, but play that game if you want.

 

But just because there's a whole slew of books with undisclosed pressing out there now doesn't mean that every book that's sent off from now on has to be sold undisclosed.

 

Ya gotta start somewhere. I, for one, applaud dealers like Quality and Esquire who have chosen to take the full disclosure route.

 

Like so many have said before, if no one cares about it, why hide it?

 

OK. Let's say a dealer is giving full disclosure, and sells a pressed book.

Let's even say, with disclosure, the final price is 50% of GPA average.

Once it's left his hands, what's to stop a buyer from flipping it for double his money?

I'm sure in 99.99999% of all cases, the disclosure ends with these fine upstanding dealers.

 

So now we as collectors are no better off than we were.

These few dealers that are disclosing the information are not doing anything for the market or the hobby.

If they really want to do us a favor, they should stop pressing the things.

They still get 50% of the non-disclosed pressed price, and the book is prevented from the doom and gloom everyone is so frightened of.

 

If no one cares, why press it?

[skybolt]

There is going to have to be a line drawn somewhere. This applies to everything. For years dealers were selling restored color touched books as unrestored. Now, particularly with CGC, we know the books are restored. Did that impact the value of the unfortunate collector who bought and now possesses restored books? Yes it did. I don't see a major difference. The question still remains did the seller know the books were "restored"?

 

If they did know the books were pressed (or perhaps if they should have known, this depends), then there may be grounds for legal action even years later. Don't take this as an absolute, b/c there will be factors that impact the legal viability of any fraud claim. For example, unlike the color touched books which, as I understand it, were considered "restored" back even back in the 1980s if caught, I am not clear as to whether the same applies to pressing. But in some cases, and even perhaps many, there will be some very strong legal claims against certain dealers who are intentionally selling pressed books.

 

Now, back again to detectability, I say again that for certain books it will be absolutely 100% detectible that a book has been pressed, and that is with pedigree copies where the original grade was known. We should start where the evidence already exists and move forward from there.

 

So what would you do if someone came forth and proved that some of your high grade DC CGC graded books were pressed back in the late 80's. Would you devalue your entire collection even though you weren't absolutely sure shich books were pressed and which ones weren't? What I'm saying is that if a major dealer comes out and says they've been pressing books for the past 5 years, then every single purchase you and I have made from them will be scrutinized. Why should I put my entire collection under a microscope if maybe only a few of the books were pressed, and are still undetectable.

 

I just feel that since other forms of restoration can be detected, then we can send the collection to CGC and have them pick out the bad apples. However, with undetectable pressing, the entire collection would be called into suspicion just because it was purchased from one or two dealers that came clean with their practices. So would I now have to disclose which dealer I purchased my books from, even if I can't remember the details anymore?

[PovertyRow]

Until *you* can come up with a way to *detect* it, stop whining about the fact that nobody else can.

 

IS pressing restoration, detectable or therwise? Of course it is. The book is being brought back to a previous state. Again, those slight curls that can be undone with a finger I do not consider restoration, but anything with heat, humidity, beyond-finger pressure or a combination of these targeting a fold, crease etc.? That is restoration.

 

Now something I have been saying since long before my first day here is that the word "restoration" has taken a huge and unfair hit due to some sleeze-meisters. A truly professionally restored book is a completely different thing from a "make it look good and sell quick" hack job that, on the surface, looks good but does not survive real examination.

 

As far as the value of pressed vs unpressed books? I have also given my opinion many times on that. We all know the sometimes shocking difference in value between a low grade and a high grade book. But why does a truly NM or better book command such a premium? To me, it is because the book has survived near-impossible odds to retain its original condition, with no human intervention to revert it to its previous state.. That IS worth something. Especially in GA and early silver. And also in the historically less-collected BA genres.

 

Should a HG book with no process to make it a bit better be worth more than the same book with only a spot-press to bring it back? To me, it should. Why? Because I am betting there are a lot more books that may just need a spot press (or a bit more) than books that retained their integrity with nothing being done to them.

 

Should a pressed book take the same hit as a book with piece replacement, inpainting, tear seals etc? Of course not. BUT I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT IS THE CORE OF THE PROBLEM. The term "restoration" does not seem (with the excpetion of a few "I'll take a cleaned pressed book") to have any differentiation. People do not seem to really try to understand and equate the differences between a book with the staples replaced, a piece replaced, tears sealed, a spine roll removed, color touch, a drop of glue, an ounce of glue, etc etc. It all seems to be rolled into "restoration" as a blanket. And I do hold CGC partially accountable for that because of the, in my opinion of the hundreth time, really dumb purple label.

 

But now we have a process which is indeed restoration: pressing. But it cannot be 100% detected. So it is not brought into the CGC restoration definition. And some people seem to take assurance in that. Which makes no sense to me because it is sounding like some people don't care as much about the book's integrity but about what can be proven.

 

Bottom line? A pressed book is a restored book? The most benign of restoration? Pretty much but it depends on the extent of the pressing. A book with a drop of archival glue to seal a staple tear, for example, is to me in the same category.

[tay666]

Until *you* can come up with a way to *detect* it, stop whining about the fact that nobody else can.

 

IS pressing restoration, detectable or therwise? Of course it is. The book is being brought back to a previous state. Again, those slight curls that can be undone with a finger I do not consider restoration, but anything with heat, humidity, beyond-finger pressure or a combination of these targeting a fold, crease etc.? That is restoration.

 

 

Why isn't it restoration even if you do it with your fingernail?

You are still bringing it back to a previous state.

 

I don't have anything to gain one way or the other in this.

I don't buy HG books, and I don't sell any either.

But this whole debate still has me rolling my eyes.

 

Everyone wants to call it restoration, but they can't show where it has actually done anything to the paper itself.

They say it does, but no one has offered any proof.

When someone can show where pressing has done anything more than cramming too many books in a longbox and leaving them in a hot humid closet for a few years, then I will be convinced it is restoration.

Until then it is just acceleration of what could naturally occur.