August Heritage Auction

[Silver Surfer]

And who else is in the 2nd Tier with Romita?

John Buscema.

 

Ridiculous. Second tier artist with some of the greatest covers ever, yeah sure.

As predictable as me making fun of John Buscema is Peter riding to the rescue to defend him.

 

It's shameful. Too many years of DC covers has made you jaded.

[delekkerste]

When someone spends 6 figures on a Romita cover how much is for Romita and how much for Spider-Man? When we see near 6 figures for later issue Spider-Man covers done by artists you personally have ranked lower on the chain then the answer seems obvious to me. The artist isn't as important as you sometimes make it out to be. See the ending price of the Spider-Man vs Wolverine cover for a good example.

 

To echo what Nelson and Dan have said, I am and have always been one of the leading proponents of the belief that most of the value in comic art is nostalgia/context-driven than quality of art driven (which is why I think it has been and will continue to be a hard sell to the uninitiated). Hence, the Spidey vs. Wolverine outcome (though, I suspect that the alleged Al Williamson inks - which some dispute, but it was advertised as such - helped out there as well). In any case, no, a one-off outlier like that doesn't make Mark Bright an A-list comic artist, any more than Herb Trimpe drawing Hulk #180 and #181 makes him an A-lister.

 

Next, to your point about how much is buying Romita and how much is Spider-Man? I'd say that quite a lot of it is Romita. Ditko co-created Spider-Man, but it was during Romita's run that Spidey became Marvel's flagship character and title, and he set the standard and look for the book for many years to come. So, you're not only buying into his artistic skill, but also his historical importance to Spidey's/Marvel's history. If Don Heck had drawn Spidey instead of John Romita Sr., I'm sure those covers would be much more valuable than Heck's other output, sure, but I doubt that they'd be worth what Romita's are today. You guys can say that Romita is Ringo, but it just isn't the case.

[Tokay]

I want to cry when I see the colored Wolverine pages.

[delekkerste]

The trouble with Gene's definition is that its circular. "The most famous artists are the most famous ones." Mkay, well, that much is obvious, but replace Romita on that ASM run with someone equally capable and the price for the ASM 65 cover doesn't change one iota. The price for Romita's work does (when you take away the spidey association) but the ASM covers would be coveted regardless of who drew them as long as they weren't terribly drawn.

 

Replace Ringo Starr and you still got a band

 

Have someone else draw the Rocketeer and none of us would have even heard of it.

 

I don't know where you're getting that my argument is somehow "the most famous artists are the most famous ones" - that's getting into straw man territory. At no point did I say that it's only the most famous artists who are A-listers - otherwise, Dave Stevens wouldn't be on the A-list. He may be well-known among the cognoscenti, but, as has been pointed out, he's not a guy who ever had a best-selling comic book, prodigious output or any of the things that would make him among the most well-known artists in the medium.

 

What I actually did say, repeatedly, is that artistic merit is not the sole criteria of who makes the A-list. There has to be some preponderance of artistic merit, popularity, critical reception, marketplace validation, etc. to justify it. It's an art, not a science, and YMMV - it's not so much a circle as it is a mosaic. You look at all the pieces and see if enough of them carry enough gravitas to put an artist in the pantheon.

 

I don't know if this is circular, or just axiomatic, but...

 

Mkay, well, that much is obvious, but replace Romita on that ASM run with someone equally capable and the price for the ASM 65 cover doesn't change one iota.

 

Um, yeah, replacing Romita on the ASM run with someone equally capable (i.e., ANOTHER A-LISTER!!) may not change the price of the ASM 65 cover one iota. But, put Don Heck in there, Ayers, Herb Trimpe, Sal Buscema, etc. and it sure would. Maybe John Buscema would get as much or more, but I suspect that would only be because of the rarity of it - if Big John had become Spidey's regular artist after Ditko, I doubt that he would have stamped his authority on the title the way that Romita did. I think you're all sorts of off-base if you think that Romita was just an interchangeable cog who ended up in the right place at the right time. I mean, sure, he did, but then he both excelled and made the most of it. So, he's not Ringo, not even close, in my book.

[delekkerste]

I want to cry when I see the colored Wolverine pages.

 

Obviously the Artstafarians here will lament no longer being able to see the pencil lines and fine brushstrokes and wax poetically about the purity of black ink on white board and the vision of the creators. And, those concerned about prestige and market/resale value will moan that no colored page will be considered best in class, will sell at a discount, attract far fewer interested buyers, get far fewer CAF comments, and will always carry the sympathetic qualifier of "too bad it was colored in".

 

That said, putting all those considerations aside, if I just look at these through unfiltered fanboy glasses...I think they look pretty cool. I mean, if someone had made copies of the B&W art. had them professionally colored, and it came out looking like these, we'd all agree that they look pretty great. Obviously, none of us in 2016 would choose to do this to expensive originals, but, we can also appreciate that circumstances were different back in the day. And, though it's a shame to lose the original pen & ink, I can still appreciate these for how they look and what they are...they're still beautiful to me.

 

And, frankly, while these pages are nice and would be fairly pricey in their uncolored state, they're not so important to comic history that a few of them colored in is such a huge loss to the comic world. I mean, if the AF #15 cover turned up and it was colored, yeah, that would be a shame even if it looked cool in color. These pages, though? To me, not so much. I remember maybe 10 years ago, someone was selling a couple of colored-in SSOC pages on eBay and somebody told me that they should not only not sell at a discount, but should trade at a premium (I think he was dead right). Why? Because there are thousands of those pages around, and most of us wouldn't take a second glance at most of them. But, you'll certainly take a look at ones that have been very nicely colored - suddenly those ho-hum pages are now actually exciting to look at. Not that Miller Wolvie pages aren't exciting to look at in B&W, but I think they're still exciting to look at in color - if not for the pencil lines and fine brushstrokes, then for the composition/sequential storytelling and the vivid images which colorfully evoke some heavy-duty nostalgia.

 

Just my since most people seem to be rather uniformly-minded when it comes to OA that's been colored post-production.

[Bronty]

What you've said , at least as I interpreted it, is that the A list is the A list. Either you're on it or you're not. Either you got the asm gig or you didn't. Either you got those breaks and used them, or you didn't.

 

Same thing. Effectively circular .

 

Keep Romita in romance and we are not even considering this discussion and you're telling me how he is D list.

 

[delekkerste]

What you've said , at least as I interpreted it, is that the A list is the A list. Either you're on it or you're not. Either you got the asm gig or you didn't. Either you got those breaks and used them, or you didn't.

 

Same thing. Effectively circular .

 

Your interpretation is faulty. Very faulty. But, that's OK. Let's stop beating this dead horse and get back on topic.

 

But, since you added to your last post:

 

Keep Romita in romance and we are not even considering this discussion and you're telling me how he is D list.

 

Keep Ditko at Charlton and he's no longer the revered co-creator of Spider-Man and his rogue's gallery, and is just a quirky artist who's probably not remembered very well today. And, again, you're way off base about Romita. First, you couldn't keep him in romance, because romance was dying out, which is why he left DC and started freelancing for Marvel. And he impressed Stan enough with his Avengers and Daredevil work (including the Spidey cross-over issues) to put him in pole position to take over from Ditko. So, he put himself into position to get the gig - it was only luck to the extent that luck is preparation meets opportunity. And, then, he took that book, made it his own, and helped make it Marvel's most popular - to think he was the Ringo equivalent during the hey-day of the Marvel Method is just nuts. He was doing the heavy lifting, not just providing rhythm in the background. It was his versions of the characters that became the standard for decades, not Ditko's. Would another Ditko replacement have owned it like that? I doubt it.

[Bronty]

What you've said , at least as I interpreted it, is that the A list is the A list. Either you're on it or you're not. Either you got the asm gig or you didn't. Either you got those breaks and used them, or you didn't.

 

Same thing. Effectively circular .

 

Your interpretation is faulty. Very faulty. But, that's OK. Let's stop beating this dead horse and get back on topic.

 

You want to talk about Boris again? Done.

[stinkininkin]

What you've said , at least as I interpreted it, is that the A list is the A list. Either you're on it or you're not. Either you got the asm gig or you didn't. Either you got those breaks and used them, or you didn't.

 

Same thing. Effectively circular .

 

Your interpretation is faulty. Very faulty. But, that's OK. Let's stop beating this dead horse and get back on topic.

 

You want to talk about Boris again? Done.

 

God no.

 

More of the Wrightsons are up on Heritage though. The Swampthing wrap around is killer, and the Taking No Chances is an absolute SHOW STOPPER! Won't have the same appeal for some collecotors as a known character like Swampy, but if you just want a beautiful piece of art, look no further.

 

Scott

 

 

[tth2]

Ugh

 

OMFG

 

 

I find these to be equally , so no.

My stomach is empty, and yet I still can`t stop vomiting after seeing those 2 "paintings".

 

Why would you inflict such abuse on your fellow boardies?!

[tth2]

Obviously talent and critical reception are, as someone pointed out earlier, the third prong in the equation of what constitutes an A-lister. My point was merely that artistic merit was not the SOLE component, as some are making it out to be (stated quite explicitly a few posts ago by buyatari).

 

There have to be artists that you would consider A list artists that didn't sell mega millions.

I'm not privy to print runs but I'd imagine that most if not all Dave Stevens books didn't see huge print runs. Do you consider Dave Stevens an A list artist?

 

Of course, no one would dispute that Dave Stevens was an top-tier talent. I would say that, on the basis of his overall popularity/appeal (despite not selling mega millions of copies), critical reception and validation in the marketplace (re: very high prices for his better material), that, yes, he is an A-lister. But, guess what - if his Rocketeer pages were selling for $500 and his covers for $5,000, I'd say no, he wouldn't qualify. He'd just be a very popular and immensely talented niche artist in that case. I wouldn't call him a "B-lister" in that event, but I don't think that "A-lister" would be the appropriate term for someone with that profile.

 

So, selling millions of copies is not a pre-requisite, and neither is it a necessary-but-not-sufficient condition IMO. But, neither is pure talent alone. Case in point, Frank Brunner, who is not an A-lister in my book. He's a very talented artist, and some of his best work is downright beautiful and can fetch a good, but not spectacular, amount of money. But, like I said, talent alone does not get you on the A-list. He doesn't have the mass popularity and critical appeal of a Kirby or the niche appeal but critical reception and marketplace validation of a Stevens, so I would say his overall profile doesn't quite make it.

 

Obviously, this is an inexact science...not everyone's list is going to look exactly the same.

 

When someone spends 6 figures on a Romita cover how much is for Romita and how much for Spider-Man? When we see near 6 figures for later issue Spider-Man covers done by artists you personally have ranked lower on the chain then the answer seems obvious to me. The artist isn't as important as you sometimes make it out to be. See the ending price of the Spider-Man vs Wolverine cover for a good example.

 

[tth2]

Getting this thread back on topic...

 

1935 Alex Raymond Flash Gordon Sunday!

[tth2]

Lou Fine splash from 1941!

[Bronty]

That black condor splash is sweet! I have seen it before somewhere not sure if CAF or a precious auction

[buyatari]

 

To echo what Nelson and Dan have said, I am and have always been one of the leading proponents of the belief that most of the value in comic art is nostalgia/context-driven than quality of art driven (which is why I think it has been and will continue to be a hard sell to the uninitiated). Hence, the Spidey vs. Wolverine outcome (though, I suspect that the alleged Al Williamson inks - which some dispute, but it was advertised as such - helped out there as well). In any case, no, a one-off outlier like that doesn't make Mark Bright an A-list comic artist, any more than Herb Trimpe drawing Hulk #180 and #181 makes him an A-lister.

 

We just have a totally different view on what makes an A lister. By what you have said if Bright had worked on multiple keys book and had a history of the artwork from these key books selling for big bucks in the secondary we instantly have an A lister. I suppose this would also be the view of someone in the auction house with a detached view to the material. Ahh Bright = $ because I've seen it before again and again = A lister.

 

I just don't see it that way. To me an A lister is when the artist outshines the content. As you said most of this is driven by context/nostalgia and I'm saying the same thing. Only those rare circumstances where it does not do we have an A lister. The Wrightson material is awesome. He outshines the characters or series he is illustrating. A lister.

[spider9698]

Back to the auction: Another Calvin and Hobbes Daily!!

 

[Peter G]

Back to the auction: Another Calvin and Hobbes Daily!!

 

But are people interested in the strip because of the popularity of the Hobbes character or the artistic skill and mastery of Bill Watterson ?

[Peter G]

Bill Watterson

 

Walter White

 

 

[adamstrange]

Lou Fine splash from 1941!

IIRC, Romitaman had it for sale last year at his booth.

 

That entire story exists. Most of the pages were sold at SD Con in 97 or 98.

[Bird]

Back to the auction: Another Calvin and Hobbes Daily!!

 

But are people interested in the strip because of the popularity of the Hobbes character or the artistic skill and mastery of Bill Watterson ?

 

Yes, Stan Lee should get his credit for Calvin & Hobbes as well!

 

At least here Watterson is the sole creator, so splitting hairs does not matter.

 

I think his line and inking are superb, in any event.