MAN OF STEEL 2 starring Henry Cavill (TBD) 4 4

[Bosco685]

On 12/16/2022 at 8:42 AM, fmaz said:

Although it’s hard to do, there are two different issues here and they need to be separated - what DC has wasted (in terms of talent and years) and what they’re doing going forward.

Clearly they never had a master plan (or never stuck to any one plan for very long… however you want to describe it) and it showed, and IMHO they had excellent people (Cavill, Affleck and Gadot) cast as the big three… and it feels criminal that at least two of them (and maybe all three) for various reasons are now discarded and/or disinterested. Some wasted opportunities for sure.

But the thing is, there is ZERO anyone can do about those things… the past is the past. So all that matters is what is to come.

I agree with what @jsilverjanet said - Gunn has a lot of leeway going forward, and I think deservedly so.  Partly for what he’s accomplished, and partly because finally there’s someone whose vision will be used to coordinate things going forward.

It certainly doesn’t have to be a new MCU (and I’m sure it won’t be)… and I think most of us wish he’d found a way to incorporate Cavill into this. Having someone well cast as Superman who wants to play the role and who the fans really like seems like and discarding him seems like an odd first move.

I’m still optimistic. I think he’s earned our trust. He spent a lot of it with this recent move, however, so whatever he now does first out of the gate — probably an announcement of a slate of movies — needs to show his work, so to speak, but even so… if this is his call, I think we need to give it to him.

We can’t, however, keep relitigating the past. What’s done is done. It’s now about what happens from this point forward. Fingers crossed!

 

I very much appreciate your sensible mindset.

But what it fails to recognize is WB Studios co-CEOs had informed Henry Cavill he should go ahead and announce to the world he was back post-Black Adam's opening weekend. He held off making that announcement until he was told to do so. So now less than two months later, now the news breaks James Gunn and Peter Safran decided that Henry Cavill was not going to be Superman again.

There is no normal with this news. Nothing about it comes across as normal. And it makes WB-Discovery look like imbecilic how it is treating Hollywood talent, whether it is Henry Cavill or even Leslie Grace as Batgirl. What talent or creators would trust a major studio like WB-Discovery or DC Studios seeing how this played out? It comes across as poorly thought out, including how fans would react to the handling of the situation.

I like James Gunn. I like what he did with GotG Vol. 1. Even with Vol. 2 there were elements I really enjoyed. But this was a misstep how to get the 10-year plan moving without a lot of turmoil. They could have easily used two-three films to wrap up the DCEU stories (including The Flash), and then transitioned to the go-forward franchise. They could have even used the events of The Flash to turn this all over to new blood through the Speedforce. So now that comic book-associated influence pulls the direction together.

It just looks really poor to kick off the new guard this way.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Bosco685

[eastriver400]

 

I wonder just how much of this whole "clean slate" approach has to do with Black Adam not doing very well at the Box Office.    Let's face it, if the Rock, the JSA, and Cavill's return as Superman couldn't bring in the crowds...... then why continue to beat a dead horse?   

I truly enjoyed the Black Adam movie, and I would absolutely LOVE to see more JSA, more Cavill, and more of anything to do with he Shazam Universe, but I get it, this is about $$$.  

Sucks for Cavill, and sucks for me as a fan (i still think he was the best Superman EVER), but it's called "Show-BUSINESS", not "Show-ART".  

I remain optimistic and bullish on Gunn, Safran and the future of the DCU. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by eastriver400

[Bosco685]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:06 AM, eastriver400 said:

Let's face it, if the Rock, the JSA, and Cavill's return as Superman couldn't bring in the crowds...... then why continue to beat a dead horse? 

The WB Pictures co-CEOs didn't override Walter Hamada until one month before Black Adam's release. So shoving him into a short credits scene and assuming that was going to be the big win for the immediate box office wouldn't be fair. It was a promise for the future things to come.

The legacy WB leadership really undermined its own valuable properties leading to the situation. I would rather thank Dwayne Johnson fighting through over ten years of WB garbage to finally move this film forward, and bringing his friend along last-minute.

[Bosco685]

@D2  

You do try so hard.

[D2]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:48 AM, Bosco685 said:

@D2  

You do try so hard.

Don't be so effected.

 

On topic:

I think MOS2, should have happened, when it should have happened, instead of WB derailing it.

My only concern would be, what is going to prevent it all from happening again. 

So Execs freaked out when MOS under performed, which, I don't think it did. 675 million is good in my eyes for an opening movie, similar in scope to Iron Man, and instead of following the road map originally, they screwed over Zack Snyder into a movie he didn't plan on making. Now...

If they are starting over, fine. But if this all seems to follow the same suit, are they just going to derail it again? Possible. Nothing changes when the figure heads stay the same.

[Bosco685]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:55 AM, D2 said:

Don't be so effected.

 

On topic:

I think MOS2, should have happened, when it should have happened, instead of WB derailing it.

My only concern would be, what is going to prevent it all from happening again. 

So Execs freaked out when MOS under performed, which, I don't think it did. 675 million is good in my eyes for an opening movie, similar in scope to Iron Man, and instead of following the road map originally, they screwed over Zack Snyder into a movie he didn't plan on making. Now...

If they are starting over, fine. But if this all seems to follow the same suit, are they just going to derail it again? Possible. Nothing changes when the figure heads stay the same.

I just find it funny you accused me of following you around the forum (never have), but then that is what you do. Mental mirrors are something you should reflect on.

Other than that, MOS did not underperform when you reflect on the Superman brand became a diminishing returns franchise. Oddly enough, due to WB Studios mishandling. And even with the massive budget it threw at Superman Returns to give it a bump, it landed at just 1.4X production budget.

It wasn't until Man of Steel that it finally bounced back up to clear profitability. Including a $170M estimated product placement revenue to counter a large portion of expenses.

How Superman has made $170million without even selling a ticket

Edited December 16, 2022 by Bosco685

[D2]

On 12/16/2022 at 11:07 AM, Bosco685 said:

I just find it funny you accused me of following you around the forum (never have), but then that is what you do. Mental mirrors are something you should reflect on.

Other than that, MOS did not underperform when you reflect on the Superman brand became a diminishing returns franchise. Oddly enough, due to WB Studios mishandling. And even with the massive budget it through at Superman Returns to give it a bump, it landed at just 1.4X production budget.

It wasn't until Man of Steel that it finally bounced back up to clear profitability. Including a $170M estimated product placement revenue to counter a large portion of expenses.

How Superman has made $170million without even selling a ticket

 

I'm sorry, I did not intend to accuse you of following me around the forum. I don't think I've ever stated that ever, as that's not how I feel.

I was just commenting on your reactions to others as they are quite funny. Quite superficially, to be fair.

 

From your list above, the largest, incredible metric that isn't considered, which everyone always talks about, is the marketing budget.

That's the one thing, I could say, where MOS probably blew out of the water, in terms of their marketing budget compared to other Superman movies, and I do think a lot of that would be due to the era. Marketing and movies were just handled, differently. I think marketing as an industry is really what we see and what it is today, within the last 2 decades.

As a comparison, I'd say even the marketing costs and range of Superman Returns, to MOS, even though they could be compared as the same era, I would think would still be an apples to oranges comparison. If they dumped $200 million in a marketing budget into MOS, I do understand where they may see it as a miss, but I am still of the camp that WB Execs were premature, and derailed MOS2 unnecessarily. 

[Bosco685]

On 12/16/2022 at 11:14 AM, D2 said:

 

I'm sorry, I did not intend to accuse you of following me around the forum. I don't think I've ever stated that ever, as that's not how I feel.

I was just commenting on your reactions to others as they are quite funny. Quite superficially, to be fair.

 

From your list above, the largest, incredible metric that isn't considered, which everyone always talks about, is the marketing budget.

That's the one thing, I could say, where MOS probably blew out of the water, in terms of their marketing budget compared to other Superman movies, and I do think a lot of that would be due to the era. Marketing and movies were just handled, differently. I think marketing as an industry is really what we see and what it is today, within the last 2 decades.

As a comparison, I'd say even the marketing costs and range of Superman Returns, to MOS, even though they could be compared as the same era, I would think would still be an apples to oranges comparison. If they dumped $200 million in a marketing budget into MOS, I do understand where they may see it as a miss, but I am still of the camp that WB Execs were premature, and derailed MOS2 unnecessarily. 

Superficially? I think you need to reflect on that word. As not only have I provided details like when Henry Cavill was finally approved to return by WB Studios, but also actual film box office content and results. But I recognize your attempt at baiting.

It is funny when folks fall back on the Marketing Budget as their gotcha moment. It is an expense category people guesstimates, and can vary wildly. But then again, you weren't even referencing that massive product placement revenue that more than one credible source noted at that time to counter even a large P&A Budget.

[D2]

On 12/16/2022 at 11:21 AM, Bosco685 said:

Superficially? I think you need to reflect on that word. As not only have I provided details like when Henry Cavill was finally approved to return by WB Studios, but also actual film box office content and results. But I recognize your attempt at baiting.

It is funny when folks fall back on the Marketing Budget as their gotcha moment. It is an expense category people guesstimates, and can vary wildly. But then again, you weren't even referencing that massive product placement revenue that more than one credible source noted at that time to counter even a large P&A Budget.

baiting?

 

dude, you know what... there's no middle ground with you. I apologized for even overstepping and you still push and are combative.

 

lost cause. good luck in your life. I can't even with you. permanently blocked. goodbye

[Bosco685]

On 12/16/2022 at 11:30 AM, D2 said:

baiting?

 

dude, you know what... there's no middle ground with you. I apologized for even overstepping and you still push and are combative.

 

lost cause. good luck in your life. I can't even with you. permanently blocked. goodbye

First you play it with this. Which you have done repeatedly.

Then more than once in this recent discussion implying my posts are superficial. Come on. You were not even trying to have a conversation. You were pretending to be sympathetic to the news, yet recently even joked about the off-again on-again Cavill news.

Just be honest, and less about baiting with the emoticon games and attempts at using terms that aren't even relevant.

[eastriver400]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:40 AM, Bosco685 said:

I would rather thank Dwayne Johnson fighting through over ten years of WB garbage to finally move this film forward, and bringing his friend along last-minute.

 

I also thank DJ. No doubt. 

But the writing is on the wall and I am looking forward to moving on. This mythology deserves more than the dysfunction of the last decade.   I truly believe Safran and Gunn will do it right. 

[D2]

On 12/16/2022 at 12:12 PM, eastriver400 said:

 

I also thank DJ. No doubt. 

But the writing is on the wall and I am looking forward to moving on. This mythology deserves more than the dysfunction of the last decade.   I truly believe Safran and Gunn will do it right. 

I totally agree. Gunn will do it right. 

[Bosco685]

On 12/16/2022 at 12:12 PM, eastriver400 said:

 

I also thank DJ. No doubt. 

But the writing is on the wall and I am looking forward to moving on. This mythology deserves more than the dysfunction of the last decade.   I truly believe Safran and Gunn will do it right. 

I really hope so. But yesterday's news was not the best start, unfortunately.

But I was blown away by Peacemaker. So hopefully there are more solid surprises.

[fmaz]

On 12/16/2022 at 9:10 AM, Bosco685 said:

I very much appreciate your sensible mindset.

But what it fails to recognize is WB Studios co-CEOs had informed Henry Cavill he should go ahead and announce to the world he was back post-Black Adam's opening weekend. He held off making that announcement until he was told to do so. So now less than two months later, now the news breaks James Gunn and Peter Safran decided that Henry Cavill was not going to be Superman again.

There is no normal with this news. Nothing about it comes across as normal. And it makes WB-Discovery look like imbecilic how it is treating Hollywood talent, whether it is Henry Cavill or even Leslie Grace as Batgirl. What talent or creators would trust a major studio like WB-Discovery or DC Studios seeing how this played out? It comes across as poorly thought out, including how fans would react to the handling of the situation.

I like James Gunn. I like what he did with GotG Vol. 1. Even with Vol. 2 there were elements I really enjoyed. But this was a misstep how to get the 10-year plan moving without a lot of turmoil. They could have easily used two-three films to wrap up the DCEU stories (including The Flash), and then transitioned to the go-forward franchise. They could have even used the events of The Flash to turn this all over to new blood through the Speedforce. So now that comic book-associated influence pulls the direction together.

It just looks really poor to kick off the new guard this way.

I mean, we’re in agreement I think.  You like the way I was being sensible and I wholly agree with your opinion. I was just trying to say that as “clown shoes”as this move looks (and yeah, I’d forgotten about the Batgirl thing - yikes) James Gunn seems like a real stand up guy who cast and crew universally seems to rave about… and he has made really good content.  Whatever people think of GOTG 2, the GOTG universe as a whole (including the holiday special and leading into #3) is a home run… and I just can’t imagine he’d so completely muff the Cavil thing without there being something we don’t know, some reason behind it.

That’s the only reason why I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and wait to see what he comes out with.  But yeah, seems like it would have been so much easier to either resolve DCEU, or heck, you can de-age Cavil if you really need to for one movie.. it would be controversial but if it meant you’d have him long term people would go along with the ride. 

I do understand people saying “enough is enough”… it just makes me sad, is all. So I’m trying not to go there… yet. 

[Bosco685]

On 12/16/2022 at 2:02 PM, fmaz said:

I mean, we’re in agreement I think.  You like the way I was being sensible and I wholly agree with your opinion. I was just trying to say that as “clown shoes”as this move looks (and yeah, I’d forgotten about the Batgirl thing - yikes) James Gunn seems like a real stand up guy who cast and crew universally seems to rave about… and he has made really good content.  Whatever people think of GOTG 2, the GOTG universe as a whole (including the holiday special and leading into #3) is a home run… and I just can’t imagine he’d so completely muff the Cavil thing without there being something we don’t know, some reason behind it.

That’s the only reason why I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and wait to see what he comes out with.  But yeah, seems like it would have been so much easier to either resolve DCEU, or heck, you can de-age Cavil if you really need to for one movie.. it would be controversial but if it meant you’d have him long term people would go along with the ride. 

I do understand people saying “enough is enough”… it just makes me sad, is all. So I’m trying not to go there… yet. 

There are definitely a number of social media posts with people proclaiming "Done with DC forever!" I can't see that being my opinion, as even if live films disappoint over time we still have animated films and shows. Though with the new DC Studios roadmap to link it all, time will tell what that turns out to be.

I do like so far that Matt Reeves' The Batman Universe and Todd Phillips with Joker are separate. Maybe even that reminds Gunn and Safran it is okay to have short franchise branches or standalone films.

[bentbryan]

 

[fmaz]

On 12/16/2022 at 2:36 PM, Bosco685 said:

There are definitely a number of social media posts with people proclaiming "Done with DC forever!" I can't see that being my opinion, as even if live films disappoint over time we still have animated films and shows. Though with the new DC Studios roadmap to link it all, time will tell what that turns out to be.

I do like so far that Matt Reeves' The Batman Universe and Todd Phillips with Joker are separate. Maybe even that reminds Gunn and Safran it is okay to have short franchise branches or standalone films.

Plus, remember that Marvel has done a lot of the heavy lifting for the non-comic reading public on the concept of the multi-verse… so that they’re able to say that ALL of these films and characters do exist inside the same wide ranging DC multiverse if so choose, but they also operate completely independently — at least for now.  That way, if they decide to mix and match characters (such as bringing in the new Batman with some leftovers from the DCEU, they can do so.  Or not.  It puts all options on the the table.. and they won’t have to jump through hoops to explain it to people. Marvel has already done that.  Flash, we assume, will serve to set up the rules by which the DC’s version of the multiverse operates, or at least we hope that’s what happens.

So I guess this is what I’m kind of counting on when I say I’m looking forward to Gunn laying out his “plan”… just explaining the mechanics for how things will work going forward. He can do this by announcing a movie or two, doesn’t have to be 10 movies… but it would be nice if we got a roadmap to how it will work. 

[MattTheDuck]

On 12/16/2022 at 5:57 AM, Axelrod said:

I actually think announcing an entire "slate" of films all at once is a mistake.  It's kind of overly ambitious and/or arrogant. Just, make a good movie.  And then make another one.  We don't need to know or see how these projects may be "interconnected" up front. 

I know Marvel has been doing this for years and years now, but (and maybe my memory fails) I don't remember them doing it at the very beginning.  I don't remember a grand announcement of a slate of films leading up to "The Avengers."  They just kind of, did it.  And people went nuts, so they've just leaned hard into that ever since.  

But you can't make the interconnectedness the big deal from the beginning.  Remember Universal's "Dark Universe?"  Big huge announcement that completely crumbled after one movie no one liked.  

I really hope they don't do a whole thing with a big press conference, or some presentation at a convention, introducing the "new" cast of the entire DC Universe, and showing how all these projects are going to be "connected" across Film, TV and even gaming platforms.  Yuck.  

Marvel announced all the "other" Phase I movies and their release dates up to The Avengers right after Iron Man's opening weekend in 2008.  How much of the succeeding movies success can be attributed to that is impossible to know. 

I do agree there's no particular reason for DC to just copy that idea because it "worked" for Marvel.  One might come to the conclusion that it would work exclusively with an interconnected group of movies.  Marvel, at least, waited until they had one very successful movie to make the announcement.  

[media_junkie]

 

On 12/16/2022 at 3:38 PM, MattTheDuck said:

Marvel, at least, waited until they had one very successful movie to make the announcement.  

Which is crazy to me because at the beginning (and @Bosco685 can drop in his chart that shows the first few Marvel movies and the first few DCEU movies rate of returns), DCEU was doing better than the Marvel (if I am remembering right).

I guess the "powers that be" got cold feet when all the DCEU movies didn't do $1 Billion plus right out the gate (and I'll contend that had WB released the Directors Cut of BvS: Dawn of Justice and not the chopped up spoon they did release they would have had their billion dollar film).

[Bosco685]

On 12/16/2022 at 3:55 PM, media_junkie said:

Which is crazy to me because at the beginning (and @Bosco685 can drop in his chart that shows the first few Marvel movies and the first few DCEU movies rate of returns), DCEU was doing better than the Marvel (if I am remembering right).

 

I guess the "powers that be" got cold feet when all the DCEU movies didn't do $1 Billion plus right out the gate (and I'll contend that had WB released the Directors Cut of BvS: Dawn of Justice and not the chopped up spoon they did release they would have had their billion dollar film).

This is where Marvel Studios were the smarter and more dedicated team to their vision, as The Incredible Hulk bombed (2nd MCU film) and Captain America: The First Avenger only broke even (5th MCU film). And for a long period of time any box office results required a 10% revenue share with Iron Man (2008) and 8% up to Thor: The Dark World with Paramount Studios. Yet it kept on hustling forward without questioning the road ahead.

WB Studios tampered with BVS by lopping off 30 minutes in a messy edit, and then scrambled for the exit when critics and bloggers trashed the film. Yet once the 30 minutes were added back in, it conveyed Clark Kent was actually serving as a smart reporter and Lex Luthor's plan was extremely detailed and effective from the beginning. Showing that Zack Snyder actually knew the characters and the pieces that needed to be included.

Crazy. But true. No matter how 'superficial' my posts. If only I researched better, like those magic marketing budgets.