Marvel has lost its way

[Magneto]

To further the destruction, Marvel is planning to "kill" the X-Men in the next few months. Seems to me the Marvel dominance was built on Spider-Man and X-Men.

 

I'm refusing to buy that whole "Death of X" series. I don't care how amazing it could be... it is basically an insult to my childhood and the passion I had for comics. I don't even care if it ends up being a rebirth in the end. It's just terrible what they have done.

[Doktor]

They're still somewhat throwing a tantrum over the whole FOX rights to the X-Men thing. And since force-feeding us the Inhumans hasn't gotten the job done with them being the NEW X-Men for Marvel, entirely taking the X-Men away at this point wouldn't be shocking. Like, they tried to force-feed us the Inhumans and minimize the X-Men by cutting the whole X-group title lineup in half in the past 3-4 years.

 

So their next step is to basically say "well, we tried to let you keep some of your X-Men and make you read Inhumans, but since you won't, we'll take away all of your x-men entirely & you won't have any choice but to read the Inhumans books instead. See?!?!? This is what you get". Because they think they have a captive audience.

[JohnFranklin]

Foolkiller

Prowler

Great Lakes Avengers

Occupy Avengers

Cage with artwork that's just

 

Plus an agenda that seems to be to do away with their iconic characters.

 

All great ways to make sure your market share declines.

 

Do their marketing folk know what a focus group is used for?

[Broke as a Joke]

Is Wolverine still dead?

[revat]

Is Wolverine still dead?

 

Lady Wolverine (not the actual title) is one of the better Marvel titles out there.

[Prince Namor]

It's quite apparent that Marvel has decided that maybe the Direct Market is NOT the future of comics. From what it looks like they are looking ahead quicker than any other publisher.

 

And why not?

 

What has the Direct Market done for them over the last 20 years besides decline?

 

Sure it has it's little blips here and there... but even their best written comics, Doctor Strange for example, at 50,000 monthly or Daredevil at 40,000 monthly - or their most popular Amazing Spider-man at 75-85,000 monthly, just doesn't seem to be lighting up those Diamond charts.

 

Or maybe... maybe they're just looking at it from a different perspective....

 

In today's market, 20,000 is ok. You're going for a specific market. No one complains when shoe companies make a woman's shoe, just for outdoors, with no raised heel, and added comfort - it doesn't sell as well as your basics, but it's necessary for a specific need.

 

No one NEEDS Bud Light Lime, and yet they make it. It fits a specific type, that might not otherwise buy beer..

 

Why is Vision, considered well written and selling about 20,000 copies a month considered a 'good' thing, and Ms. Marvel, considered an 'agenda' and selling about 20,000 a month? They're both just aimed at a specific demographic.

 

The mentality of 'It has to sell 1000,000 copies or it's a failure' is what has plagued this business since the 90's. Do you kick the $1 box buyer out of your store?

 

For retailers, especially one's who tire of it or remember how easy it was in the old days, it's tough. Marvel has x amount of titles in the top ten and you could just order x% amount over subscription and sell those right off the rack - in today's market it takes more work for the retailer. There are more titles, more publishers, aimed at more of a diverse audience, that sells in lower numbers.

 

And the old school fans complain - "Why is their a Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur?! Why isn't there more books like what (Stan Lee/Jim Shooter/Tom DeFalco/JMS/Joe Quesada?whatever was big when I grew up)???"

 

Get over it. Comics will NEVER be the same as they were when you were 13-14 years old. Move on. Or expand you mind. There are plenty of quality comic book still out there. Try reading something where the characters don't wear spandex.

 

The 'old school' direct market ISN'T growing. The diversity of Comics Reading IS.

 

People can talk all they want about, 'if Marvel and DC would do comics like the old days, something geared at an all ages readership, it'd SELL!' - well...they DO. And they DON'T.

 

Never have.

 

Batman Adventures - didn't sell. One of the best written, best drawn, highly acclaimed series of all times. They tried rebooting it and rebooting it.... didn't sell. And that was freakin' BATMAM!!!

 

Marvel's current Avengers, Spider-man, GOTG all ages monthly comic books - don't sell. Doesn't even show up in the Top 300 every month.

One of the best comics out there for all ages, Scooby Doo Team Up - recent issues had team ups with the Marvel Family, the Flash, Hawkman and HawkGirl - fun stuff, but other than when Harley Quinn showed up last year, no one really buys it (about 7000 copies a month- I usually sell about 6 copies a month of it).

 

No support from the 'old school'.

 

So what does a publisher do with a declining market of whiny fanboys that talk a lot and don't buy anything?

 

EXPAND the customer base by diversifying. (And watch the fanboys complain even more)

 

Digital Sales has shown a different type of buyer. Amazon Sales show a different type of buyer. Marvel Unlimited, according to Marvel, tracks a diverse type of reader (who buys the subscription service).

 

And we don't see the SALES from DIGITAL on these books (Ms Marvel is one of Marvel's best sellers on Comixology on a regular basis), or the Amazon book sales, or the tracking numbers for what is read on Marvel Unlimited. OR the overseas numbers.

 

All we see is the DIAMOND numbers and figure that tells the whole story.

 

It doesn't.

 

And why should I CARE about the subjective 'good' of the art or story. Am I a retailer or fanboy? I work in an industry where X-Force #1 is one of the best SELLING comic books of ALL TIME and put under the microscope of artistic critique, it's a piece of crap.

 

I'm a book seller. I sell books. To all different types of people. I like some of those books, don't like some of those books, not interested in some of those books, nowhere near read most of those books, but very much in the market to sell ANY and ALL that I have in the store or can order.

 

Would I love it if people bought more Charles Burns, or Dan Clowes, or Brubaker/Phillips? Sure. That'd be great. But I don't need that validation that I PERSONALLY think it's great. And I don't sit around complaining because they don't. Who cares? Buy what you personally like. It's a big world. I don't have time to paint it.

 

As Comic Book Retailers, we need to get past the 'old school' mentality of a mom and pop shop and order what our wide range of customers want. The loudest, most vocal customers are not our only customers. There are sales to be made from all different kinds of customers.

It takes more work. It takes more time. It takes more of an understanding of retail.

 

But it's either that or help make the direct market extinct even faster.

 

[grebal]

It seems that a single movie that performs (even mediocre) at the box office probably generates more corporate profits than the entire floppy division.

 

If so, comics might develop simply into a 'loss leader', something that loses money but keeps other divisions rolling in clover.

 

Perhaps there's even enough sales of merchandise related to the new unfamiliar Benetton rainbow of characters Hulk, Spidey, IM, Thor and for worldwide sales and future global merchandising of action figures, dolls, shirts, cartoons and movies, etc. to overcome any drop in comic sales, which do not generate even close to the profits realized in other depts.

 

[Please don't infer that I'm cool with milking the past characters as a cash cow until the cow is dead.]

[Pete Marino]

I don't know how many of you guys have kids. But it's impossible to find any X-Men toys these days.

 

Because Fox gets a cut they don't want to make them anymore, no matter how well they'd sell.

 

I had to go to amazon to find a halfway decent Wolverine. Forget finding Cyclops, Gene Grey or Professor X in Target, Toys R Us or Walmart.

[romanheart]

The quality of Marvel Comics titles are down but the industry is close to 90's levels again. Much of the push is fueled by speculation and gimmicks again.

 

As much as I like to be in on the next cool thing I can't give myself to buy in to an ongoing Marvel/DC title again. I can only see myself picking up the odd issue here and there.

[StarkEnterprises]

I stopped buying both Marvel and DC books a while back. The only new DC book I've bought recently was Cyborg but that was only because John Semper Jr (show runner for the 90s Spider-Man show) wrote it. Otherwise, the only new books I buy are Image ones namely The Walking Dead, Chew and whatever Brubaker/Phillips are working on. Once Chew finishes at the end of the year, it will be just 2 books that I buy regularly.

[revat]

I'm with Gower on this one. Its like having a million different cable channels. Yes there will always be broadcast network tv which we expect a lot of for the 'masses', but we're happy with much smaller ratings on cool specifically targeted shows on cable channels or Netflix or amazon. And the more niche stuff you find that fits you personally, the more disenchanted you become with things created for the masses, but you still have the happy 'masses' stuff in your memory banks from before.

 

 

[exitmusicblue]

We seem to have this conversation a lot. Marvel doesn't have any agenda other than making money. They wouldn't be chasing diversity and younger readers if they didn't think they could ultimately make more money off of them. I don't keep up with sales because I don't have a dog in that race, but if the newer, younger, different takes on their established characters are selling, then they're going to keep going down that road. If they're not selling, then I'm sure you'll see a return to the classic iterations of those heroes, sooner rather than later.

 

Yup, reality. Many voices not being heard here, but I see them everywhere.

 

Whichever new chars don't pan out, you can bet the return to the originals will happen with a bang and a lot of hooplah.

 

I don't see Cho as Hulk lasting long.

[dupont2005]

 

What companies plan, and what happens, often don't jive. Like here. Marvels market share has plummeted. There are no new readers coming in.

Marvel hasn't lost sales, it's just that DC gained sales. Not readers, sales. People who had five book on their pull list now have 25. It will get back to where it was just like it did when the New 52 launched and became the New 51 and the new 48 as titles got cancelled. And when you look beyond the direct market, they're both losing marketshare in staggering numbers. Bookscan, NYT, Amazon, and B&N bestseller lists have far different demographics than Diamond and the local comic shop.

 

The bolded is simply not true. Marvel has definitely lost sales, irrelevant to what DC has done. Though anecdotal, I've seen that in my shop, which I've owned for 21 years, and know my customers well. I know what they say, what they drop, and what they add. I have lifelong Marvel guys that are dropping titles because they don't like them. That has nothing to do with DC.

 

Where do you think young readers are going to buy their comics, the weird nerd hole 30 miles from home with the angry shop owner and the overpriced merchandise, or the bookstore in the mall, Amazon, their Kindle marketplace?

 

No offense, but this is just plain stupid. Not sure about your area, but that doesn't describe stores around here. Sure, those places are out there, but the shops that have survived to this point didn't do so by being anything like what you described.

 

One of the biggest markets for comics, believe it or not, is school book fairs, which is why Scholastic is KILLING the big two on the NYT bestseller list. On any given week, half that list will be books by Raina Telgemeier, and it's been that way for about five years. Marvel might pop up once or twice a year on the list, DC might have one or two titles a month on it. She dominates the top five 52 weeks out of the year. And yet she's never been on the Diamond top 300.

 

Great, but which superhero book is she writing now? And I'd love for Marvel/DC to make their way into school book fairs. Get them started, then they can come to my shop, really see what comics are out there.

 

Marvel isn't doing anything DC isn't doing, which is a problem in itself, but it pretty much means Marvel's loss of marketshare is due to DC's Rebirth having taken place just recently and not because Cap said Hail Hydra. Belive me, when Marvel puts a shiny new #1 on 80 titles for two months in a row, their marketshare in the direct market will be back to where it always was. And believe me, they already got the next reboot scheduled.

 

And believe me, every time they go back to that well, the well is dryer and dryer. As I said, sales were mess this year, for both Marvel and DC, and Rebirth gave it a boost. Marvel is still bad, and getting worse. And even Rebirth wasn't close to New 52, because "been there, done that" means it doesn't work as well the next time. Marvels been rebooting over and over, and people just don't care anymore.

 

It won't bring in any new readers, but it will make the ever shrinking pool of current readers add more titles to their pull list, which is what the real cause of these sales bumps is.

 

Exactly, so why is Marvel's plan to off the old readers, to bring in these new readers that don't exist?

 

If they wanted to actually bring in new readers, Iron Man should be all ages friendly, be a 100 page prestige bound magazine for $6.99, and be available in toy stores, book stores, book fairs, Wal Mart checkout lanes, and in vending machines at the movie theater where 60 million people lined up to watch the movie.

 

Couldn't agree with the bolded more. When comic racks disappeared from grocery store and toys store, etc, worst thing that ever happened. You need feeder places to wet the appetite.

 

Bottom line, comic sales were down double digits until DC Rebirth, which boosted it up to now only being down single digits. Marvel was losing readers before Rebirth, and have continued during it, not because of Rebirth, because of their books.

 

 

There are countless articles online about what a great year for sales Marvel is having in 2016. Here's one, from April, but it still represents Q1, and we barely finished Q2 so I assume not too much has changed

 

http://www.cbr.com/mayo-report-marvels-marvelous-april-sales-dcs-rebirth-what-they-mean-to-retailers/

 

Your shop having a different experience is easily explained. I believe internet retailers like DCBS are stealing market share from local shops. I also think trade waiters become a larger and larger portion of the industry, and I believe most trade waiters would get their trades either at the bookstore or at an online retailer with steep discounts. And let's not forget digital only readers and Marvel Unlimited.

[dupont2005]

Marvel's current strategy seems to to chase after new, younger readers and do so by changing things up so drastically that the old readers/ buyers no longer are interested.

 

And those new, younger readers are a mirage, and Marvel is just chasing its own tail.

Speaking of tail. Anybody notice what Marvel's big breakout hit is in it's graphic novel sales on Amazon?

It's Squirrel Girl. 4 of her graphic novels are Marvel's biggest sellers on Amazon. You put that with Ms. Marvel another best-seller and that tells me Marvel is catering to the female audience and not catering to the 40 plus middle-age crowd.

It's an interesting strategy.

It could work or backfire.

New readers or old loyal readers who made Marvel?

i think it would be easy for them to cater to both. Easier without a shared universe though.

[dupont2005]

Marvel's current strategy seems to to chase after new, younger readers and do so by changing things up so drastically that the old readers/ buyers no longer are interested.

 

And those new, younger readers are a mirage, and Marvel is just chasing its own tail.

Speaking of tail. Anybody notice what Marvel's big breakout hit is in it's graphic novel sales on Amazon?

It's Squirrel Girl. 4 of her graphic novels are Marvel's biggest sellers on Amazon. You put that with Ms. Marvel another best-seller and that tells me Marvel is catering to the female audience and not catering to the 40 plus middle-age crowd.

It's an interesting strategy.

It could work or backfire.

New readers or old loyal readers who made Marvel?

 

Amazon is a different animal. SG's book sells less than 14k a month. As a floppy, it's very floppy.

they sell less than 14k a month via Diamond. Diamonds figures don't account for Amazon or bookstores. Amazon isn't even listed on Diamonds website list of vendors they service. Barnes & Noble is, but they're only referring to the DC, Bongo, and Archie floppies in the magazine section with that mention.

[Prince Namor]

Marvel's current strategy seems to to chase after new, younger readers and do so by changing things up so drastically that the old readers/ buyers no longer are interested.

 

And those new, younger readers are a mirage, and Marvel is just chasing its own tail.

Speaking of tail. Anybody notice what Marvel's big breakout hit is in it's graphic novel sales on Amazon?

It's Squirrel Girl. 4 of her graphic novels are Marvel's biggest sellers on Amazon. You put that with Ms. Marvel another best-seller and that tells me Marvel is catering to the female audience and not catering to the 40 plus middle-age crowd.

It's an interesting strategy.

It could work or backfire.

New readers or old loyal readers who made Marvel?

 

Amazon is a different animal. SG's book sells less than 14k a month. As a floppy, it's very floppy.

they sell less than 14k a month via Diamond. Diamonds figures don't account for Amazon or bookstores. Amazon isn't even listed on Diamonds website list of vendors they service. Barnes & Noble is, but they're only referring to the DC, Bongo, and Archie floppies in the magazine section with that mention.

 

It also doesn't account for digital sales which are even more profitable.

[dupont2005]

It's quite apparent that Marvel has decided that maybe the Direct Market is NOT the future of comics. From what it looks like they are looking ahead quicker than any other publisher.

 

And why not?

 

What has the Direct Market done for them over the last 20 years besides decline?

 

Sure it has it's little blips here and there... but even their best written comics, Doctor Strange for example, at 50,000 monthly or Daredevil at 40,000 monthly - or their most popular Amazing Spider-man at 75-85,000 monthly, just doesn't seem to be lighting up those Diamond charts.

 

Or maybe... maybe they're just looking at it from a different perspective....

 

In today's market, 20,000 is ok. You're going for a specific market. No one complains when shoe companies make a woman's shoe, just for outdoors, with no raised heel, and added comfort - it doesn't sell as well as your basics, but it's necessary for a specific need.

 

No one NEEDS Bud Light Lime, and yet they make it. It fits a specific type, that might not otherwise buy beer..

 

Why is Vision, considered well written and selling about 20,000 copies a month considered a 'good' thing, and Ms. Marvel, considered an 'agenda' and selling about 20,000 a month? They're both just aimed at a specific demographic.

 

The mentality of 'It has to sell 1000,000 copies or it's a failure' is what has plagued this business since the 90's. Do you kick the $1 box buyer out of your store?

 

For retailers, especially one's who tire of it or remember how easy it was in the old days, it's tough. Marvel has x amount of titles in the top ten and you could just order x% amount over subscription and sell those right off the rack - in today's market it takes more work for the retailer. There are more titles, more publishers, aimed at more of a diverse audience, that sells in lower numbers.

 

And the old school fans complain - "Why is their a Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur?! Why isn't there more books like what (Stan Lee/Jim Shooter/Tom DeFalco/JMS/Joe Quesada?whatever was big when I grew up)???"

 

Get over it. Comics will NEVER be the same as they were when you were 13-14 years old. Move on. Or expand you mind. There are plenty of quality comic book still out there. Try reading something where the characters don't wear spandex.

 

The 'old school' direct market ISN'T growing. The diversity of Comics Reading IS.

 

People can talk all they want about, 'if Marvel and DC would do comics like the old days, something geared at an all ages readership, it'd SELL!' - well...they DO. And they DON'T.

 

Never have.

 

Batman Adventures - didn't sell. One of the best written, best drawn, highly acclaimed series of all times. They tried rebooting it and rebooting it.... didn't sell. And that was freakin' BATMAM!!!

 

Marvel's current Avengers, Spider-man, GOTG all ages monthly comic books - don't sell. Doesn't even show up in the Top 300 every month.

One of the best comics out there for all ages, Scooby Doo Team Up - recent issues had team ups with the Marvel Family, the Flash, Hawkman and HawkGirl - fun stuff, but other than when Harley Quinn showed up last year, no one really buys it (about 7000 copies a month- I usually sell about 6 copies a month of it).

 

No support from the 'old school'.

 

So what does a publisher do with a declining market of whiny fanboys that talk a lot and don't buy anything?

 

EXPAND the customer base by diversifying. (And watch the fanboys complain even more)

 

Digital Sales has shown a different type of buyer. Amazon Sales show a different type of buyer. Marvel Unlimited, according to Marvel, tracks a diverse type of reader (who buys the subscription service).

 

And we don't see the SALES from DIGITAL on these books (Ms Marvel is one of Marvel's best sellers on Comixology on a regular basis), or the Amazon book sales, or the tracking numbers for what is read on Marvel Unlimited. OR the overseas numbers.

 

All we see is the DIAMOND numbers and figure that tells the whole story.

 

It doesn't.

 

And why should I CARE about the subjective 'good' of the art or story. Am I a retailer or fanboy? I work in an industry where X-Force #1 is one of the best SELLING comic books of ALL TIME and put under the microscope of artistic critique, it's a piece of crap.

 

I'm a book seller. I sell books. To all different types of people. I like some of those books, don't like some of those books, not interested in some of those books, nowhere near read most of those books, but very much in the market to sell ANY and ALL that I have in the store or can order.

 

Would I love it if people bought more Charles Burns, or Dan Clowes, or Brubaker/Phillips? Sure. That'd be great. But I don't need that validation that I PERSONALLY think it's great. And I don't sit around complaining because they don't. Who cares? Buy what you personally like. It's a big world. I don't have time to paint it.

 

As Comic Book Retailers, we need to get past the 'old school' mentality of a mom and pop shop and order what our wide range of customers want. The loudest, most vocal customers are not our only customers. There are sales to be made from all different kinds of customers.

It takes more work. It takes more time. It takes more of an understanding of retail.

 

But it's either that or help make the direct market extinct even faster.

 

The thing about titles like Batman Adventures or X-Men Adventures not selling, here's the thing. In the 70's and 80's it was Batman, Detective Comics, Amazing Spider-Man, Uncanny X-Men that were the all ages titles, they had the imdustries top talent. They were true "all ages" titles, as they had always been since the founding of both companies, that's what kids wanted. Then the violence and sex came in those titles and they shuffled the kids off to the side with special "adventures" imprints based on Saturday Morning Cartoons, and I wouldn't even know how good they were, because as a kid at the time when these titles first came out, and as someone who was used to reading Detective Comics and Uncanny X-Men, I felt like I was being talked down to. "Here's your kid mess now get away from the serious grownup comics about a guy in a bat costume who beats upmusclemen..."

 

I didn't buy them, I didn't read them. I wanted the real thing,

 

Kids know when their intelligence is being insulted, they don't need to be talked down to. On top of that, all ages comics don't have to be kid mess, they can be good. They can be entertaining for adults. They can be quality material, renown and award winning stuff that would remain in print for generations as classics of the medium. Marvel and DC wouldn't lose their core audience because literally nothing they could possibly do will make them lose their core audience. The only two possible outcomes is sales remain stagnant but the series becomes more renown, or sales increase. Those are the only options I see.

[dupont2005]

It seems that a single movie that performs (even mediocre) at the box office probably generates more corporate profits than the entire floppy division.

 

If so, comics might develop simply into a 'loss leader', something that loses money but keeps other divisions rolling in clover.

 

Perhaps there's even enough sales of merchandise related to the new unfamiliar Benetton rainbow of characters Hulk, Spidey, IM, Thor and for worldwide sales and future global merchandising of action figures, dolls, shirts, cartoons and movies, etc. to overcome any drop in comic sales, which do not generate even close to the profits realized in other depts.

 

[Please don't infer that I'm cool with milking the past characters as a cash cow until the cow is dead.]

i think if it ever got to the point that Marvel and DC weren't turning a profit from publishing comics, and I think we are still a LONG way off from that happening, rather than continue to churn out comics to 20,000 readers to promote a movie that needs to sell thirty million tickets to break even, they'd just license the comics out to Boom or Dynamite or IDW and call it a day, like Disney used to do with their own properties.

[Buzzetta]

I am going to say something that may not be popular with some. Oh well.

 

 

OMG?!?! Even Steve Rogers can be African American ?!?! Why yes. Yes he can!

What is the core character trait of Captain America? My answer is patriotism toward the people of the nation (not always the government) and that he is a man out of time. Can Steve Rogers be an African American? My answer is YES and I am not talking about Isaiah Bradley, I am talking about Steve Rogers. Eventually IF these characters are even around in another 50-75-100 years, they may drastically shift the Marvel Timeline to be more relevant. Maybe Steve Rogers is a Gulf War Veteran that is frozen in time. If that is the case why can't Steve Rogers be African American? So long as he (or maybe even 'she'), is a patriot from a bygone era that is also someone out of time... Captain America 'works'.

 

Why Tony Stark HAS to be Iron Man (for the 'right now')

RIGHT NOW though, I do not believe that Iron Man works as anyone else BUT Tony Stark since the character is primarily popular again due to the Cinematic Universe. RDJ has created such a persona as Tony Stark that when people seek out more Iron Man material they specifically want someone like RDJ. Unfortunately for Disney / Marvel, I believe they have backed themselves into a corner with this character. The only way Iron is not Tony Stark is because Disney recognizes the corner they are in and they need to wean people off of the character. RDJ IS Tony Stark and Tony Stark IS RDJ. Maybe RiRi is around though to test the waters for a future without RDJ. For now though, Marvel needs a Tony Stark as an active Iron Man for synergy across their business platforms.

 

So what is Marvel trying to do?

The point is... that Marvel is not making comics for YOU the reader they already have. You will complain and moan but you will still find something to buy and read or you will stop buying comics altogether. Marvel actually doesn't care. I have news for some of you. No matter what Marvel publishes, eventually you are going to stop buying comics altogether. Either you are complaining that the titles are "more of the same" or that "they changed the characters and destroyed your childhood." Marvel is trying to attract the future because no matter what... the present becomes the past.

 

Don't believe me? Marvel has already created a platform to deal with a world where there are no more printed comics. They have their own netflix platform for comics of their own original content. (Marvel Unlimited)

[F For Fake]

I don't know how many of you guys have kids. But it's impossible to find any X-Men toys these days.

 

Because Fox gets a cut they don't want to make them anymore, no matter how well they'd sell.

 

I had to go to amazon to find a halfway decent Wolverine. Forget finding Cyclops, Gene Grey or Professor X in Target, Toys R Us or Walmart.

 

You're in luck! A new wave of X-Men Legends is out. Includes Brown Wolverine, Phoenix, Deadpool, Cable, Rogue, Kitty Pryde, Ice-Man, and a Juggernaut BAF. Best Legends wave in forever!