Marvel UK Price Variants 16 16

[Get Marwood & I]

Shame to see this though, after all I've tried to do here - CGC lumping Price Variants (UK/Canadian/Australian) in with international / 'foreign comics':

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/10086/international-comics/

[Pantodude]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:38 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Shame to see this though, after all I've tried to do here

If only we could persuade CGC (and you?) to have CGC consult you on how accurately to classify/describe all these versions of books?  Sigh.  

Edited April 21, 2022 by Pantodude

[Get Marwood & I]

On 4/21/2022 at 5:52 PM, Pantodude said:

If only we could persuade CGC (and you?) to have CGC consult you on how accurately to classify/describe all these versions of books?  Sigh.  

In addition to my threads and journal pages on their forum, I have liaised directly with Matt Nelson and - with his blessing some time back - put together a guide that I prepared describing what Price Variants are. I've sent them descriptions showing to how to differentiate key pence books in relation to internal content. And on several occasions I have offered my services as a sounding board. 

[Pantodude]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:59 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

In addition to my threads and journal pages on their forum, I have liaised directly with Matt Nelson and - at his request some time back - put together a guide that I prepared describing what Price Variants are. I've sent them descriptions showing to how to differentiate key pence books in relation to internal content. And on several occasions I have offered my services as a sounding board. 

It would appear to be such a simple thing for them to at least run an announcement like this past you, just for comment, especially since, apparently, you have been so cooperative and forthcoming with the necessary information/expertise.  

[Aman619]

I just read the announcement hoping you'd all be pleased at progress, but seems your number one issue hasn't been resolved.  Still no foreign titles in the database for searching.  I haven't caught up on all the posts here today, but IS there a database out there that has all the foreign titles and issue numbers and US key story reprints already completed?  Seems to me that with the research done, CGC could be persuaded to work out a perfect solution that's searchable the way they have it now but also under each individual foreign title and issue#... The database could be hosted so that collectors can check it first to figure out the CGC listing time and issue and country.

Seeing the scans in the announcement though is very exciting.  Im more interested in them than I was... or though I would be,  These can be the new hot variants!

[Get Marwood & I]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:12 PM, Pantodude said:

It would appear to be such a simple thing for them to at least run an announcement like this past you, just for comment, especially since, apparently, you have been so cooperative and forthcoming with the necessary information/expertise.  

I don't think it's like that, really. I'm not that important, despite all the research. 

It is what it is. Best leave it now.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:21 PM, Aman619 said:

I just read the announcement hoping you'd all be pleased at progress, but seems your number one issue hasn't been resolved.  Still no foreign titles in the database for searching.  I haven't caught up on all the posts here today, but IS there a database out there that has all the foreign titles and issue numbers and US key story reprints already completed?  Seems to me that with the research done, CGC could be persuaded to work out a perfect solution that's searchable the way they have it now but also under each individual foreign title and issue#... The database could be hosted so that collectors can check it first to figure out the CGC listing time and issue and country.

Seeing the scans in the announcement though is very exciting.  Im more interested in them than I was... or though I would be,  These can be the new hot variants!

Could you discuss it over here please, Aman:

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/488611-a-discussion-about-how-cgc-label-non-us-publications-which-reprint-reproduce-original-us-comic-content/#comments

Cheers

[Steven Coates]

Has anyone seen the print error cover of Fantastic Four #110 with a UKPV cover price? There is a correctly printed UKPV cover, but I have not seen one otherwise.. A very small polling sample of the US eBay auctions give a 12:1 relationship. So, the error was corrected but not early enough to trash the number already printed. It makes me wonder if the printers buried the misprints amongst the correct version or maybe MARVEL did it.

Steve

print

[Get Marwood & I]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:34 PM, Steven Coates said:

Has anyone seen the print error cover of Fantastic Four #110 with a UKPV cover price?

I've owned two cents error copies in my time but have never seen a UKPV error example. Logic suggests there wouldn't be one. If the cents were run first, you'd expect the print error to have started the run, and then been corrected. If pence were run first, the error would have had to have occurred when the plates were changed for the cents copies, otherwise there would be pence errors out there.

Likely printing order:

1. Cents error
2. Corrected to cents regular
3. Plate change to pence

Expect a pence error any minute then. 

[Steven Coates]

Well! That got a chuckle. Your order of events is exactly what I would expect. Now if I could only learn to expect the unexpected.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 4/21/2022 at 8:35 PM, Steven Coates said:

Well! That got a chuckle. Your order of events is exactly what I would expect. Now if I could only learn to expect the unexpected.

It can happen. And the Spanish Inquisition too. 

[Steven Coates]

I got another one. Has anyone seen the correct UKPV cover of Fantastic Four #119. The print error is adjacent to the  "F"  in Fantastic, where the area should be red it is yellow. A search of eBay shows about even split (9:8) for the US cover print run and all (3) the UKPV's to have the printing error. Which puts a wrench into expectations of printing order.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=Fantastic+Four+%23119&_sacat=259104&LH_TitleDesc=0&rt=nc&_odkw=comic+books&_osacat=73&_dcat=73&Publisher=Harvey

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=fantastic+four+%23119&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=6

Steve

[Pantodude]

On 4/21/2022 at 7:02 PM, Steven Coates said:

I got another one. Has anyone seen the correct UKPV cover of Fantastic Four #119. The print error is adjacent to the  "F"  in Fantastic, where the area should be red it is yellow. A search of eBay shows about even split (9:8) for the US cover print run and all (3) the UKPV's to have the printing error. Which puts a wrench into expectations of printing order.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=Fantastic+Four+%23119&_sacat=259104&LH_TitleDesc=0&rt=nc&_odkw=comic+books&_osacat=73&_dcat=73&Publisher=Harvey

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=fantastic+four+%23119&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=6

Steve

You not only found FF119 UKPVs with what was an error associated with the start of a print run, but also that ALL of FF119's UKPVs happened to have the error.  Very interesting indeed.  

Edited April 21, 2022 by Pantodude

[rakehell]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:21 PM, Aman619 said:

I haven't caught up on all the posts here today, but IS there a database out there that has all the foreign titles and issue numbers and US key story reprints already completed?

There is. It's called the Grand Comics Database. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 4/22/2022 at 12:02 AM, Steven Coates said:

I got another one. Has anyone seen the correct UKPV cover of Fantastic Four #119. The print error is adjacent to the  "F"  in Fantastic, where the area should be red it is yellow. A search of eBay shows about even split (9:8) for the US cover print run and all (3) the UKPV's to have the printing error. Which puts a wrench into expectations of printing order.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=Fantastic+Four+%23119&_sacat=259104&LH_TitleDesc=0&rt=nc&_odkw=comic+books&_osacat=73&_dcat=73&Publisher=Harvey

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=fantastic+four+%23119&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=6

Steve

I think I've posted about this one before Steven during one of the 'what came first' discussions as I have these images in my 'Printing Order' related Marvel file:

I forget what I said before, but they sort of show the progression - colour starts to go during the cents run, goes, and is then gone for the UK copies. That certainly suggests pence printed last.

Like I've said many times - the order of printing likely changed during the 20 years of UKPVs. I have examples where cents looks first, and some pence (mostly early sixties). But it doesn't really matter, does it, if you consider books from the same print run as all being first editions. I love the speculation though. It's hard when you have no direct experience of the printing practices of the day.

[Steven Coates]

Thanks, you got my thinking straighten out. And with some additional investigation and re-creation I think you are correct. I post the following at the GCD main discussion group. WARNING: the GCD uses "British" instead of UKPV.

Fantastic Four #119
https://www.comics.org/issue/24878/?
Currently there are 3 covers in the GCD. One is the British variant and the other two are mis-identified. The issue identified as "Color-Correct Logo Variant" is the actual base issue and the base is a print error.

It is an unusual printing error, as it a fault in the Magenta plate and the following illustrates the the reasoning
.
All images were gathered from eBay. A cross check with Heritage Auctions revealed no new information, but did confirm the eBay images are common.
Due to the image sources and the age of the printed material, considerable variance should be expected and considered approximate only.
Using digital RGB photographs of CMYK printed material, converting to CMYK and then examining the colour channels can only lead to approximations of the actual printing process.

Clip 1: shows the intended colours for the cover. There are numerous copies in evidence.
Clips 2 through 8 are Clip 1 converted to CMYK and channel separated.
Clip 2 is CYAN and BLACK.
Clip 3 is CYAN only and shows the density of the colour application to the paper.
Clip 4 is MAGENTA and BLACK.
Clip 5 is MEGENTA only and shows the density of the colour application to the paper.
Clip 6 is YELLOW and BLACK.
Clip 7 is YELLOW only and shows the density of the colour application to the paper.
Clip 8 is BLACK only and shows the density of the colour application to the paper.
Clip 9 shows the smallest bit of breakdown in the MEGENTA plate. It is difficult to see at the current resolution.
Clips 10 through 12 show a similar area of deterioration. There are numerous examples showing the same area.
Clip 13 shows the spread of the deterioration. There are many examples available.
Clip 14 shows the same area of deterioration on all the British (UKPV) covers.
Clip 15 shows the deterioration to the Magenta plate could have been much greater.

The printing process would have applied the inks in the CMYK order and as the MAGENTA plate was deteriorating it would not apply ink to the area, leaving it untouched and allowing the YELLOW plate to fill the area.
The MAGENTA plate deterioration could have been the metal plate losing material in the area or some foreign substance was causing the ink to be repelled and the foreign substance spreading as the press was running. The area could have increased considerably but not extensive enough to affect the adjacent MAGENTA areas.

It is fairly obvious the British (UKPV) cover copies were printed last, with what appears to be a BLACK plate only replacement.

I will be moving the cover images and once approved delete the "Color-Correct Logo Variant" and I will add notes to both the base and the British variant about the print error.

Steve

 

[Steven Coates]

On the Fantastic Four #110 mis-print cover, I did some color channels on it and was able to re-order the CYAN and MAGENTA channels to get proper finished colours. Such a colour plate order would have been an easy and inexpensive fix.

Steve

[Get Marwood & I]

On 4/23/2022 at 2:17 AM, Steven Coates said:

Thanks, you got my thinking straighten out. And with some additional investigation and re-creation I think you are correct. I post the following at the GCD main discussion group. WARNING: the GCD uses "British" instead of UKPV.

Fantastic Four #119
https://www.comics.org/issue/24878/?
Currently there are 3 covers in the GCD. One is the British variant and the other two are mis-identified. The issue identified as "Color-Correct Logo Variant" is the actual base issue and the base is a print error.

It is an unusual printing error, as it a fault in the Magenta plate and the following illustrates the the reasoning
.
All images were gathered from eBay. A cross check with Heritage Auctions revealed no new information, but did confirm the eBay images are common.
Due to the image sources and the age of the printed material, considerable variance should be expected and considered approximate only.
Using digital RGB photographs of CMYK printed material, converting to CMYK and then examining the colour channels can only lead to approximations of the actual printing process.

Clip 1: shows the intended colours for the cover. There are numerous copies in evidence.
Clips 2 through 8 are Clip 1 converted to CMYK and channel separated.
Clip 2 is CYAN and BLACK.
Clip 3 is CYAN only and shows the density of the colour application to the paper.
Clip 4 is MAGENTA and BLACK.
Clip 5 is MEGENTA only and shows the density of the colour application to the paper.
Clip 6 is YELLOW and BLACK.
Clip 7 is YELLOW only and shows the density of the colour application to the paper.
Clip 8 is BLACK only and shows the density of the colour application to the paper.
Clip 9 shows the smallest bit of breakdown in the MEGENTA plate. It is difficult to see at the current resolution.
Clips 10 through 12 show a similar area of deterioration. There are numerous examples showing the same area.
Clip 13 shows the spread of the deterioration. There are many examples available.
Clip 14 shows the same area of deterioration on all the British (UKPV) covers.
Clip 15 shows the deterioration to the Magenta plate could have been much greater.

The printing process would have applied the inks in the CMYK order and as the MAGENTA plate was deteriorating it would not apply ink to the area, leaving it untouched and allowing the YELLOW plate to fill the area.
The MAGENTA plate deterioration could have been the metal plate losing material in the area or some foreign substance was causing the ink to be repelled and the foreign substance spreading as the press was running. The area could have increased considerably but not extensive enough to affect the adjacent MAGENTA areas.

It is fairly obvious the British (UKPV) cover copies were printed last, with what appears to be a BLACK plate only replacement.

I will be moving the cover images and once approved delete the "Color-Correct Logo Variant" and I will add notes to both the base and the British variant about the print error.

Steve

 

Nicely done Steven 

[Steven Coates]

Thanks Steve.

It didn't get a warm reception with a couple of GCD members. One responded with "Perhaps reasonable but certainly wouldn't agree with that conclusion." and another with " ...Perhaps another explanation could be the magenta plate was remade and during that process one of the masks was disturbed on the composites, the operator didn’t notice, and a new negative/positive was made to burn to plate?" The first is rather dismissive and the second doesn't understand the intermediate print error or the cost of re-shooting and producing a new plate.

But, I did get the print error removed as a variant and the USP and UKPV fixed with notes about the print error.

Steve

[Get Marwood & I]

On 4/24/2022 at 6:04 PM, Steven Coates said:

Thanks Steve.

It didn't get a warm reception with a couple of GCD members. One responded with "Perhaps reasonable but certainly wouldn't agree with that conclusion." and another with " ...Perhaps another explanation could be the magenta plate was remade and during that process one of the masks was disturbed on the composites, the operator didn’t notice, and a new negative/positive was made to burn to plate?" The first is rather dismissive and the second doesn't understand the intermediate print error or the cost of re-shooting and producing a new plate.

But, I did get the print error removed as a variant and the USP and UKPV fixed with notes about the print error.

Steve

People are afraid of what they don't understand Steven. In this case, a challenge to their 'authority' I shouldn't wonder.