Marvel's Falling Sales 6 6

[kav]

They're called little people. And it's not one armed it's bilaterally challenged!

[Readcomix]

People, let's start from the beginning...

[Get Marwood & I]

6 hours ago, Readcomix said:

People, let's start from the beginning...

"Look at this print!! It's impossible! Nothing can be so huge!!"

"Torr can!"

"Oh, right, fair point"

"Quiet!! Torr might be anywhere!"

"Well pardon me but I think that's a little silly if you don't mind me saying"

"Quiet!!"

"No, I won't be quiet. Have you seen how big Torr is? There's no way he could be 'anywhere'!"

"What?"

"Well, could he be in a phone box? Could he be in my Mum's car? I don't think so"

"For chrissakes be quiet!!"

"Oh, here we go, one little difference of opinion and Mr Poopy Pants comes out. That's you all over Barry"

[ComicConnoisseur]

It is really simple as to what happened.

I think the bottom line is most people want

Spider-Man =  Peter Parker

Captain America = Steve Rogers

Iron Man = Tony Stark

Hulk = Bruce Banner 

Wolverine = Logan

X-Men = Cyclops,Storm,Night Crawler,Professor X

Fantastic Four = Ben,Reed,Sue and Johnny.

Those characters put Marvel on the map and they have been treated lousy over the past few years.

It is like when customers  pay big money to see the Patriots and Cavaliers play they expect to see Tom Brady and LeBron James play, and not their back-ups. 

Oh wonder their sales are down as this thread is called Marvel's falling sales.

A terrible business move by Marvel that has now caught up with them as the fads have now worn off.

Marvel Comics needs new leadership in the comics division.

 

 

 

 

 

[Readcomix]

2 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

It is really simple as to what happened.

I think the bottom line is most people want

Spider-Man =  Peter Parker

Captain America = Steve Rogers

Iron Man = Tony Stark

Hulk = Bruce Banner 

Wolverine = Logan

X-Men = Cyclops,Storm,Night Crawler,Professor X

Fantastic Four = Ben,Reed,Sue and Johnny.

Those characters put Marvel on the map and they have been treated lousy over the past few years.

It is like when customers  pay big money to see the Patriots and Cavaliers play they expect to see Tom Brady and LeBron James play, and not their back-ups. 

Oh wonder their sales are down as this thread is called Marvel's falling sales.

A terrible business move by Marvel that has now caught up with them as the fads have now worn off.

Marvel Comics needs new leadership in the comics division.

 

 

 

 

 

I think this is all true, based on conversations with collectors and LCS owners in the northeast.

i also don't doubt there's stores out there with stories of happy new fans for the new characters.  They just seem to be far fewer than the unhappy fans. (Yes, negatives are usually louder than the contented, but that's separate from shop owners saying these things don't sell well for me.)

Heck, I liked Strikeforce Morituri. We've all liked titles that flopped because there were not enough who liked them as we did.

When you strip away everything else (stated publishers' goals for the characters, etc) the root problems are similar. A big enough fan base could not be built fast enough (or perhaps at all).

I was just trying to lighten things up with the early Marvel #1 from 1961.

[Get Marwood & I]

6 minutes ago, Readcomix said:

I think this is all true, based on conversations with collectors and LCS owners in the northeast.

i also don't doubt there's stores out there with stories of happy new fans for the new characters.  They just seem to be far fewer than the unhappy fans. (Yes, negatives are usually louder than the contented, but that's separate from shop owners saying these things don't sell well for me.)

Heck, I liked Strikeforce Morituri. We've all liked titles that flopped because there were not enough who liked them as we did.

When you strip away everything else (stated publishers' goals for the characters, etc) the root problems are similar. A big enough fan base could not be built fast enough (or perhaps at all).

I was just trying to lighten things up with the early Marvel #1 from 1961.

So was I with my cover commentary. Watching those two duke it out yesterday was entertaining to a point, but also slightly unedifying. 

[lizards2]

34 minutes ago, Marwood & I said:

So was I with my cover commentary. Watching those two duke it out yesterday was entertaining to a point, but also slightly unedifying. 

We need someone to post the first appearance of BIGGG DIKKK to put everyone back in their places.

[Get Marwood & I]

10 minutes ago, lizards2 said:

We need someone to post the first appearance of BIGGG DIKKK to put everyone back in their places.

Too many jokes, too little time (to post them in between time outs) ?

[Prince Namor]

13 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

It is really simple as to what happened.

I think the bottom line is most people want

Spider-Man =  Peter Parker

Captain America = Steve Rogers

Iron Man = Tony Stark

Hulk = Bruce Banner 

Wolverine = Logan

X-Men = Cyclops,Storm,Night Crawler,Professor X

Fantastic Four = Ben,Reed,Sue and Johnny.

Those characters put Marvel on the map and they have been treated lousy over the past few years.

It is like when customers  pay big money to see the Patriots and Cavaliers play they expect to see Tom Brady and LeBron James play, and not their back-ups. 

Oh wonder their sales are down as this thread is called Marvel's falling sales.

A terrible business move by Marvel that has now caught up with them as the fads have now worn off.

Marvel Comics needs new leadership in the comics division.

 

 

 

 

 

I certainly HEAR that from a lot of people online. But are they people who've been buying the comics in the first place? Or just people who 'don't like the idea'?

Thor has remained one of Marvel's best selling regular titles, throughout Jane Foster's handling of the hammer, and through the first 5 issues, Riri's Iron Man is right behind it. 

If this is all such a failure, why are those two books, two of Marvel's better selling regular titles?

If 'what this hobby needs' are the 'original heroes written like they were before', then why has no one brought up the Avengers .1 series, currently written by Mark Waid and drawn by Barry Kitson, done in retro Marvel style?

A comic that finished outside the Top 100 and was outsold by such top notch talent as Totally Awesome Hulk and Gwenpool. 

I thought it was great!

Come to think of it, why does classic comic book fare like that Avengers series, Batman adventures, Avengers assemble, Spider-man Year one, etc. always get cancelled?

Comics specifically geared toward telling classic stores, with the original characters, aimed at that specific audience?

Because they don't sell. 

But isn't that what everyone is clamoring for?

No. what everyone is 'clamoring' for is the same feeling reading comics they got when they first discovered them. 

And that feeling is never coming back. 

Marvel gears its comic line toward the people they've always geared it towards: The people who want multiple titles a month, who have to get the crossovers and all the event books, etc. 

No matter how small that pool of people gets, they still jump when Marvel has an event or a new #1 or a controversy. 

And that's who Marvel caters to.

The people online who complain about what Marvel's doing but don't buy anything anyway?

Why would they care about them?

Because, beyond the fact they aren't and won't spend any money with Marvel anyway, they're asking for one thing that Marvel will NEVER be able to provide them: The same feeling they got when they first started reading comics. 

That's one thing the 'House of Ideas' CAN'T replicate. 

[Prince Namor]

In my shop, ALL of the people who complain about Jane Foster as Thor and Riri as Iron Man, don't subscribe to those titles, and never have subscribed to those titles. 

Iron Man was one of my best books when Marvel rebooted it, for the first few issues and then fell back to its original numbers (my core Iron Man collectors) by issue #5. 

Those core readers have stayed with it, through Riri and say they've enjoyed it but they know eventually Stark will be Iron Man again. 

My Thor readers LOVE the book, even long time Thor fans. They know it's an ongoing story and a lot will eventually revert back, but they love how it's been done.

The people who complain are the ones longing for the good old days, which is whenever THEY discovered comics. 

30-40 years old? 90's Marvel was the best!

40-50 years old? 90's Marvel sucked! Secret Wars era!

50-60's? Secret Wars sucks! Bronze Age rules!

60's up? Bronze Age was a last hurrah, the Silver Age was the most classic!

How does Marvel meet those needs? They can't. 

Some of the complainers don't even read Marvel or DC anymore! They're looking for nostalgia recreated. 

Not happening. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Chuck Gower

[OV]

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

I certainly HEAR that from a lot of people online. But are they people who've been buying the comics in the first place? Or just people who 'don't like the idea'?

Thor has remained one of Marvel's best selling regular titles, throughout Jane Foster's handling of the hammer, and through the first 5 issues, Riri's Iron Man is right behind it. 

If this is all such a failure, why are those two books, two of Marvel's better selling regular titles?

If 'what this hobby needs' are the 'original heroes written like they were before', then why has no one brought up the Avengers .1 series, currently written by Mark Waid and drawn by Barry Kitson, done in retro Marvel style?

A comic that finished outside the Top 100 and was outsold by such top notch talent as Totally Awesome Hulk and Gwenpool. 

I thought it was great!

Come to think of it, why does classic comic book fare like that Avengers series, Batman adventures, Avengers assemble, Spider-man Year one, etc. always get cancelled?

Comics specifically geared toward telling classic stores, with the original characters, aimed at that specific audience?

Because they don't sell. 

But isn't that what everyone is clamoring for?

No. what everyone is 'clamoring' for is the same feeling reading comics they got when they first discovered them. 

And that feeling is never coming back. 

Marvel gears its comic line toward the people they've always geared it towards: The people who want multiple titles a month, who have to get the crossovers and all the event books, etc. 

No matter how small that pool of people gets, they still jump when Marvel has an event or a new #1 or a controversy. 

And that's who Marvel caters to.

The people online who complain about what Marvel's doing but don't buy anything anyway?

Why would they care about them?

Because, beyond the fact they aren't and won't spend any money with Marvel anyway, they're asking for one thing that Marvel will NEVER be able to provide them: The same feeling they got when they first started reading comics. 

That's one thing the 'House of Ideas' CAN'T replicate. 

This is very insightful and I agree! 

[Eclipse]

Wait a second, when did Rhianna become Iron Man? And what is his secret weapon, his umbrella? eh-eh-eh

[Logan510]

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

In my shop, ALL of the people who complain about Jane Foster as Thor and Riri as Iron Man, don't subscribe to those titles, and never have subscribed to those titles. 

Iron Man was one of my best books when Marvel rebooted it, for the first few issues and then fell back to its original numbers (my core Iron Man collectors) by issue #5. 

Those core readers have stayed with it, through Riri and say they've enjoyed it but they know eventually Stark will be Iron Man again. 

My Thor readers LOVE the book, even long time Thor fans. They know it's an ongoing story and a lot will eventually revert back, but they love how it's been done.

The people who complain are the ones longing for the good old days, which is whenever THEY discovered comics. 

30-40 years old? 90's Marvel was the best!

40-50 years old? 90's Marvel sucked! Secret Wars era!

50-60's? Secret Wars sucks! Bronze Age rules!

60's up? Bronze Age was a last hurrah, the Silver Age was the most classic!

How does Marvel meet those needs? They can't. 

Some of the complainers don't even read Marvel or DC anymore! They're looking for nostalgia recreated. 

Not happening. 

Debbie Downer ?

[Prince Namor]

20 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Debbie Downer ?

 Well believe me, if Marvel COULD, and make money from it they would. 

Though even THAT's debatable, because their reprint tpb part of their company is nowhere near as strong as it should be. Except as digital. 

[Ken Aldred]

3 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

 

Thor has remained one of Marvel's best selling regular titles, throughout Jane Foster's handling of the hammer, and through the first 5 issues, Riri's Iron Man is right behind it. 

If this is all such a failure, why are those two books, two of Marvel's better selling regular titles?

 

I'm only familiar with the Jane Foster Thor, but possibly because, like the Muslim Ms Marvel, they're actually quite good reads?

That said, I'm reading them digitally a while after the release of the physical copy version, and they still don't prompt me enough to want to go back to rushing in to the LCS each and every week.

[lizards2]

1 minute ago, Ken Aldred said:

3 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

 

Thor has remained one of Marvel's best selling regular titles, throughout Jane Foster's handling of the hammer, and through the first 5 issues, Riri's Iron Man is right behind it. 

If this is all such a failure, why are those two books, two of Marvel's better selling regular titles?

 

I'm only familiar with the Jane Foster Thor, but possibly because, like the Muslim Ms Marvel, they're actually quite good reads?

That said, I'm reading them digitally a while after the release of the physical copy version, and they still don't prompt me enough to want to go back to rushing in to the LCS each and every week.

They really need a Muslim Thor.

[rjrjr]

3 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

I certainly HEAR that from a lot of people online. But are they people who've been buying the comics in the first place? Or just people who 'don't like the idea'?

Thor has remained one of Marvel's best selling regular titles, throughout Jane Foster's handling of the hammer, and through the first 5 issues, Riri's Iron Man is right behind it. 

If this is all such a failure, why are those two books, two of Marvel's better selling regular titles?

If 'what this hobby needs' are the 'original heroes written like they were before', then why has no one brought up the Avengers .1 series, currently written by Mark Waid and drawn by Barry Kitson, done in retro Marvel style?

A comic that finished outside the Top 100 and was outsold by such top notch talent as Totally Awesome Hulk and Gwenpool. 

I thought it was great!

Come to think of it, why does classic comic book fare like that Avengers series, Batman adventures, Avengers assemble, Spider-man Year one, etc. always get cancelled?

Comics specifically geared toward telling classic stores, with the original characters, aimed at that specific audience?

Because they don't sell. 

But isn't that what everyone is clamoring for?

No. what everyone is 'clamoring' for is the same feeling reading comics they got when they first discovered them. 

And that feeling is never coming back. 

Marvel gears its comic line toward the people they've always geared it towards: The people who want multiple titles a month, who have to get the crossovers and all the event books, etc. 

No matter how small that pool of people gets, they still jump when Marvel has an event or a new #1 or a controversy. 

And that's who Marvel caters to.

The people online who complain about what Marvel's doing but don't buy anything anyway?

Why would they care about them?

Because, beyond the fact they aren't and won't spend any money with Marvel anyway, they're asking for one thing that Marvel will NEVER be able to provide them: The same feeling they got when they first started reading comics. 

That's one thing the 'House of Ideas' CAN'T replicate. 

+1

[Prince Namor]

29 minutes ago, Ken Aldred said:

I'm only familiar with the Jane Foster Thor, but possibly because, like the Muslim Ms Marvel, they're actually quite good reads?

That said, I'm reading them digitally a while after the release of the physical copy version, and they still don't prompt me enough to want to go back to rushing in to the LCS each and every week.

The one thing about people who read comics digitally that you can completely 100% count on is that they're doing it because they actually like to read the comics. 

Buying multiple copies, collecting #1's and 1st appearances, variant covers... none of it really plays a part in digital readership, so it'd be great if we could see those numbers. 

We'd have a great idea of what people actually read. 

[fmaz]

Art styles change, but the common denominator between good comics from any era is and always will be, good CHARACTER-BASED story telling.   For whatever reason, Marvel is just at a very low point with that right now.

These "legacy" characters, as they're called are not the fault at all. In fact, some of the changes Marvel has made has led to some of its only really good story telling in the last few years.  People went crazy with the whole Superior Spider-Man thing, but for those who read it, it was really well done.  Why? Because it was a year plus character study of Doc Ock. It was fascinating.  And while I'm not sure where this whole cosmic cube re-writting of Cap's past is going.. I know that A) it's been interesting so far, and B) I'm curious where it goes and C) it'll all get fixed eventually so I'm on board for the ride. 

The issue when people talk about "the good old days" is that some dismiss it as a desire for simple art, corny dialog, etc.  No.   It's simply a desire for character-based story telling.  That was Marvel's strength.   

There's not better example of this than looking at the Avengers.

The Avengers used to be a team book that was about relationships as much as it was about big, epic cosmic battles.  The "mask off" drama of the Marvel books was what people enjoyed.  You saw Vision and the Scarlet Witch becoming a couple.  A bromance between Beast and Wonder Man.  Early days saw conflict between Cap and Hawkeye.  All the Hank/Jan drama, etc. 

Now?  There's a new Avengers title every month.  A new team just appears for no rhyme or reason. They are just together and they are in the midst of battle.  And they fight until that title is cancelled and replaced by the next volume.  Plots have become incredibly dense... which is always what happens in books where they forget about character development.  With convoluted plots, there's only room for fighting and then exposition to explain the plot details.  And then maybe throw in a joke or two so it seems like they are still the same characters we knew.

In this world where Marvel is having issue connecting with character right now, is it any wonder that they had trouble selling Fantastic Four titles at the end? That book is ALL about character ... or at least it's supposed to be.  Hopefully it will be again.

The main Spider-Man title has been pretty good in the post-Superior era...but even there, that book now contains such a small percentage of Peter Parker each month it's hard to remember that it's Spider-Man and not Iron Man.

My point is this - we all talk about "the good ol days" with lots of stuff.  Movies, TV, music, etc.   Because our selective memory only remembers the best of those eras.  There were lousy books in the silver age, and some real clunkers in the bronze age, let me tell you.

However, during those eras, Marvel worked very hard to build what felt like a connected universe through all it's books by focusing on the characters themselves, and not the plots.    Today, if you want to read that kind of book, you can pick up some of the excellent stuff that DC is putting out right now because they're writing the heck out of their books at the moment.  And that's why I think the wheel will spin back and Marvel will get this figured out again too.  Just hope that it is sooner than later.

 

[Ken Aldred]

4 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

 

... But isn't that what everyone is clamoring for?

No. what everyone is 'clamoring' for is the same feeling reading comics they got when they first discovered them. 

And that feeling is never coming back...

 

.... they're asking for one thing that Marvel will NEVER be able to provide them: The same feeling they got when they first started reading comics. 

 

That's one thing the 'House of Ideas' CAN'T replicate. 

I wouldn’t dispute for a second that truly regaining the naive, wide-eyed, euphoric response experienced as a kid when I first started reading comics would be somewhat difficult to replicate.  That said, I enjoy reading something new, which is well-written and well-drawn, in order to at least try to sense some of the unfamiliarity, freshness and energy that I associate with reading Silver and Bronze Age back in the seventies.  That’s good enough for me, at this stage.