Marvel's Falling Sales 6 6

[drotto]

I think the main issue I have with the current style of comic writing is , like a lot of TV, it has become almost overly serialized.   For some reason this does not bother me with TV shows, because I can either bing watch something,  or I am being given a good solider 45 minutes plus of entertainment for low cost.

 

Now put thathe highly serialized model over to floppies and it becomes an issue.  We are paying 3 or 4 bucks for something that can be read in 10 to 15 minutes.   This leads not just to feeling like you are not getting good bang for your buck, but also this feeling that nothing happens in an issue, or even for several issues, while overall the story might be good. The story is then strung out over usually 6 issues, so we are really only getting 2 complete stories per year. Floppies feel like I am getting 15 minutes of a 1 hr show.

 

Now what is a negative for floppies works well for a GN or reading digitally, which essentially encourages bing reading.  You get full stories, where those slow issues get lost in a much larger number of pages. Furthermore, if you only get 2 or maybe 3 GN per year it is not that big a deal, because the number of cliff hanger pages is greatly reduced. Finally, the cost per issue is a non issue, and you get better bang for your buck.

 

So some of the problem may simple come down to what medium that Marvel is truly writing for, and it is GN and digital, not floppies.  Sell monthly issues is just a bonus, because of the die hardship.  What we want for floppies is sharply written stories that fit neatly into 2 maybe 3 issues.  Then every issue feels more eventful, and stories are not dragged out. That style is not compatible with the outlets the market is slowly shifting towards.

[oakman29]

I just realized how much time I'm wasting on here,and it makes me sad.....

[Prince Namor]

39 minutes ago, drotto said:

I think the main issue I have with the current style of comic writing is , like a lot of TV, it has become almost overly serialized.   For some reason this does not bother me with TV shows, because I can either bing watch something,  or I am being given a good solider 45 minutes plus of entertainment for low cost.

You can sort of binge with comics too, by either waiting a few issues to read them or buy them in collected form (tpb's). A lot of readers have gone this route. 

39 minutes ago, drotto said:

 

Now put thathe highly serialized model over to floppies and it becomes an issue.  We are paying 3 or 4 bucks for something that can be read in 10 to 15 minutes.   This leads not just to feeling like you are not getting good bang for your buck, but also this feeling that nothing happens in an issue, or even for several issues, while overall the story might be good. The story is then strung out over usually 6 issues, so we are really only getting 2 complete stories per year. Floppies feel like I am getting 15 minutes of a 1 hr show.

This is perhaps the reason why a lot of Marvel's tpb sales aren't as high as Image and DC's. 

Marvel's focus seems to be more on the buy the issue at $3.99 or (event priced at $4.99, $5.99, $9.99) where they make the most money.

tpb's are almost an after thought.

Which is bad thinking, but more in line with Marvel's thought process that it's the characters that sell it and not the stories. DC and Image have proven otherwise.

39 minutes ago, drotto said:

 

Now what is a negative for floppies works well for a GN or reading digitally, which essentially encourages bing reading.  You get full stories, where those slow issues get lost in a much larger number of pages. Furthermore, if you only get 2 or maybe 3 GN per year it is not that big a deal, because the number of cliff hanger pages is greatly reduced. Finally, the cost per issue is a non issue, and you get better bang for your buck.

Yep. As long as the stories and art are good....

39 minutes ago, drotto said:

 

So some of the problem may simple come down to what medium that Marvel is truly writing for, and it is GN and digital, not floppies.  Sell monthly issues is just a bonus, because of the die hardship.  What we want for floppies is sharply written stories that fit neatly into 2 maybe 3 issues.  Then every issue feels more eventful, and stories are not dragged out. That style is not compatible with the outlets the market is slowly shifting towards.

Yep.

[Prince Namor]

15 hours ago, fmaz said:

Art styles change, but the common denominator between good comics from any era is and always will be, good CHARACTER-BASED story telling.   For whatever reason, Marvel is just at a very low point with that right now.

These "legacy" characters, as they're called are not the fault at all. In fact, some of the changes Marvel has made has led to some of its only really good story telling in the last few years.  People went crazy with the whole Superior Spider-Man thing, but for those who read it, it was really well done.  Why? Because it was a year plus character study of Doc Ock. It was fascinating.  And while I'm not sure where this whole cosmic cube re-writting of Cap's past is going.. I know that A) it's been interesting so far, and B) I'm curious where it goes and C) it'll all get fixed eventually so I'm on board for the ride. 

The issue when people talk about "the good old days" is that some dismiss it as a desire for simple art, corny dialog, etc.  No.   It's simply a desire for character-based story telling.  That was Marvel's strength.   

There's not better example of this than looking at the Avengers.

The Avengers used to be a team book that was about relationships as much as it was about big, epic cosmic battles.  The "mask off" drama of the Marvel books was what people enjoyed.  You saw Vision and the Scarlet Witch becoming a couple.  A bromance between Beast and Wonder Man.  Early days saw conflict between Cap and Hawkeye.  All the Hank/Jan drama, etc. 

Now?  There's a new Avengers title every month.  A new team just appears for no rhyme or reason. They are just together and they are in the midst of battle.  And they fight until that title is cancelled and replaced by the next volume.  Plots have become incredibly dense... which is always what happens in books where they forget about character development.  With convoluted plots, there's only room for fighting and then exposition to explain the plot details.  And then maybe throw in a joke or two so it seems like they are still the same characters we knew.

In this world where Marvel is having issue connecting with character right now, is it any wonder that they had trouble selling Fantastic Four titles at the end? That book is ALL about character ... or at least it's supposed to be.  Hopefully it will be again.

The main Spider-Man title has been pretty good in the post-Superior era...but even there, that book now contains such a small percentage of Peter Parker each month it's hard to remember that it's Spider-Man and not Iron Man.

My point is this - we all talk about "the good ol days" with lots of stuff.  Movies, TV, music, etc.   Because our selective memory only remembers the best of those eras.  There were lousy books in the silver age, and some real clunkers in the bronze age, let me tell you.

However, during those eras, Marvel worked very hard to build what felt like a connected universe through all it's books by focusing on the characters themselves, and not the plots.    Today, if you want to read that kind of book, you can pick up some of the excellent stuff that DC is putting out right now because they're writing the heck out of their books at the moment.  And that's why I think the wheel will spin back and Marvel will get this figured out again too.  Just hope that it is sooner than later.

 

+1 Very good post. 

[Prince Namor]

6 hours ago, Bill C said:

Also IMO impossible and irrational to claim this forced agenda has nothing at all to do with many fans current distaste for Marvel.

And incidentally, a) You or anyone else hasn't proven it's a 'forced' agenda - and by that I mean that Marvel did this SOLELY because they're pushing some social agenda and NOT because they thought it would expand their market and make them more money.

I CHALLENGE you to prove me wrong.

You CAN'T. 

and b) "has nothing at all to do with many fans current distaste for Marvel."

NEVER claimed that. I'm 100% SURE there are people who don't like Marvel Comics because there is a Muslim Ms. Marvel. 100% sure. Or a black female Iron Man. Guarantee it.

That simple minded racist BS is a whole other conversation.

 

[Logan510]

26 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

And incidentally, a) You or anyone else hasn't proven it's a 'forced' agenda - and by that I mean that Marvel did this SOLELY because they're pushing some social agenda and NOT because they thought it would expand their market and make them more money.

I CHALLENGE you to prove me wrong.

You CAN'T. 

and b) "has nothing at all to do with many fans current distaste for Marvel."

NEVER claimed that. I'm 100% SURE there are people who don't like Marvel Comics because there is a Muslim Ms. Marvel. 100% sure. Or a black female Iron Man. Guarantee it.

That simple minded racist BS is a whole other conversation.

 

I would prefer they create new characters, as opposed to just sliding in another character under the mantle of Thor or Ms Marvel or whoever. It de-uniques the characters imo and is a big turn off. Hopefully I don't get accused of being a simple minded racist.

[kav]

46 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

NEVER claimed that. I'm 100% SURE there are people who don't like Marvel Comics because there is a Muslim Ms. Marvel. 100% sure. Or a black female Iron Man. Guarantee it.

That simple minded racist BS is a whole other conversation.

 

Wow virtue signalling!  Awesome!

[Prince Namor]

52 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

I would prefer they create new characters, as opposed to just sliding in another character under the mantle of Thor or Ms Marvel or whoever. It de-uniques the characters imo and is a big turn off. Hopefully I don't get accused of being a simple minded racist.

Racist would be not liking it solely because it's a Muslim, or solely because it's a black character.

Personally, I'm no more offended by Jimmy Olsen being turned into a fish boy in the 60's as I am someone else becoming Iron Man, as I see them as fictional characters open to interpretation by the 100 different writers/editors who've handled these characters over the years. Sales have sucked over the last 20 years, so they're going to try and shake things up somehow.

Were you currently reading any Marvel's or are you just opposed to this whole idea in principle?

[Prince Namor]

43 minutes ago, kav said:

Wow virtue signalling!  Awesome!

Another comment having nothing to add to the conversation and written simply to troll me.

[kav]

Just now, Chuck Gower said:

Another comment having nothing to add to the conversation and written simply to troll me.

No it is completely legitimate and accurate-you are virtue signalling to make yourself and your argument the 'moral high ground'.  Won't work.  And calling someone a troll is the last gasp of the losing argument.

[ComicConnoisseur]

How about this example?

When most people go to pick up a Batman and Superman comic book they expect Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent.

If it is anyone else for more than a few issues they are going to lose interest.

Same with me as in when I pick up a Batman comic book I expect it to be about Bruce Wayne and not Commissioner Gordon in a robot Batman armor.

I want the icons. 

I want Coke Classic,and not New Coke.

Apparently with Marvel`s falling sales I am not the only one.

 

 

[thehumantorch]

7 minutes ago, kav said:

 

9 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Another comment having nothing to add to the conversation and written simply to troll me.

No it is completely legitimate and accurate-you are virtue signalling to make yourself and your argument the 'moral high ground'.  Won't work.  And calling someone a troll is the last gasp of the losing argument.

 

Gentlemen, could you please take this dispute to pm rather than derailing this thread?

[Prince Namor]

16 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

How about this example?

When most people go to pick up a Batman and Superman comic book they expect Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent.

You're assuming there are multiple new readers every month that go in to pick up the latest Batman and Superman comic book.

Hasn't been that way in a very long time.

The publisher's cater to who actually BUYS their product. 

16 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

If it is anyone else for more than a few issues they are going to lose interest.

Now your assuming they pick it up and then begin to read it month after month. I wish it happened that way. Sales are down for the industry as a whole.

The INDUSTRY as a WHOLE.

Have been overall for almost 20 years. Take away Star Wars and Walking Dead over the last few years, and Superman could be portrayed by Lucifer and it really wouldn't have mattered.

16 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Same with me as in when I pick up a Batman comic book I expect it to be about Bruce Wayne and not Commissioner Gordon in a robot Batman armor.

I want the icons. 

I want Coke Classic,and not New Coke.

You said that the last moderns you read were the New 52 collection HC (collecting all 52 New 52 #1's)

Why would a publisher cater to an audience that buys a comic once every four or five years?

16 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Apparently with Marvel`s falling sales I am not the only one.

The Original Wasp, Hawkeye, Black Widow each has their own comic. Horrible sales.

Orignal Power Man and Iron Fist... falling sales.

Original Doctor Strange, Original Silver Surfer - both well written books... sales continue to fall...

Star-Lord, Gamora, Rocket all have solo books.... poor sales, falling each month.

MS. MARVEL OUT SELLS ALL OF THESE TITLES.

THOR and Riri IRON MAN OUT SELLS ALL OF THESE TITLES (as well as Original Gamora, Ghost Rider, Moon Knight, Guardians of the Galaxy, Daredevil, Punisher, all the X-Men books, Thanos, and Venom)

In Fact - Ms. Marvel is doing the same numbers as the new MU Guardians of the Galaxy #1, which has a MOVIE coming out.

How do you explain THAT?

She's holding her own with an original GOTG team that.... oh wait a second...

That's not the original GOTG team is it?

Funny how that gets accepted.

Put a Green lady, a raccoon and a tree on a team and everyone is cool with that.

But a black woman or a muslim, everyone cries foul.

Can you explain that?

 

[Readcomix]

19 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

You're assuming there are multiple new readers every month that go in to pick up the latest Batman and Superman comic book.

Hasn't been that way in a very long time.

The publisher's cater to who actually BUYS their product. 

Now your assuming they pick it up and then begin to read it month after month. I wish it happened that way. Sales are down for the industry as a whole.

The INDUSTRY as a WHOLE.

Have been overall for almost 20 years. Take away Star Wars and Walking Dead over the last few years, and Superman could be portrayed by Lucifer and it really wouldn't have mattered.

You said that the last moderns you read were the New 52 collection HC (collecting all 52 New 52 #1's)

Why would a publisher cater to an audience that buys a comic once every four or five years?

The Original Wasp, Hawkeye, Black Widow each has their own comic. Horrible sales.

Orignal Power Man and Iron Fist... falling sales.

Original Doctor Strange, Original Silver Surfer - both well written books... sales continue to fall...

Star-Lord, Gamora, Rocket all have solo books.... poor sales, falling each month.

MS. MARVEL OUT SELLS ALL OF THESE TITLES.

THOR and Riri IRON MAN OUT SELLS ALL OF THESE TITLES (as well as Original Gamora, Ghost Rider, Moon Knight, Guardians of the Galaxy, Daredevil, Punisher, all the X-Men books, Thanos, and Venom)

In Fact - Ms. Marvel is doing the same numbers as the new MU Guardians of the Galaxy #1, which has a MOVIE coming out.

How do you explain THAT?

She's holding her own with an original GOTG team that.... oh wait a second...

That's not the original GOTG team is it?

Funny how that gets accepted.

Put a Green lady, a raccoon and a tree on a team and everyone is cool with that.

But a black woman or a muslim, everyone cries foul.

Can you explain that?

 

The green lady, raccoon and tree are not called Martinex, Vance Astro and Charlie-27, with the same powers. They are different characters.

[ComicConnoisseur]

10 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

You said that the last moderns you read were the New 52 collection HC (collecting all 52 New 52 #1's)

Chuck that was a long time ago that I said that(maybe 2011?). Once I got Comixology Unlimited and Marvel Unlimited I caught up. I am probably reading more comics now than I have in a long time. The Image and new Valiant stuff is very good. I want the Marvel stuff to be that good. Comixology Unlimited is just like  Spotify and You-Tube in that I have expanded my music interests beyond rock n roll. 

When I read the Marvel Universe I want to read about the heroes I grew up with and the ones in the highly successful movies.

I want the real deal.

Iron Man = Tony Stark

Captain America = Steve Rogers

Wolverine = Logan

Spider-Man = Peter Parker

I am pretty sure in that feeling that is the consensus with most loyal comic book fans.

The sales are the final barometer and Marvel is finding this out as their sales are falling.

 

 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

6 minutes ago, Readcomix said:

The green lady, raccoon and tree are not called Martinex, Vance Astro and Charlie-27, with the same powers. They are different characters.

I know. That's the point I'm making. Why is the diversity of the GOTG team ok? Why is the change in the original line-up ok? Why is THAT accepted while other similar changes are not?

[ComicConnoisseur]

3 minutes ago, Readcomix said:

Why would a publisher cater to an audience that buys a comic once every four or five years?

Maybe not me,but there is a lot of loyal fans they did not cater to, and now the falling sales are coming back to bite them.

The comic division kind of made a bunch business blunders if you think about it. Here they have these iconic heroes that finally made it to the big-time, and what do they do? They change them so much that their loyal fans don't care about them as they once did.

 

 

 

[Readcomix]

Just now, Chuck Gower said:

I know. That's the point I'm making. Why is the diversity of the GOTG team ok? Why is the change in the original line-up ok? Why is THAT accepted while other similar changes are not?

Because they are not carrying the names of the series' icons...they are their own characters. A team is a little more fungible. Iron Man is not just a suit of armor, it is Tony Stark. That's the fan reaction near as I can gather on here.

super genius kid (of whatever race/gender) inspired by Iron Man, imitates with her own armor, has her own approach .... Cool concept. Simply supplant the original with the same genius kid and their armor...not as popular. Lots of fans like continuity. Add to it, don't blow it up. World of difference. 

I'm just trying to answer your question. 

[ComicConnoisseur]

3 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

I know. That's the point I'm making. Why is the diversity of the GOTG team ok? Why is the change in the original line-up ok? Why is THAT accepted while other similar changes are not?

GOTC were never iconic,while Bruce Banner Hulk and Spider-Man Peter Parker were.

Hulk to millions is Bruce Banner.

Spider-Man to millions is Peter Parker.

No one really even knew who the Guardians were before the movie,while Peter Parker and Bruce Banner have been part of pop culture for 50 plus years.

 

[fastballspecial]

I always thought Marvel should/could change their titles for say 6 months and just focus on the villains. New stories, fresh looks at villains never looked at before and an approach that hasn't been done since say Acts of Vengeance. They have the established base to do it with. They don't have to alienate fans because they all know the villains and Spider-man can be on vacation for a few months. What have they got to lose. They can try it with a couple of titles and branch it out. Ive enjoyed villain stories over the years. Think of how many you could tell from the Avengers, FF and Spider-man.