sacentaur Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, G.A.tor said: And yet it seems the majority of these books change hands not in public venues. I for one don't need an auction (and a loss of 10%+) to sell a golden age key. Just because results are not public doesnt diminish the results , it only minimizes the conclusions one can draw only using public data Exactly - but that won't stop someone from selectively presenting data points beneficial to them and then drawing a line in the sand, arguing ad infinitum until others fatigue and give up. The trolling is so obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, sacentaur said: Exactly - but that won't stop someone from selectively presenting data points beneficial to them and then drawing a line in the sand, arguing ad infinitum until others fatigue and give up. The trolling is so obvious. Yes it is. And I used ALL of the most recent publicly available data points. What are you using exactly? Oh right, nothing as always. Troll on..... -J. Edited July 10, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: I hear you. But while private sales between individuals are certainly valid as far as those two individuals are concerned, for these types of conversations and analyses, sales done and recorded publicly, information that is accessible and viewable to everybody, keeps the playing field level and the conversation honest. -J. For purposes of discussing public sales, I agree. But the comic market is not transparent and certainly not limited to , in the case of major golden age keys, what is a minority of realized sales. "Insider" or private information makes the playing field uneven sometimes. So it's tough to accurately analyze a market with such restricted information, imo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 minute ago, G.A.tor said: For purposes of discussing public sales, I agree. But the comic market is not transparent and certainly not limited to , in the case of major golden age keys, what is a minority of realized sales. "Insider" or private information makes the playing field uneven sometimes. So it's tough to accurately analyze a market with such restricted information, imo? I agree. Beyond conversations like this, private dealer info is not invalid, and GPA is just a small slice of the sales market pie. -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceman399 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Only public sales count cause you know the constant claims of shill bidding and other similar shenanigans what not make it a much more viable option than a sale that did in fact happen I love how much you disagree with everything in this hobby J. sacentaur 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Iceman399 said: Only public sales count cause you know the constant claims of shill bidding and other similar shenanigans what not make it a much more viable option than a sale that did in fact happen I love how much you disagree with everything in this hobby J. And what's so awesome about that is you can usually see bidding patterns on eBay, thus allowing an individual to vet results for himself, and auction houses like CC, mycomicshop, etc have safeguards in place to at least curtail such shenanigans. But yeah some rando "dealer" running around the CGC boards boasting about all his record breaking private sales is so much more reliable (I am not referencing anyone in particular, by the way, just using that as an example of the problem with trying to use strictly private sales in conversations like this). I don't know what "the hobby" agrees or disagrees with, I just like common sense. -J. Edited July 10, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceman399 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Just now, Jaydogrules said: And what's so awesome about that is you can usually see bidding patterns on eBay, thus allowing an individual to vet results for himself, and auction houses like CC, mycomicshop have safeguards in place to at least curtail such shenanigans. But yeah some rando "dealer" running around the CGC boards boasting about all his record breaking private sales is so much more reliable (I am not referencing anyone in particular, by the way, just using that as an example of the problem with trying to use strictly private sales in conversations like this). I don't know what "the hobby" agrees or disagrees with, I just like common sense. -J. One can't "look" at GPA from a year ago and determine even where the sale even took place let alone bidder history. You do know that some private sellers report to GPA right? Guess that throws out the private sales and GPA right out the window. Not only can no one look at the history of the buyer/dealer...but guess what that data point on GPA 3 months later might not have even happened on an auction house Wonder what data we can use then to support any claims in the hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacentaur Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Iceman399 said: I love how much you disagree with everything in this hobby J. But...but... everyone else is always wrong and he's always right, regardless of the situation or how much experienced feedback and knowledge is subsequently given. A troll does enjoy swinging his club, after all... Edited July 10, 2017 by sacentaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: But yeah some rando "dealer" running around the CGC boards boasting about all his record breaking private sales is so much more reliable (I am not referencing anyone in particular, by the way, just using that as an example of the problem with trying to use strictly private sales in conversations like this). I don't know what "the hobby" agrees or disagrees with, I just like common sense. -J. The sales data I posted on this thread was public. Gothamkid too. Gator was kind enough to share some of his private sales. I'd think whether you want to listen to the information he is sharing would depend on whether you think he is credible. He is to me. So your comment about a "rando 'dealer'" seems absurd to me. No one here is trying to use "strictly private sales" information. What you have here is a mix of public and private, and the private is from a credible source. sacentaur and Larryw7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotham Kid Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: But yeah some rando "dealer" running around the CGC boards boasting about all his record breaking private sales is so much more reliable (I am not referencing anyone in particular, by the way, just using that as an example of the problem with trying to use strictly private sales in conversations like this). GAtor I believe is the only dealer so far to have given account of his private sales of cap1 and bats1. I would consider that data equally reliable, perhaps even more so as GPA has an unfortunate track record of dubious manipulation. Edited July 10, 2017 by Gotham Kid Tbone911t 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, sfcityduck said: The sales data I posted on this thread was public. Gothamkid too. Gator was kind enough to share some of his private sales. I'd think whether you want to listen to the information he is sharing would depend on whether you think he is credible. He is to me. So your comment about a "rando 'dealer'" seems absurd to me. No one here is trying to use "strictly private sales" information. What you have here is a mix of public and private, and the private is from a credible source. Sorry, but an amalgam of public sales from dozens of different venues is always going to be more reliable than the accounts of a private dealer, who for whatever reasons he has, decides to keep his sales private, regardless of who the dealer is. And if the public data from dozens of sources is inconsistent with what is being reported from a strictly private setting, that in itself is a red flag and why non-public sales are not helpful in discussions such as this. -J. Edited July 10, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 5 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: Sorry, but an amalgam of public sales from dozens of different venues is always going to be more reliable than the accounts of a private dealer, who for whatever reasons he has, decides to keep his sales private, regardless of who the dealer is. And if the public data from dozens of sources is inconsistent with what is being reported from a strictly private setting, that in itself is a red flag and why non-public sales are not helpful in discussions such as this. -J. I don't think your opinion will garner much agreement. It suffers from several major logical flaws. sacentaur 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, sfcityduck said: I don't think your opinion will garner much agreement. It suffers from several major logical flaws. Such as? -J. Edited July 10, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacentaur Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Despite an insincere disclaimer to the contrary, I find the troll's veiled reference to G.A.tor (Rick is one of the most sincere and straightforwardly honest individuals I have ever known in the hobby) as some 'rando(m) dealer' to be not only insulting, but also proof of just how far he'll go to support his unpopular position. Troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Just now, sacentaur said: Despite an insincere disclaimer to the contrary, I find the troll's veiled reference to G.A.tor (Rick is one of the most sincere and straightforwardly honest individuals I have ever known in the hobby) as some 'rando(m) dealer' to be not only insulting, but also proof of just how far he'll go to support his unpopular position. Troll. Hi Troll. I've bought from Gator and shopped multiple high dollar books with him in the past. That doesn't mean I automatically take everything he (or anyone else says) as gospel. I have a brain and can research and cross check and think for myself too. I'm starting to wonder if the same could be said about you. Troll on..... -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 My sales may or may not be indicative of the overall market. However, when a base of customers constantly offer $x for certain books, it provides a basis from which I can try to establish some semblance of fmv for said book so I have it to offer as i said , insider/private info in most hobbies is advantageous and the reason it is generally kept hidden or private Larryw7 and ComicConnoisseur 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 5 minutes ago, G.A.tor said: My sales may or may not be indicative of the overall market. However, when a base of customers constantly offer $x for certain books, it provides a basis from which I can try to establish some semblance of fmv for said book so I have it to offer as i said , insider/private info in most hobbies is advantageous and the reason it is generally kept hidden or private Gator, most of our back and forths in the past have been rooted in public vs private sales and how the two don't always seem to line up. I'm just going to have to assume that you know that I wasn't referring to you as a "rando dealer" running around reporting private sales with no basis. And if you don't know that, I'll say it again. I wasn't, in spite of what a couple of determined instigators might be saying. Now ask me about a few dealers in the copper and modern forums and I might have a different answer. -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 I certainly don't take anything personally on a message board, so no worries there. I also rarely get top $ for books so I knew a statement to that effect wouldn't generally reference me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, G.A.tor said: I certainly don't take anything personally on a message board, so no worries there. I also rarely get top $ for books so I knew a statement to that effect wouldn't generally reference me Fair point. I thought I even exaggerated the point to such an extreme as to be satirical but I guess satire doesn't always translate well on the interwebs with everyone. -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceman399 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 32 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: Such as? -J. See my post above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
