Hierarchy of Golden Age Comics (2017 Edition) 1 1

[Jaydogrules]

13 minutes ago, Iceman399 said:

See my post above

And see mine below that.  

 By the way, you may want to get your facts straight.  You can contact GPA at anytime and they will tell you the source of any sale from anytime.  And....yes private dealers also report to GPA.  The list of all of them is on GPA's home page. There is a vetting those dealers must go through in order to be able to report.  Those private dealers have made their sales available for public scrutiny, comparisons, and consumption.  

If you don't comprehend the difference, I don't know what to tell you.

-J.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[Iceman399]

1 hour ago, Iceman399 said:

One can't "look" at GPA from a year ago and determine even where the sale even took place let alone bidder history.

You do know that some private sellers report to GPA right?  Guess that throws out the private sales and GPA right out the window.  Not only can no one look at the history of the buyer/dealer...but guess what that data point on GPA 3 months later might not have even happened on an auction house  

Wonder what data we can use then to support any claims in the hobby.  

@Jaydogrules

You replied to this?  I don't see it but ok.

So you trust a private dealer that reports to GPA behind closed doors but don't trust a private dealer that doesn't report to GPA.  

You do know that there isn't a way to look at a sale and find its source without hopefully being in HA archives or CC newsletter.  So did that "sale" reported on GPA come from ebay?  was it shilled?  can you be sure since the sale is 6 months old?  Did the sale come from one of the several private dealers that report to GPA?  Do you know all of the parameters around the sale?  Do you know if there was any trade involved?  Any discounting for future considerations/bulk purchases?  Do you know if the sale actually happened or the dealer just reported the sale to GPA (maybe they were buying it out of their own inventory and wanted to make a chart buster)  ?

Have you sourced all of the sales you are discussing by contacting George?

Haha scrutiny so when a private sale happens and reported to GPA do you get to see the buyer?  Nope its a private sale that was logged and sent to GPA.  Continue to try.

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Iceman399

[Jaydogrules]

1 minute ago, Iceman399 said:

@Jaydogrules

You replied to this?  I don't see it but ok.

So you trust a private dealer that reports to GPA behind closed doors but don't trust a private dealer that doesn't report to GPA.  

You do know that there isn't a way to look at a sale and find its source without hopefully being in HA archives or CC newsletter.  So did that "sale" reported on GPA come from ebay?  was it shilled?  can you be sure since the sale is 6 months old?  Did the sale come from one of the several private dealers that report to GPA?  Do you know all of the parameters around the sale?  Do you know if there was any trade involved?  Any discounting for future considerations/bulk purchases?  Do you know if the sale actually happened or the dealer just reported the sale to GPA (maybe they were buying it out of their own inventory and wanted to make a chart buster)  ?

So what alternative are you suggesting?   No data at all?  Or maybe GPA just should accept data from the one or two dealers that you personally know, trust, and like. 

Come on man. 

GPA accepts data from at least three dozen different and vetted venues.  That vast amount of data smoothes out a lot of the occasional issues that you mention.  GPA does not accept data from Comiclink because Josh only wanted to cherry pick favourable data to report and GPA would not accept that kind of data.  

And the other great thing about GPA is- if you have direct info or knowledge that a sale is questionable, not properly sourced, and or fraud, they welcome emails from their members alerting them to such.  They will then research the sale, verify and re-verify and respond accordingly.   They literally go multiple extra miles to keep their data as un-corrupted as possible.   

This conversation has officially gone off the rails by the way.  

-J.

[Pat Calhoun]

Happy Birthday, Joe !!!

 

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, Jaydogrules said:

Like ?

-J.

First, your claim that "an amalgam of public sales from dozens of different venues is  is always going to be more reliable than the accounts of a private dealer" ignores concerns regarding the quality of information you have presented.  All you have presented are sales of very low grade comics, and rather than claiming those to be the product of an "amalgam of public sales from dozens of different venues" you have cited instead to only two auction houses.  Gator explained to you why a comparison of low grade sales may not be indicative of mid to high grade pricing, which is what we have been focusing on, and you are ignoring that the information provided by myself, Gothamkid, and Gator actually represents a wider spectrum of information than you are considering -- both in terms of timespread (which helps to address the problem of bubbles) and selling venues.

Second, your attack upon private transaction date, "regardless of who the dealer is," ignores that private venues may well be the majority of transactions in the marketplace.  By ignoring RELIABLE dealer information, you are intentionally eliminating a vast market segment from your analysis.  Logically, this ensures that your analysis can never be accurate.  After all, we all know that the auction process inherently distorts pricing because of middle man fees (making prices appear higher than sellers will actually accept) and the potential for bid manipulation.  

Third, when you assert "if the public data from dozens of sources is inconsistent with what is being reported from a strictly private setting, that in itself is a red flag and why non-public sales are not helpful in discussions such as this" you are ignoring it might also be a "red flag" about auction results or GPA reporting.  There is always the possibility that unreliable dealers might be inclined to report "good" prices achieved to GPA, but not lesser prices.  I am more comfortable trusting a dealer like Gator than ones who don't have the same reputation.

Ultimately, more information is better information, so it is pretty foolish to ignore information from a credible source like Gator.

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by sfcityduck

[Sqeggs]

1 hour ago, sacentaur said:

Despite an insincere disclaimer to the contrary, I find the troll's veiled reference to G.A.tor (Rick is one of the most sincere and straightforwardly honest individuals I have ever known in the hobby) as some 'rando(m) dealer' to be not only insulting, but also proof of just how far he'll go to support his unpopular position.

Troll.

What is this "rando" and how much is Gator charging for it? 

[G.A.tor]

I used to report my sales to gpa moons ago But bob storms made some comments years ago that got me to rethink my position. So I never established a consistent reporting mechanism  

Gpa is a wonderful tool to use. But it is but one tool that should be considered in the grand scheme of the market. 

Before I started selling bronze and copper I never used it because sales data was so sparse for the type of books I bought and sold. But gpa is useful for books that are regularly traded and trends can be established 

I've come to enjoy it. But let's be honest, on many genres it captures but a fraction of sales (raw, other grading co, private, these very boards, conventions etc)  It is still very limited in its usefulness when it comes to market analysis , especially for many golden age books. 

[Jaydogrules]

9 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

First, your claim that "an amalgam of public sales from dozens of different venues is  is always going to be more reliable than the accounts of a private dealer" ignores concerns regarding the quality of information you have presented.  All you have presented are sales of very low grade comics, and rather than claiming those to be the product of an "amalgam of public sales from dozens of different venues" you have cited instead to only two auction houses.  Gator explained to you why a comparison of low grade sales may not be indicative of mid to high grade pricing, which is what we have been focusing on, and you are ignoring that the information provided by myself, Gothamkid, and Gator actually represents a wider spectrum of information than you are considering -- both in terms of timespread (which helps to address the problem of bubbles) and selling venues.

Second, your attack upon private transaction date, "regardless of who the dealer is," ignores that private venues may well be the majority of transactions in the marketplace.  By ignoring RELIABLE dealer information, you are intentionally eliminating a vast market segment from your analysis.  Logically, this ensures that your analysis can never be accurate.  After all, we all know that the auction process inherently distorts pricing because of middle man fees (making prices appear higher than sellers will actually accept) and the potential for bid manipulation.  

Third, when you assert "if the public data from dozens of sources is inconsistent with what is being reported from a strictly private setting, that in itself is a red flag and why non-public sales are not helpful in discussions such as this" you are ignoring it might also be a "red flag" about auction results.

Ultimately, more information is better information, so it is pretty foolish to ignore information from a credible source like Gator.

 

Look, you're free to rely on any information you want in your own private space.  

But if you want to have a public debate, be ready with publicly available and viewable facts, or save your breath.  Gator has himself only admittedly offered some vague information because he finds that kind of info proprietary and valuable.  So I don't know exactly what part of what he has said that you are placing so much weight on.  As for "only" using publicly available sales to compare the two books, yeah, and? Those are the sales that we have in the public view.  I know that publicly available info isn't consistent with the narrative you want to believe but it is what it is, sorry.  

Again, all this only further highlights the problem of trying strictly private transactions in these types of conversations.  It's vague and not available to public scrutiny.  

-J.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[Jaydogrules]

14 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

What is this "rando" and how much is Gator charging for it? 

Anyone with a millennial in the house knows what a "rando" is.  

-J.

[G.A.tor]

Is there a list somewhere of gpa contributors? Other than known auction type data scrape, who are the contributors?

i know greg Reece is. But I'm not...storms is not...harley is not...bedrock is not...graham is not...filter is not...Roberts is not...muchin is not...etc etc. seems very few major , reputable dealers that sell a lot of these type books, actually report? 

Edited July 10, 2017 by G.A.tor

[Iceman399]

2 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

Is there a list somewhere of gpa contributors? Other than known auction type data scrape, who are the contributors?

i know greg Reece is. But I'm not...storms is not...harley is not...bedrock is not...graham is not...etc etc. seems very few major , reputable dealers that sell a lot of these type books, actually report? 

CGC Online Auction Sites	Dealer/Consignment Sites
Heritage Auctions ComicConnect Auction Pedigree Grand Auctions Hakes Bonhams Morphy Auctions My Comic Shop Vintage Collectables Mound City Auctions eBay Legendary Auctions All Star Auctions Get Slabbed	ComicConnect Comicana Direct World Wide Comics Heritage Auctions Comic Market Metropolis Comics Pedigree Comics Quality Comix DTA Collectibles Paradise Comics Investment Collectibles Vintage Collectables Esquire Comics Mile High Comics Archangels Lewis Wayne Gallery My Comic Shop Cloud 9 Comics Greg Reece Comics Empire Collectibles Comic Safari Heronext Timeless Icons International Comic Exchange

[sfcityduck]

9 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

Look, you're free to rely on any information you want in your own private space.  

But if you want to have a public debate, be ready with publicly available and viewable facts, or save your breath.  Gator has himself only admittedly offered some vague information because he finds that kind of info proprietary and valuable.  So I don't know exactly what part of what he has said that you are placing so much weight on.  As for "only" using publicly available sales to compare the two books, yeah, and? Those are the sales that we have in the public view.  I know that publicly available info isn't consistent with the narrative you want to believe but it is what it is, sorry.  

Again, all this only further highlights the problem of trying strictly private transactions in these types of conversations.  It's vague and not available to public scrutiny.  

-J.

Now you are being dishonest.  I and Gothamkid presented solely publicly available information of mid to high grade transactions which establish the greater value of Bat 1.  All you offered were results from two auction houses, not dozens of venues, including an incomplete transaction, relating solely to low grade copies.  So your assertion that the "publicly available info isn't consistent with the narrative" is B.S.

Gator offered several nuances you seem to be missing.  First, he offered information on the comparison of mid grade Bat 1 vs. CA 1 sales.  He noted (1) " Mid grade blue bat 1 is about 20k ahead of cap 1 based on 4 sales I was involved in , in the past year" and (2) "I've sold 3 cap 1s in past 6 months."  That's good data.  Second, he explained why the low grade price samples are bad benchmarks.

You clearly enjoy arguing, but it doesn't appear that you are convincing anyone.  And you aren't going to convince anyone if you misrepresent posts, especially when the info is up thread and it is easy to demonstrate the misrepresentation.   

[G.A.tor]

Just now, Iceman399 said:

CGC Online Auction Sites	Dealer/Consignment Sites
Heritage Auctions ComicConnect Auction Pedigree Grand Auctions Hakes Bonhams Morphy Auctions My Comic Shop Vintage Collectables Mound City Auctions eBay Legendary Auctions All Star Auctions Get Slabbed	ComicConnect Comicana Direct World Wide Comics Heritage Auctions Comic Market Metropolis Comics Pedigree Comics Quality Comix DTA Collectibles Paradise Comics Investment Collectibles Vintage Collectables Esquire Comics Mile High Comics Archangels Lewis Wayne Gallery My Comic Shop Cloud 9 Comics Greg Reece Comics Empire Collectibles Comic Safari Heronext Timeless Icons International Comic Exchange

Cool. Didn't know. 

[G.A.tor]

7 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

 

For golden age and even silver age keys, very few of those listed (outside of heritage, metro/cc, Reece, worldwide , mcs and the like ) likely have any significant contributions to slabbed golden age and silver keys, right?

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by G.A.tor

[Jaydogrules]

5 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Now you are being dishonest.  I and Gothamkid presented solely publicly available information of mid to high grade transactions which establish the greater value of Bat 1.  All you offered were results from two auction houses, not dozens of venues, including an incomplete transaction, relating solely to low grade copies.  So your assertion that the "publicly available info isn't consistent with the narrative" is B.S.

Gator offered several nuances you seem to be missing.  First, he offered information on the comparison of mid grade Bat 1 vs. CA 1 sales.  He noted (1) " Mid grade blue bat 1 is about 20k ahead of cap 1 based on 4 sales I was involved in , in the past year" and (2) "I've sold 3 cap 1s in past 6 months."  That's good data.  Second, he explained why the low grade price samples are bad benchmarks.

You clearly enjoy arguing, but it doesn't appear that you are convincing anyone.  And you aren't going to convince anyone if you misrepresent posts, especially when the info is up thread and it is easy to demonstrate the misrepresentation.   

Yes, you provided stale sales from incomparable grades, that were years apart.  

Gothamkid provided a sale of a prestigious pedigree to a non pedigree, nine months apart, and the bats sale may not have actually gone through, as Vincent never uploaded it to GPA (though he did upload the Cap sale).

I provided the closest and most comparable recent sales, they all happen to be low grade, but it is what it is.  I only cited the comiclink sale as further evidence of how Cap looks to be surging past Bats, at least as far as these recent and similar grade sales are concerned.  

Hope that clears it up.  

-J.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[Jaydogrules]

2 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

For golden age and even silver age keys, very few of those listed (outside of heritage, metro/cc, Reece ) likely have any significant contributions to slabbed golden age and silver keys, right?

 

I couldn't answer that.  I just know that maybe six of those contributors are responsible for 90% of the sales and price discussions that occur on these boards though.  

-J.

[G.A.tor]

6 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

I couldn't answer that.  I just know that maybe six of those contributors are responsible for 90% of the sales and price discussions that occur on these boards though.  

-J.

That seems about right. So "dozens" would not be very accurate for the sake of the discussion?

and , sales from all those I listed that don't contribute would be some significant %, I believe ? 

Thats all I'm saying. Using only gpa is very restrictive if one truly wants to understand the market and make statements to that effect

 And that makes no  statement about private versus public because a lot of the sales occur publicly at conventions. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by G.A.tor

[sfcityduck]

Just now, Jaydogrules said:

Yes, you provided stale sales from incomparable grades, and years apart.  

Gothamkid provided a sale of a prestigious pedigree to a non pedigree, nine months apart, and the bats sale may not have actually done through, as Vincent never uploaded it to GPA.

I provided the closest and most comparable recent sales, they all happen to be low grade, but it is what it is.  I only cited the comiclink sale as further evidence of how Cap looks to be surging past Bats, at least as far as these recent and similar grade sales are concerned.  

Hope that clears it up.  

-J.

As I said, it is a bad mistake to make factual misrepresentations that are disproven by the prior posts.  In this case, your assertion that I provided comparisons of sales from "imcomparable grades" is  B.S. because I provided one comparison of 9.2 to 9.2 and one comparison of a 6.5 CA 1 to a 5.5 (lower) Bat 1.  Yes those 9.2 sales were 24 months apart, but when talking high grade sales, that is no so long a passage of time to render the comparison meaningless, especially when the sale two years later was for significantly more $200K+ and 65% over the prior sale. 

Yes, those 9.2 sales were a few years back, but few high grade comics of these keys exist, and no books of comparable grade have been sold since.  So its the most recent high grade comparable sale.

The 6.5 to 5.5. comparison was even more incredible at a 120% premium (over $100K more) for the book two grades worse only 24 months later.  And that 5.5 sale is not stale.

You are really undermining your argument, which includes some valid points, with the dishonesty and misrepresentations about what others are arguing.  It is trollish. 

[Jaydogrules]

2 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

As I said, it is a bad mistake to make factual misrepresentations that are disproven by the prior posts.  In this case, your assertion that I provided comparisons of sales from "imcomparable grades" is  B.S. because I provided one comparison of 9.2 to 9.2 and one comparison of a 6.5 CA 1 to a 5.5 (lower) Bat 1.  Yes those 9.2 sales were 24 months apart, but when talking high grade sales, that is no so long a passage of time to render the comparison meaningless, especially when the sale two years later was for significantly more $200K+ and 65% over the prior sale. 

Yes, those 9.2 sales were a few years back, but few high grade comics of these keys exist, and no books of comparable grade have been sold since.  So its the most recent high grade comparable sale.

The 6.5 to 5.5. comparison was even more incredible at a 120% premium (over $100K more) for the book two grades worse only 24 months later.  And that 5.5 sale is not stale.

You are really undermining your argument, which includes some valid points, with the dishonesty and misrepresentations about what others are arguing.  It is trollish. 

I think we will just have to agree to disagree that sales across disparate grades, years ago and years apart are valid or relevant to a discussion about a "hierarchy in 2017".  

And if you want to know how fast the market can, in fact, move on a mega key, you need look no further than AF 15, or SC 4, or Hulk 1 in the SA.  Or heck, even pre Robins in the GA.

Two years can be an eternity.  

-J.

[ComicConnoisseur]

On 7/8/2017 at 10:33 PM, Wayne-Tec said:

Outside of tiers, I've ranked the Top-6 books individually. In my opinion, not only are these the Top-6 GA books today, but they may remain the Top-6 for a very, very long time.

Action Comics #7 and Detective Comics #31 have rarity and incredibly desirable early cover appearances to their credit. Whiz Comics #2, All-American Comics #16 and Flash Comics #1 mark first appearances of early GA superheroes. The GA has some truly great books to offer, but the Top-6 are in a league of their own.

The combination of the Top-6 feature all of the following: the birth of the DC and Marvel superhero universes, the 1st appearances of Superman, Batman, Captain America, The Joker, The Red Skull, Catwoman, Jim Gordon, Bucky Barnes (the eventual Winter Soldier), The Kents (Clark's parents), The Sub-Mariner and The Human Torch, all with classic covers of the highest order.

There are the Top-6, and then, there's everything else.

 

1. Action Comics #1

2. Detective Comics #27

3. Captain America Comics #1

4. Batman #1

5. Marvel Comics #1

6. Superman #1

I agree with you, and that is how I see it right now.

Those first 6 are rock solid and static, it is slots 7,8,9, and 10 were we will see the dynamic change occur most often, as 7-10 are not locks like 1-6.

IMHO