Amazon's THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RINGS OF POWER (2022) 5 5

[sfcityduck]

On 9/8/2022 at 9:43 AM, drotto said:

Granted by the Second age it is established by Tolkien Galadriel was both married and had a child. There are contradictions in the "canon", but this is not one of them.

My point is that the prequels are nothing more than everchanging story ideas.  Tolkien felt no fidelity to them, he just thought they were good ideas.  Now that he's dead, and they are plowing a lot of new ground, there's room to tinker with the ideas in the background notes and make a better story.  Filming the Silmarillion with fidelity to that book would just create a boring flop as it lacks characterization, nuance and supporting characters.

Put another way, the LOTR and The Hobbit movies deviated from the books in many ways - when there was less justification as those were fully finished works. I enjoy the movies immensely anyway. Same here with this tv show of very unfinished works. If you want to delve into the many prequels, I cheer you on as I've done it and enjoyed it. But I truly think this approach creates a much more viewer friendly product than any attempt to film the prequels with any degree of fidelity would yield.  After all, the prequels provide only a sketch of Galadriel's life (really almost everyone's lives in those background notes).

Edited September 8, 2022 by sfcityduck

[drotto]

On 9/8/2022 at 12:50 PM, sfcityduck said:

My point is that the prequels are nothing more than everchanging story ideas.  Tolkein felt no fidelity to them, he just thought they were good ideas.  Now that he's dead, and they are plowing a lot of new ground, there's room to tinker with the ideas in the background notes and make a better story.  Filming the Silmarillion with fidelity to that book would just create a boring flop as it lacks characterization, nuance and supporting characters.

Put another way, the LOTR and The Hobbit movies deviated from the books in many ways - when there was less justification as those were fully finished works. I enjoy the movies immensely anyway. Same here with this tv show of very unfinished works. If you want to delve into the many prequels, I cheer you on as I've done it and enjoyed it. But I truly think this approach creates a much more viewer friendly product than any attempt to film the prequels with any degree of fidelity would yield.  After all, the prequels provide only a sketch of Galadriel's life (really almost everyone's lives in those background notes).

I know they are incomplete stories, with many gaps, and even contradictions.   Most of this story is made up whole cloth with only using the names, places and briefest outline of events. But there were specific items that were clearly stated by Tolkien, and the writers here have chosen to ignor those also. If that does not bother you, fine.  But this is clearly Tolkien's world in basically name only. That is why you see so many hard core Tolkien fans unhappy. It may be better for the general public, but how much does that group really care long term?

 

The original LoTR is my favorite trilogy ever.  It deviates at times, but the tones, messages, and characters are all spot on. The Hobbit trilogy was middling at best.  Often becoming a bloated mess, and deviating too far from the source material for my taste. This series is even further from what source material is available (and yes I am aware of the nature and limitations of the source material), and to me it does not feel like Tolkien, but rather just another fantasy based series.

 

You can create new stories in his world, but you should try to stick when possible to establish characters and at least attempt to mimic the tone and messages as Tolkien would have.  This does not feel like it does that.

 

I truly believe Tolkien would hate this show, as he was noted to be very critical in attempting to adept his works. Does that not count for something?

Edited September 8, 2022 by drotto

[Axelrod]

You can hate the show.  Just please don't hate it because they cast some black people or because you think they are pushing some ludicrous "girl power" agenda.  

If you are doing that, then it really is your problem, not theirs.  

[sfcityduck]

On 9/8/2022 at 10:14 AM, drotto said:

I know they are incomplete stories, with many gaps, and even contradictions.   Most of this story is made up whole cloth with only using the names, places and briefest outline of events. But there were specific items that were clearly stated by Tolkien, and the writers here have chosen to ignor those also. If that does not bother you, fine.  But this is clearly Tolkien's world in basically name only. That is why you see so many hard core Tolkien fans unhappy. It may be better for the general public, but how much does that group really care?

 

The original LoTR is my favorite trilogy ever.  It deviates at times, but the tones, messages, and characters are all spot on. The Hobbit trilogy was middling at best.  Often becoming a bloated mess, and deviating too far from the source material for my taste. This series is even further from what source material is available (and yes I am aware of the nature and limitations of the source material), and to me it does not feel like Tolkien, but rather just another fantasy based series.

 

You can create new stories in his world, but you should try to stick when possible to establish characters and at least attempt to mimic the tone and messages as Tolkien would have.  This does not feel like it does that.

I understand your frustration.  The problem is that it is very hard to film a book. Especially a SF or Fantasy book, because they involve the creation of whole new worlds and tend to have a much more robust back story then other types of fiction.  

But lets be clear, I am about as hardcore a Tolkien fan as exists. I, and many hardcore Tolkien fans, have no trouble enjoying the movies and this tv show for what they are. Yes, they departed significantly from the books. But they still told a good story about Tolkien's characters set in Tolkien's world. Cutting Tom Bombadil and the "Scouring of the Shire," and giving Arwen an enhanced role, certainly was a very major material change that impacted the arc and heroism of the hobbits, but it still was a good story in my view despite that lack of fidelity. I'm not sure the Hobbit was filmable as written (the animated story was horrible). The additions to the Movie were certainly not presaged by anything in the Hobbit, but they were still in keeping with Tolkien's general themes and I appreciated the fleshing out of some of the storylines. 

For me books and movies/tv are two different mediums. The latter is an adaptation. They can be good or bad, but in the SF and Fantasy context they are rarely entirely faithful. 

And here, the story being told is literally accumulated from multiple contradictory unpublished texts, organized notes, disorganized notes including lines on scraps of paper, and the sketchiest of timelines. That's a starting point not an ending point. Even the Silmarillion was largely patched together by Christopher Tolkien after his father's death, and he needed help, including from Guy Gavriel Kay (a great writer), to get it done. Here's what Kay said he learned from working on the project:

Quote

I learned a lot about false starts in writing. I mean that in a really serious way. His [Tolkien’s] false starts. You learn that the great works have disastrous botched chapters, that the great writers recognise that they didn’t work. So I was looking at drafts of The Lord of the Rings and rough starts for The Silmarillion and came to realise they don’t spring full-blown, utterly, completely formed in brilliance. They get there with writing and rewriting and drudgery and mistakes, and eventually if you put in the hours and the patience, something good might happen. That was a very, very early lesson for me, looking at the Tolkien materials. That it’s not instantly magnificent. That it’s laboriously so, but it gets there. That was a huge, huge, still important lesson.

The "source materials" for the Rings of Power tv show are nothing more than a LOT of false starts. Tolkien never authored final versions of the sequels or prequels we might have wanted. Just "false starts" and notes, etc.  So those who came after him have to fill in a lot of details to create a story worth filming.  

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by sfcityduck

[drotto]

On 9/8/2022 at 1:27 PM, Axelrod said:

You can hate the show.  Just please don't hate it because they cast some black people or because you think they are pushing some ludicrous "girl power" agenda.  

If you are doing that, then it really is your problem, not theirs.  

Reading the comments here, the vast majority of us criticizing the  show here are bringing up points that have nothing to do with race or agenda.  For the most part the criticisms stem from the changing or ignoring of the source material, the general writing, pacing of the show, and character critiques separate from physical traits.

 

Also if the Samba numbers are anything near accurate, this show is performing far below HoD, Stranger Things (2.9 million by Samba)  Kenobi (2.14 million), and at the same level as Moon Knight at 1.8 million. Either many people are not that interested in the show, or do not care for it.  If Samba is remotely accurate HoD is destroying LotR. Take that for what you will.

[ianh]

On 9/8/2022 at 1:27 PM, Axelrod said:

You can hate the show.  Just please don't hate it because they cast some black people or because you think they are pushing some ludicrous "girl power" agenda.  

If you are doing that, then it really is your problem, not theirs.  

I don't hate the show but I don't like it so far which has nothing to do with race or girl power and everything to do with the storyline, character development, writing and not following the source material. I hope it gets better but right now, it's a disappointment for me for sure.

Edited September 8, 2022 by ianh

[Bosco685]

I'm having a great time so far watching these prequel episodes. And no dwarves were injured twerking during the filming of this show. I read that in the credits disclaimer.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/8/2022 at 10:56 AM, drotto said:

If Samba is remotely accurate HoD is destroying LotR. Take that for what you will.

Couple of problems with this analysis:

* The first episode of HoD was FREE (inflates tv viewers);

* The first two episodes of RoP were shown in MOVIE THEATERS (deflates tv viewers); and

* Many people wait for the full season to be available before they bother to view a show.  We've created a binge watch society that just doesn't have the patience to wait a week or more between episodes.

So it is way too early to say which show has more staying power. (Amazon has committed to five seasons.)

Edited September 8, 2022 by sfcityduck

[drotto]

On 9/8/2022 at 4:58 PM, sfcityduck said:

Couple of problems with this analysis:

* The first episode of HoD was FREE (inflates tv viewers);

* The first two episodes of RoP were shown in MOVIE THEATERS (deflates tv viewers); and

* Many people wait for the full season to be available before they bother to view a show.  We've created a binge watch society that just doesn't have the patience to wait a week or more between episodes.

So it is way too early to say which show has more staying power. (Amazon has committed to five seasons.)

No HoD was only free on YouTube on LotR release day.  Otherwise you had to have HBO or subscribed to HBO Max.

HoD is also being released on a week to week basis so all of these except Stranger Things is directly comparable,  as they are week to week releases. So you could agree peoe are waiting for a full release there also.

Not sure how much the movie thing matters. But it was a limited basically one day release,  that maybe a few thousand people saw.  Even if a few hundred thousand saw it that way, the viewers are still well below HoD.

So far having cost 1 billion is a poor investment for Moon Knight numbers.

[Mystafo]

On 9/8/2022 at 12:27 PM, Axelrod said:

You can hate the show.

Thanks?

 

On 9/8/2022 at 12:27 PM, Axelrod said:

Just please don't hate it because they cast some black people or because you think they are pushing some ludicrous "girl power" agenda.  

If you are doing that, then it really is your problem, not theirs.  

I didn't see any of that in the thread...did I miss a page?

Edit - I guess I did

Edited September 8, 2022 by Mystafo

[sfcityduck]

On 9/8/2022 at 2:10 PM, drotto said:

No HoD was only free on YouTube on LotR release day.  Otherwise you had to have HBO or subscribed to HBO Max.

HoD is also being released on a week to week basis so all of these except Stranger Things is directly comparable,  as they are week to week releases. So you could agree peoe are waiting for a full release there also.

Not sure how much the movie thing matters. But it was a limited basically one day release,  that maybe a few thousand people saw.  Even if a few hundred thousand saw it that way, the viewers are still well below HoD.

So far having cost 1 billion is a poor investment for Moon Knight numbers.

More problems with the analysis:

* The $1B is over five years.  Amazon has committed to five seasons of RoP.  (HBO cancelled the original attempt at HoD after one preview costing $37M because it stunk.)

* RoP was previewed in Cinemark theaters. I guarantee that more than a few thousand people saw it.

I do agree that HoD and RoP distribution is comparable.  My only point being we won't know the true numbers until both seasons are over.  I agree that ST is not comparable and probably has the vast majority of its number already.

[drotto]

On 9/8/2022 at 5:27 PM, sfcityduck said:

More problems with the analysis:

* The $1B is over five years.  Amazon has committed to five seasons of RoP.  (HBO cancelled the original attempt at HoD after one preview costing $37M because it stunk.)

* RoP was previewed in Cinemark theaters. I guarantee that more than a few thousand people saw it.

I do agree that HoD and RoP distribution is comparable.  My only point being we won't know the true numbers until both seasons are over.  I agree that ST is not comparable and probably has the vast majority of its number already.

The Cinemark release still can't account for HoD having over 3 times the viewers.  Even if you say the theater viewers are equal to the number of people that saw it at home (which I highly doubt), double the viewers is still less then HoD by a significant degree.

 

I know the 1 billion is, in theory, over five years, but Amazon spent $250 million for the rights, and it is widely reported that each episode has a 50 to 60 million dollar price tag.  Ok, it is not a billion yet, but that means they have spent 750 to 850 million.

 

From the numbers we have right now, HoD is beating LotR in viewers (Samba like it or hate it is the best metric we have).  In addition, make whatever argument you want about review bombing (yes, I think it is happening to a degree), but HoD has significantly higher user ratings than LotR.  Remember, HoD also reported negativity over race swapping, possibly politically influenced storylines, etc. HoD also had an actor come out saying he had recieved negative comments on-line because of his race.  They are arguable not as bad, but many similar reports are there. But, for HoD this does not seem to be affecting its user reviews in the same fashion, it does not seem like it is getting review bombed. Something else is going on here.

[The Commissioner]

This show doesn't ruin LOTR or any of Tolkien's work. His work is still there for you to read and enjoy. This is just a version of one of his stories. 

It reminds me of what George Perez said about the TV show 'Titans' when asked what he thought about it being different from his comics. It was something along the lines of, "The comics are still there, this is just another telling of the story."

If you don't like the show, that's totally fine, but it doesn't ruin Tolkien's work or Peter Jackson's movies.

Just my opinion. 

[kimik]

Things pick up nicely in Episode 3. This show is going to become epic if they follow it through properly. We will see the fall of Numenor through to the siege of Barad-dur where Isildur gets the one ring. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by kimik

[sfcityduck]

On 9/8/2022 at 3:03 PM, drotto said:

they have spent 750 to 850 million.

 

They have spent less than $500B.  But that includes a lot a lot of special effects and cgi that will be used in future years. 

 

 

[Bosco685]

On 9/8/2022 at 11:48 PM, The Commissioner said:

This show doesn't ruin LOTR or any of Tolkien's work. His work is still there for you to read and enjoy. This is just a version of one of his stories. 

It reminds me of what George Perez said about the TV show 'Titans' when asked what he thought about it being different from his comics. It was something along the lines of, "The comics are still there, this is just another telling of the story."

If you don't like the show, that's totally fine, but it doesn't ruin Tolkien's work or Peter Jackson's movies.

Just my opinion. 

Amen to that! 

[kimik]

Did anyone else watch episode 3 yet? I thought it progressed things nicely after the first two episodes focussed on world/character development. 

As far as the stranger/wanderer/starman, I think he is most likely Gandalf now and his time being spent with the Harfoots is being used to explain his affinity for Hobbits in the 3rd Age.

[Bosco685]

Episode 3 for me did a good job of expanding the story.

And with all of the characters involved, the show runners seem to be wisely balancing enough screen time evenly to keep viewers engaged with all. Kind of like the Peter Jackson movies.

I'm hooked so far.

[ianh]

Episode 3 was much better. Galadriel showing signs of likeability but annoying still at times. Certainly an improvement over the first two episodes. 

Spoiler

That's got to be Gandalf.

 

[kimik]

I think this show will end up being huge once the action starts. Have they said anything about how far the story will be progressed? I am hoping it goes from the current timeline all the way through to where the movies start in the 3rd age. This is a franchise that Amazon can start to expand as well - the 1st age leading to Morgoth's defeat, side mini-series to build out characters further, etc.

FWIW, it appears to be set before Numenor vs Sauron, which will mean we get to see the full power of Numenor at some point. That will be fun.