Amazon's THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RINGS OF POWER (2022) 5 5

[drotto]

On 9/10/2022 at 11:18 PM, Xenosmilus said:

HoD and RoP meh....I want Conan!!!  Conan will Crush them both!

 

Canon was supposed to be Amazons adult fantasy show and RoP was intended to be their family friendly one.  When creative differences arose with the showrunner, Ryan Condal, Conan was dropped and Wheel of Time was moved into Conan's slot. Ryan Condal is now the showrunner for House of the Dragons. So that decision may be biting Amazon in the posterior. 

[Bosco685]

 

[MetalPSI]

I had thought till now that Numenor was a King or a person of some sort

Not a place

[sfcityduck]

Episode 4 was strong.  I'm a fan! I believe this story is not only about the origin of the rings, but also the story of select ring bearers - both good and bad.  The three elven rings originally went to Gil-Galad (two of them) and on his death to Elrond and Cirdan (and Cirdan gave his to Gandalf) and Galadriel (the third).  Seven to the Dwarf Kings including Durin.  Nine to men and my guess is we may have met two of them already. And the one ring went to Sauron who I believe we've now met (and on his death to Isildur).  

[sfcityduck]

Wow.  Looking at reviews on Amazon. Pretty sad.  This is what I see:

* Many negative reviews by folks who clearly have not viewed the first four episodes.  

* Many negative reviews with a single dumb line like "Not faithful to Tolkien!"

* Many negative reviews by people who admit their original review as taken down due to inappropriate content (likely racist).

* Many negative reviews by people who clearly are just on "team GoT" and want to make a comparison.

The clear conclusion is that Amazon is being spammed with negative reviews from a probable combo of bots, GoT fanboys, and racists.  Sad to see.

(As an aside and full disclosure: I'm a huge fantasy fan. GoT is the first and only fantasy series that I started and gave up on. I did so because it was clear that the Author had lost the thread of his plot only a few books in (and I'm a guy who made it through Wheel of Time including the epic one day of story book!). My decision was vindicated when the author essentially abandoned the book series - apparently having lost all inspiration in his original story. To me, it is telling that media reports reflect that "Should Martin die before finishing the A Song of Ice and Fire series, former collaborators have said that they will not conclude the series for him." Maybe that's a good thing, again based on the weak wrap up of the Wheel of Time (where at least the author, who loved his story and put out books like clockwork, was slow to die and talked plot with the subpar author who tried to wrap up the series). But the quote also suggests that Martin's "former collaborators" don't think the story is worth wrapping up as a book. As for the tv show, I never really it gave it a chance based on the low quality of the "source material" and I'm glad because my son, who was a fanatic, felt the final episode was one of the worst endings possible (as apparently so did the cast), so I'm glad I skipped it. BUT I would never dis the tv series on Amazon due to some sort of "loyalty" JJR Tolkien - that would be crazy. What I see on Amazon from GoT fanboys is crazy.)

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by sfcityduck

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/22/2022 at 1:06 PM, sfcityduck said:

Wow.  Looking at reviews on Amazon. Pretty sad.  This is what I see:

* Many negative reviews by folks who clearly have not viewed the first four episodes.  

* Many negative reviews with a single dumb line like "Not faithful to Tolkien!"

* Many negative reviews by people who admit their original review as taken down due to inappropriate content (likely racist).

* Many negative reviews by people who clearly are just on "team GoT" and want to make a comparison.

The clear conclusion is that Amazon is being spanned with negative reviews from a probable combo of bots, GoT fanboys, and racists.  Sad to see.

Almost every positive review I read is prefaced with some quote in the form of, "obviously they took some creative license". It seems to me that the show has rightfully earned its criticism from Tolkien fans.

[drotto]

On 9/22/2022 at 1:06 PM, sfcityduck said:

Wow.  Looking at reviews on Amazon. Pretty sad.  This is what I see:

* Many negative reviews by folks who clearly have not viewed the first four episodes.  

* Many negative reviews with a single dumb line like "Not faithful to Tolkien!"

* Many negative reviews by people who admit their original review as taken down due to inappropriate content (likely racist).

* Many negative reviews by people who clearly are just on "team GoT" and want to make a comparison.

The clear conclusion is that Amazon is being spanned with negative reviews from a probable combo of bots, GoT fanboys, and racists.  Sad to see.

(As an aside and full disclosure: I'm a huge fantasy fan. GoT is the first and only fantasy series that I started and gave up on. I did so because it was clear that the Author had lost the thread of his plot only a few books in (and I'm a guy who made it through Wheel of Time including the epic one day of story book!). My decision was vindicated when the author essentially abandoned the book series - apparently having lost all inspiration in his original story. To me, it is telling that media reports reflect that "Should Martin die before finishing the A Song of Ice and Fire series, former collaborators have said that they will not conclude the series for him." Maybe that's a good thing, again based on the weak wrap up of the Wheel of Time (where at least the author, who loved his story and put out books like clockwork, was slow to die and talked plot with the subpar author who tried to wrap up the series). But the quote also suggests that Martin's "former collaborators" don't think the story is worth wrapping up as a book. As for the tv show, I never really it gave it a chance based on the low quality of the "source material" and I'm glad because my son, who was a fanatic, felt the final episode was one of the worst endings possible (as apparently so did the cast), so I'm glad I skipped it. BUT I would never dis the tv series on Amazon due to some sort of "loyalty" JJR Tolkien - that would be crazy. What I see on Amazon from GoT fanboys is crazy.)

 

Saying it is not Tolkien and strays too far from the lore is valid criticism. 

 

To me the show is boring and slow.  Feels like it is going nowhere fast. The writing is very inconsistent.  (So what exactly is the rule for an Orc being in the Sun or not, it seems to shift all the time?)  The biggest weakness is Galadriel. She is so far disconnected from her character in LoTR that it is almost irreconcilable, and I personally find her very grating, and the actress is not well cast.

 

The show is middling at best.  It looks nice, but for the budget it better, but remove Lord of the Rings from the title and substitute other names, and it it just generic fantasy.  There is nothing new or original that makes it stand out.  I have seen these plots, characters. Etc many times before. Take the name and budget away, and nobody would even be talking about it, because there is nothing special here.  That is the main problem.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/22/2022 at 2:06 PM, drotto said:

The show is middling at best.  It looks nice, but for the budget it better, but remove Lord of the Rings from the title and substitute other names, and it it just generic fantasy.  There is nothing new or original that makes it stand out.  I have seen these plots, characters. Etc many times before. Take the name and budget away, and nobody would even be talking about it, because there is nothing special here.  That is the main problem.

This appears to be a common sentiment, at least in every corner of social media that I have visited.

Most of the people who seem to like it also tend to admit that they don't read Tolkien. There's nothing wrong with that, but when you produce something based on IP, you're purportedly doing so to appease the fan-base of that material.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/22/2022 at 10:36 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Almost every positive review I read is prefaced with some quote in the form of, "obviously they took some creative license". It seems to me that the show has rightfully earned its criticism from Tolkien fans.

That's B.S., something you know if you have actually read the "source material" and understand what that material truly is as I do as a lifelong Tolkien fan. In addition, that attack is B.S. given that the same folks are lauding the LOTR movies. Here's why:

First, the LOTR movies took massive creative license from the books.  And they did so in a way which repeatedly robbed Frodo and the other Hobbits of their heroic moments. Examples: 

* Cutting the entire Tom Bombadil episode from the front of the story;

* Giving Arwen a massively enhanced role at the expense of Frodo's most heroic moment in the first book; and

* Cutting the "Scouring of the Shire" from the end of the story, which arguably ruined the character arcs of Merry, Pippen, and Sam by denying them the ending that JRR always intended.

These very major material changes to the movie that impacted the story arcs and the extent of the heroism of the hobbits far far more than anything the Rings of Power has done to its source material. But it still was a good movie in my view despite that lack of fidelity. So too in the eyes of many critics of the Rings of Power.  Begging the question:  Why the hypocrisy!?!

Second, the "source material" for the Rings of Power is not "canon" in any sense of the word! The Silmarillion was constructed by JRR's son Christopher and a student of his at Oxford, the gifted author Guy Gavriel Kay, after JRR had died. Kay had this to say about the experience of working on the Silmarillion:

Quote

"I learned a lot about false starts in writing. I mean that in a really serious way. His [Tolkien’s] false starts. You learn that the great works have disastrous botched chapters, that the great writers recognise that they didn’t work. So I was looking at drafts of The Lord of the Rings and rough starts for The Silmarillion and came to realise they don’t spring full-blown, utterly, completely formed in brilliance. They get there with writing and rewriting and drudgery and mistakes, and eventually if you put in the hours and the patience, something good might happen. That was a very, very early lesson for me, looking at the Tolkien materials. That it’s not instantly magnificent. That it’s laboriously so, but it gets there. That was a huge, huge, still important lesson."

The Silmarillion and the other "source material" of the Rings of Power are nothing more than piles of contradictory unfinished tales, rejected false starts, notes, and ideas scribbled on scraps of paper.  Put simply: There is no "canon" because the material on which Rings of Power is based was all "published" after JRR died - sometimes long after - from materials that largely were never intended to be published and which never were put by JRR into a final publishable form. 

And the writers of the Rings of Power are doing a very good job.  They are filling in gaps that JRR offered virtually no details on. Example:

* Galadriel's youth as a warrior is the subject of one published line by JRR. He mentioned she was a warrior and he never filled that in. Rings of Power breathes life into Galadriel's story by showing us what Galadriel was like when she was only a quarter or so into her very long life (equivalent of early to mid-twenties) long before she was shown in the LOTR near the end of her time on Middle Earth as an ancient grandmother (and also mother-in-law to Elrond). It is very welcome to see the ancient and wise bearer of a ring of power as a youthful, strong, heroic, and fiery warrior who has not yet obtained the benefit of that ring. 

* The Fall of Numenor is just the sketchiest of details about the Island and its politics - this story breathes life into those dry tidbits by constructing a vision of the Island that is consistent with Tolkien's vision but embellishes the story with a wealth of plausible details consistent with the spirit of the LOTR;

*  Gandalf's arrival in Middle Earth is alluded to with a reference that basically says no one knows what the Istari were up to for years after their arrival (there is speculation that they were "in the East").  RoP fills that gap by providing an origin story for Gandalf's close relationship with hobbit-kind (a relationship that the Hobbit and the LOTR implies existed for untold years). This is not a contradiction, it is a completion of an unfinished idea with massive gaps that needed embellishment.

They are also, I think, giving us background on certain bearers of the Rings of Power, including the Nine whose stories are largely untold at all. They are filling gaps and doing so in a way that aligns with Tolkiens values.

Third, the only material that might be considered "canon," if that's even a thing with JRR (which I think it clearly is not as he was a constant reviser of his stories), is the Appendixes of the Return of the King.  But that material is sketchy and incomplete at best.  Appendix A has 5.5 pages on the Numenorean Kings of which only 2.5 pages cover the story at issue in the Rings of Power. It is so sketchy it is very hard to contradict except as to dates. Appendix B similarly has less than three pages on the Second Age, the time period of RoP, and that too is nothing more than the barest sketch of a "timeline." Yes, it appears that RoP will compress the timeline, but that is hardly a major or material point in an adaptation. The compression of the timeline serves to make the story more accessible without doing violence to JRR's vision in any meaningful way. The spirit of his vision shines through still in RoP. . 

So the "purity trolls" argument that RoP deviates from the "official history" more than LOTR is total B.S.  There is no "official history" or "canon," just ideas, sketches really, that were only "published" as unfinished tales after JRR's death with modification by his son and others. And now others are now free to pick up and attempt to flesh out those sketches.

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 9/22/2022 at 11:06 AM, drotto said:

The biggest weakness is Galadriel. She is so far disconnected from her character in LoTR that it is almost irreconcilable, and I personally find her very grating, and the actress is not well cast.

 

You do realize that the Galadriel of RoP in the Second Age was a relatively youthful elf? She was only a quarter or so of the way into her long life. The equivalent of a twenty-something.

You also realize that the LOTR took place many thousands of years later, when Galadriel was the oldest elf in Middle Earth, Elrond's mother-in-law, and grandmother of Elrond's children. 

And by the events of the LOTR, Galadriel was under the influence of a Ring of Power - something she does not possess yet in RoP.

The story told here is not that of an ancient elf who largely is a bystander, but of a youthful elf who is a warrior (which is what JRR said she was in her youth). 

So the notion that an old person is disconnected from the person they were in their youth is not a valid criticism but a reflection of the arc a person experiences during their life. 

This criticism displays a lack of understanding of the relationship between the RoP story, which takes place in the Second Age, and the LOTR story which takes place at the very end of the Third Age.

Finally, Galadriel is intended to be grating, impetuous, and, to beat a dead horse, impulsive in her relatively youthful warrior period. That you find her so tells us the writers have started her arc off appropriately. If she was acting like an ancient, Ring of Power enhanced, wise-woman at this point in her life it would be horribly false.

After all, Galadriel was arguably a hothead who was a leader of the rebellion of the Nolder and their flight from Valinor (and who effectively lied about the kinslaying).

Edited September 22, 2022 by sfcityduck

[The Commissioner]

On 9/22/2022 at 1:55 PM, sfcityduck said:

There is no "official history" or "canon," just ideas, sketches really, that were only "published" as unfinished tales after JRR's death with modification by his son and others.

^^^This

I'm a huge Tolkien fan.  I've read The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings series, and The Silmarillion.  I think the show is great and does a really good job of expanding the story from what Tolkien added in the appendices listed at the end of The Return of the King.  If you don't like it, that's fine, but I thoroughly enjoy what they have been doing so far.  If only they gave the dwarf women beards! 

I think it is fine that Galadriel is different from what we have seen in LOTR.  This takes place thousands of years before those events, and you can't expect someone to have so much wisdom and knowledge of the world without getting out there and experiencing it.

One last thing to add (and I cannot stress this enough) This doesn't change Tolkien's work.  If anyone thinks an interpretation of a story ruins the original, then I encourage you to read his books if you haven't already.  The original stories will always be there for you to enjoy.

[The Commissioner]

On 9/22/2022 at 1:06 PM, drotto said:

So what exactly is the rule for an Orc being in the Sun or not, it seems to shift all the time?

Orcs can go out in the sunlight, it is just painful for them, which is why they needed a realm of their own (Mordor) where the sunlight doesn't break through the ash.  This is why the Uruk-hai were such a problem.  They were basically Orcs but they could travel in sunlight without any issues.

[The Commissioner]

If anyone wants to learn more about the history of Middle-Earth without reading the books, I would highly recommend watching Nerd of the Rings on YouTube.  They give brief histories of specific topics from Tolkien's work and they art they show is interesting as well.

https://www.youtube.com/c/NerdoftheRings

[drotto]

On 9/22/2022 at 3:08 PM, sfcityduck said:

You do realize that the Galadriel of RoP in the Second Age was a relatively youthful elf? She was only a quarter or so of the way into her long life. The equivalent of a twenty-something.

You also realize that the LOTR took place many thousands of years later, when Galadriel was the oldest elf in Middle Earth, Elrond's mother-in-law, and grandmother of Elrond's children. 

And by the events of the LOTR, Galadriel was under the influence of a Ring of Power - something she does not possess yet in RoP.

The story told here is not that of an ancient elf who largely is a bystander, but of a youthful elf who is a warrior (which is what JRR said she was in her youth). 

So the notion that an old person is disconnected from the person they were in their youth is not a valid criticism but a reflection of the arc a person experiences during their life. 

This criticism displays a lack of understanding of the relationship between the RoP story, which takes place in the Second Age, and the LOTR story which takes place at the very end of the Third Age.

Finally, Galadriel is intended to be grating, impetuous, and, to beat a dead horse, impulsive in her relatively youthful warrior period. That you find her so tells us the writers have started her arc off appropriately. If she was acting like an ancient, Ring of Power enhanced, wise-woman at this point in her life it would be horribly false.

After all, Galadriel was arguably a hothead who was a leader of the rebellion of the Nolder and their flight from Valinor (and who effectively lied about the kinslaying).

We would agree all day on this, but plain and simple for me, this does not feel like Tolkien.  LOTR despite some changes oozed Tolkien. The Hobbit not so much. This not at all.

 

We can argue what is or is not in the lore. The issue is all Amazon bought was a few appendices, that is all.  So yes, what they own is very limited.  They could still have made it feel more Tolkien.

 

We can go back and forth on Galadriel, but at this point she is at least 1200 years old, and is supposed to be married and have a kid at minimum.  While sketchy, those points are made clear, yet they have changed that also. Given that much life experience, I do not buy or like her charactization here.

 

We can go back and forth on what I consider weak writing. Defeating 5 armed guards in armor without breaking a sweat and basically them stumbling into a cell. The Harfoots going on and on about never leaving someone behind, then oops you get hurt, and see you later. Going from hating elves to we want to join you army in like 1 day(I do understand the falling leaves bit, it is weak). Having a full night to gather belongings to move to a safer fortification, and nobody brings any food.

 

To me the list of no sensical decisions, characterization,  and plot points are just numerous.

 

It also does not help that House of Dragons is airing at the same time and is on a completely different level then RoP.  The plot, look, characters, and acting are just so much better, it actually is shocking to me. I wanted to hate HoD after GoT season 8, and wanted to love Rop, for me it has turned out to be the opposite. 

 

So we can agree to disagree, you can love it.  I am disappointed and find it lacking.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/22/2022 at 1:34 PM, drotto said:

We would agree all day on this, but plain and simple for me, this does not feel like Tolkien.  LOTR despite some changes oozed Tolkien. The Hobbit not so much. This not at all.

 

We can argue what is or is not in the lore. The issue is all Amazon bought was a few appendices, that is all.  So yes, what they own is very limited.  They could still have made it feel more Tolkien.

 

We can go back and forth on Galadriel, but at this point she is at least 1200 years old, and is supposed to be married and have a kid at minimum.  While sketchy, those points are made clear, yet they have changed that also. Given that much life experience, I do not buy or like her charactization here.

 

We can go back and forth on what I consider weak writing. Defeating 5 armed guards in armor without breaking a sweat and basically them stumbling into a cell. The Harfoots going on and on about never leaving someone behind, then oops you get hurt, and see you later. Going from hating elves to we want to join you army in like 1 day(I do understand the falling leaves bit, it is weak). Having a full night to gather belongings to move to a safer fortification, and nobody brings any food.

 

To me the list of no sensical decisions, characterization,  and plot points are just numerous.

 

It also does not help that House of Dragons is airing at the same time and is on a completely different level then RoP.  The plot, look, characters, and acting are just so much better, it actually is shocking to me. I wanted to hate HoD after GoT season 8, and wanted to love Rop, for me it has turned out to be the opposite. 

 

So we can agree to disagree, you can love it.  I am disappointed and find it lacking.

Of course you are free to dislike anything you want. That's everyone's perogative. There's no problem with disagreement. I just don't appreciate the B.S. about the "canon" and "historical accuracy" being spewed on Amazon, some of which is quite clearly motivated out of anger over casting of minorities (which has also been an issue, less so, for HoD).  

Here's where we disagree.  The visual look and feel of RoP is EXACTLY that of LOTR. As is the score. So on a superficial level, the show definitely feels like watching a LOTR movie.

In terms of a comparison to the Hobbit and LOTR, which is not an apples to apples comparison because of the lack of written material underlying RoP, it should be noted that there are no contradictory additions to the story such as Radegast the Brown's ridiculous sled as in the Hobbit and no major omissions of very material parts of the story as in LOTR (as detailed in my post above).

Unlike the Hobbit and the LOTR, this story is being told about a period that JRR barely explored. So if you are trying to derive your "feel" from something you've read (which is I'm sure not the case with GoT or HoD), you really won't be able to do it. This is not the dry history told in an academic voice of the five pages in the Appendix or the sterile and somewhat archaic voice used for the myths told in the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales.  This is the storytelling style of the LOTR. And the range of emotion and style of dialogue we see in RoP is squarely in line with the style of LOTR. 

Your "examples of weak writing" don't resonate with me at all:

* Galadriel defeating five armed guards in armor is not at all implausible given what the LOTR characters were able to achieve in battle, especially when you keep in mind that she was considered by Tolkien as the greatest female elf of them all and is an experienced warrior;

* The Harfoots going on and on about never leaving someone behind is called "irony." The chant and dance was an attempt to psych themselves up because the stark reality is that the Harfoots are almost always leaving someone behind. Why?  Because they are not fighters, they are flighters. They flee. And if you are being chased by someone who can eat you, you don't have to beat the pursuer, just the slowest person in your group. This was made clear in dialogue that you evidently did not focus upon - especially the ceremony where they say "we'll wait for you" regarding the dead. This characterization is entirely in keeping with the way JRR portrayed the general character of Hobbit society and people (stealthy sneaky hiders). The writing was good, but you missed the point.

* "Going from hating elves to we want to join you army in like 1 day (I do understand the falling leaves bit, it is weak)." The central fact of Numenorean society is that their Island was given to them by the Valar for services with the Eldar in the War with Morgoth.  The white tree of Numenor is Nimloth, a gift from the Eldar who reside in neighboring Eressea. It is literally a tree infused with divine essence of holy significance. The fact that the tree commenced to shed leaves at the instant that the Numenoreans turned their back on helping a prominent member of the Eldar is not coincidence but divine message. It is a sign recognizable by the Queen, especially since she already is privy to the vision given to her by the Palantir that Numenor faces destruction by divine forces. It is no surprise she changed course, especially since she does not hate elves. The people followed the lead of their respected leaders, albeit with prompting of speeches and the slowly developing crescendo of volunteers. They got up in the moment.  Happens all the time in our society.

* "Having a full night to gather belongings to move to a safer fortification, and nobody brings any food." First, they were fleeing for their lives. Second, they brought food, just not enough. Third, they were going to a fort and may well have thought they would find food there. It's a minor nitpick that suggests a predisposition to want to find plot flaws that aren't really there. 

Again, I see no reason to compare HoD and RoP. George RR Martin is no Tolkien. He hasn't even completed GoT and may never do so. HoD is, I'm sure, an entertaining fantasy series. That RoP is an entertaining fantasy series is no blow to HoD. They aren't in competition in any real sense. Some people love them both (I'm not one of them). But far too early to be speaking of the "quality of the acting." I am finding the acting on RoP to be quite good, far above the norm for tv. I have no desire to watch HoD, so I won't waste time to make a comparison - as they are apples and oranges. GoT and HoD are aimed at a different audience than LOTR and RoP - an audience that enjoys shows with gratuitous violence and somewhat disturbing sex (definitely good for fans of incest). I'm sure that takes great acting chops! But not my cup of tea. Really two entirely different takes on fantasy. 

Once again, you are entitled to your view, and I respect that it is sincerely held, but your supporting reasons for your view just aren't convincing or correct to me at all. 

 

 

[sfcityduck]

On 9/22/2022 at 1:34 PM, drotto said:

We can go back and forth on Galadriel, but at this point she is at least 1200 years old, and is supposed to be married and have a kid at minimum.  While sketchy, those points are made clear, yet they have changed that also. Given that much life experience, I do not buy or like her charactization here.

 

Not sure where you get any of this. First, no one has suggested Galadriel is or is not married at this point in the RoP story that I can recall.

Second, as for Galadriel's daughter, Tolkien's notes state that Celebrian was not born until AFTER Galadriel refused to return to Tol Eressea in the Second Age. So there is no reason to think Celebrian must necessarily be born now. Celebrian did not meet Elrond until late in the Second Age and they did not marry until the Third Age.  So there is no reason to believe that Galadriel necessarily must have a daughter at the time of the RoP.

Third, as for Galadriel's degree of "life experience," 1,200 years is not that much for an elf who was over 7,100 years in the LOTR. And her "life experience" at the time Sauron re-emerged consisted of less than 150 years before the trees were killed, another almost 600 years of the War with Morgoth, and 500 years or so between Morgoth's death and Sauron's return.  During this time she was largely a vengeful warrior. The subsequent 6,000 years, in which she gained a Ring of Power and had her daughter, undoubtedly gave her many more "life experiences" which tempered her character and made her more wise than the Galadriel we see in this show - and again it bears emphasis that she was part of the hot-headed Nolder who rebelled.

As I said, your nitpics are not convincing or correct as far as I can tell.

Edited September 22, 2022 by sfcityduck

[drotto]

On 9/22/2022 at 5:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

Not sure where you get any of this. First, no one has suggested Galadriel is or is not married at this point in the RoP story that I can recall.

Second, as for Galadriel's daughter, Tolkien's notes state that Celebrian was not born until AFTER Galadriel refused to return to Tol Eressea in the Second Age. So there is no reason to think Celebrian must necessarily be born now. Celebrian did not meet Elrond until late in the Second Age and they did not marry until the Third Age.  So there is no reason to believe that Galadriel necessarily must have a daughter at the time of the RoP.

Third, as for Galadriel's degree of "life experience," 1,200 years is not that much for an elf who was over 7,100 years in the LOTR. And her "life experience" at the time Sauron re-emerged consisted of less than 150 years before the trees were killed, another almost 600 years of the War with Morgoth, and 500 years or so between Morgoth's death and Sauron's return.  During this time she was largely a vengeful warrior. The subsequent 6,000 years, in which she gained a Ring of Power and had her daughter, undoubtedly gave her many more "life experiences" which tempered her character and made her more wise than the Galadriel we see in this show - and again it bears emphasis that she was part of the hot-headed Nolder who rebelled.

As I said, your nitpics are not convincing or correct as far as I can tell.

I was just responding, and I disagree with you. I just feel like the show is not very good, and does not feel like Tolkien.  I think there are many valid criticisms about how the show is being done.  You made the first post with this blanket statement that basically all criticisms of the show were invalid based upon your hand picked examples of bad faith reviews. These may very well be bad faith reviews, it does not mean all of them are, and there have been a few lately from Forbes and a few others, that bring up very similar criticisms to mine. I especially think that people saying this does not feel like Tolkien is very valid, but you are free to disagree. 

 

 

[drotto]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2022/09/18/the-rings-of-power-has-inexplicably-terrible-writing/?sh=178aa75718a0

 

This is the link to the Forbe article, I agree with most of it.

[Dr. Love]

On 9/22/2022 at 2:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

your nitpics are not convincing

Dirty elf lover!

[sfcityduck]

On 9/22/2022 at 4:49 PM, drotto said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2022/09/18/the-rings-of-power-has-inexplicably-terrible-writing/?sh=178aa75718a0

 

This is the link to the Forbe article, I agree with most of it.

Rotten Tomatoes has RoP at an 85% fresh rating with critics. Understandable that there will be critics who are, well, overly critical. I see where you got the points that shape your view as they are basically what this guy focuses on.  I do agree with him on the look and feel of the show, a view I know you don't share with this critic or me:  

Quote

It knows how to shoot pretty slow-motion shots of elves on horses or orcs leaping through the trees. It gets the giant statues of ancient elven kings and shining cities just right. It has a sweeping score that’s lovely to listen to—but is, like the show’s melodrama, perhaps a little too incessant. This is a show of spectacle and it gets the spectacle mostly right.

It looks much more like a movie than most everything else on tv right now, and not surprisingly is a tight fit with the visuals of the LOTR.

As for his critiques of the writers, I addressed those when you made them above. I don't give them more credibility because some yahoo at Forbes came up with them.  He doesn't appear to know his Tolkien at all (won't even address the significance of the tree) or to be paying enough attention to the details in the scenes with Harfoots. Instead, he entirely misconstrues the "no one shall be left behind" and "we shall wait chants" and the basic nature of hobbit-kind at that point in time.  Fight or flight?  They take flight and harfoots are frequently left behind hence the irony of the rituals and the stakes in a migration.  Those kind of mistakes cost credibility.  After all, Tolkien had many examples of flawed Hobbits in his books.  

I prefer this take, which shows the difficulty taking on something with as big readership as Tolkien faces (a problem not faced by GoT spinoff HoD):

Quote

The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power has to serve two discerning audiences. There are the die-hard J. R. R. Tolkien fans who've read every page and seen the adaptations of his epic fantasy. Then you have neophytes with passing knowledge just seeking good television. Amazon's mega-budget adventure hits a bullseye for both at mid-season. Superb visual effects, intriguing characters, solid storytelling, and blockbuster action scenes brim each episode. The show takes the time to build exposition but never stagnates or meanders. This isn't a series with hobbits, wizards, elves, and dwarves plodding along.

....

The Rings of Power production team and suits at Amazon Studios deserve credit for meeting sky-high expectations. I applaud the diverse casting. Racists and trolls crow loudly but are outlier haters. Having a fantasy series meant for a global audience representing everyone is a no-brainer. The near billion-dollar cost of acquiring the rights and producing season one could have been a huge failure. The glowing critical reception and astonishing ratings prove their success so far. They nailed the casting of Galadriel. Morfydd Clark is fantastic as a nascent, headstrong version of a revered character. I have been hooked. The remaining four episodes have a lot of meat on the bone to chew. Continue going big and bold, anything less would be playing it safe after a banner start to the series.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by sfcityduck