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Amazon's THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RINGS OF POWER (2022)
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Started by Bosco685,

630 posts in this topic

theCapraAegagrus

theCapraAegagrus

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On 9/23/2022 at 11:16 AM, sfcityduck said:

LoL!  Your "There is no discussion to be had with you on this subject" position lasted five minutes.

Look, if you want to swim in the deep end of the pool you need to dive deep. I'm happy to discuss fidelity to the source material with specific examples and evidence. I've done that above. You, on the other hand, just want to say it takes to long to read such posts (and presumably the source material) and want to rely on the argument that "many people say X" as your support.  But guess what?  Many people say all sorts of stupid and incorrect things, especially when they are just reporting what others say. When a politician says "many people say" you can pretty much assume that they are lying. When folks on an internet message board say "many people say" you can pretty much rightly assume that they have done no independent evaluation as to whether what "many people say" is correct or false. Usually, if all you've got is "many people say" in response to actual evidence and analysis, you can assume you've been duped. 

My last reply simply reiterated that there isn't a discussion. Is your internet ego really this hungry? I haven't cared enough to read your essays, so I'm not sure why you bother talking to the wind.

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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On 9/23/2022 at 8:19 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

My last reply simply reiterated that there isn't a discussion. Is your internet ego really this hungry? I haven't cared enough to read your essays, so I'm not sure why you bother talking to the wind.

LoL! But you care enough to keep responding to my posts. :wink:

 

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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On 9/23/2022 at 8:22 AM, The Commissioner said:

Perhaps this discussion can be moved somewhere else and this thread can go back to discussing the episodes themselves. :foryou:

I haven't seen today's episode, but I'm really looking forward to watching it tonight!

If you look at my posts up thread, you'll see that I am addressing the episodes with specific references and examples. The problems is that the folks pushing a lot of the generic criticisms of RoP are doing so without any analysis. They don't want to have a real discussion. It is sad and does detract from the enjoyment of just discussing the show with like-minded fans not concerned with the politics. But you can't let misstatements stand unrebutted when they are outragously asserted for improper motivations.

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drotto

drotto

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On 9/23/2022 at 11:10 AM, sfcityduck said:

More B.S.  Amazon did not "get caught." Amazon publicly turned off reviews while they fought a  battle with bots and spamming. Amazon was deleting obvious bot reviews and reviews with inappropriate (such as racist) content. The fact that after their clean-up they immediately got hit with thousands of new one-star reviews is pretty much prima facie evidence they are indeed being botted and spammed. The notion they were attempting to secretly inflate reviews is rebutted by the fact that they publicly turned off comments and then opened the comments back up. Sadly, it appears they don't have a good means to guard against bots and spamming.

Then they lost the battle, and the rating was accurate, because why would it go up and then go back down to what it was previously?  If they successfully identified and removed the inaccurate, unverifiable bombing reviews, that score would have increased. Amazon has also already stated they are screening all reviews for spam before they are posted, and have said they are rejecting reviews.  Plus a 3.3 rating on their own site is not very good.  It is the Same as Wheel of Time. For comparison, many Amazon Shows seem to be much better received, and it is in fact one of their lowest rated originals.  

The Boys is at 4

A League of Their Own has a 4.5

The Expanse 4.5

Reacher 4.6

The Terminal List 4.6

 

Again, you can love this show, anyone can love this show.  But, even taking review bombing into account it has not been as well received or as liked as Amazon had hoped for, your opinion is valid, but it is not he only valid opinion.  Tons of people were prepared to hate House of Dragon, and the opposite seems to be happening where many people are being won over. While RoP is proving to be very divisive, and by the last 3 or 4 pages on this thread, I think that has been proven.

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CGC Mike

CGC Mike

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On 9/23/2022 at 11:22 AM, sfcityduck said:
On 9/23/2022 at 11:19 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

My last reply simply reiterated that there isn't a discussion. Is your internet ego really this hungry? I haven't cared enough to read your essays, so I'm not sure why you bother talking to the wind.

LoL! But you care enough to keep responding to my posts. :wink:

It appears that both of you need to stop responding to each other in this thread. 

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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On 9/23/2022 at 8:54 AM, drotto said:

Then they lost the battle, and the rating was accurate, because why would it go up and then go back down to what it was previously?  If they successfully identified and removed the inaccurate, unverifiable bombing reviews, that score would have increased.

The rating did increase after they removed posts. But, you're right, they did lose the battle because when they turned the comments back on, they immediately got hit with thousands of one star reviews. Do you really think people were sitting at their computers hitting refresh waiting for Amazon to turn reviews back on?  Maybe some, but the rapid increase in one star reviews, four to five episodes in, is strong evidence that Amazon is being spammed by bots and folks with a political agenda. Most normal people who dislike a show after an episode or two just give up and stop paying attention to it. They don't linger at review sites waiting for the opportunity to drop more one-star reviews.

The key lesson of the last few years is that bots can impersonate people on twitter, on review sites, on message boards etc. and create the appearance of much greater support for an idea than actually exists. So user review now are ultimately nothing more than noise where we can't sort the wheat from the chaff. 

That HoD may be subject to less negative reviews than RoP is probably mostly a reflection that HoD is not viewed in the same illustrious light by the folks who are politically upset with RoP and so they care much less about it. HoD is a recent made for tv property. Sadly, LOTR published in the 1950s has a segment of racist fans who have wrongly viewed LOTR as endorsing their views.  Their anger at LOTR:RoP is much more personal and intense. And the HoD fanboys could be spamming RoP out of misplaced sports mentality given the many negative reviews that want to draw negative comparisons between the two shows. Something I don't see happening with any frequency by RoP fans. I don't really care which is more popular on message boards between HoD and RoP right now. There is room for many popular shows.

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Bosco685

Bosco685

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On 9/23/2022 at 11:22 AM, The Commissioner said:

I haven't seen today's episode, but I'm really looking forward to watching it tonight!

Since you come across as a deep Tolkien fan, look forward to your feedback what you took away from this episode.

Spoiler

There is one scene (no spoilers intended) where someone is asked if they are Sauron, and they go off. But not sure if that was rage against the reference or annoyance it was even hinted at.

 

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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On 9/23/2022 at 11:41 AM, Bosco685 said:

Since you come across as a deep Tolkien fan, look forward to your feedback what you took away from this episode.

  Hide contents

There is one scene (no spoilers intended) where someone is asked if they are Sauron, and they go off. But not sure if that was rage against the reference or annoyance it was even hinted at.

 

I will be watching it tonight.  Someone sent me a great quote from a letter that Tolkien wrote to his publisher Milton Waldman in 1951 around the time LOTR was being readied for publication that is really relevant to RoP.  Tolkien relayed that his goal was: 

Quote

to make a body of more or less collected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic to the level of romantic fairy-story....  I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands wielding paint and music and drama.

And I think that is exactly what he has accomplished. Tolkien created the path with room for and the intent that others would build it out, and that is finally happening now.

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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On 9/23/2022 at 11:41 AM, Bosco685 said:

Since you come across as a deep Tolkien fan, look forward to your feedback what you took away from this episode.

  Reveal hidden contents

There is one scene (no spoilers intended) where someone is asked if they are Sauron, and they go off. But not sure if that was rage against the reference or annoyance it was even hinted at.

 

Watched it early. Here's my thoughts (potential and actual spoilers maybe):

Spoiler

The Gandalf/Harfoot saga is really interesting and plausible. If the Stranger is Gandalf, as appears certain, then the actor playing the Stranger is doing an incredible job in the role because he sure looks and acts like Gandalf to me. Well written and well acted. And totally new territory except for the general path of the Harfoot migration and locales.

It now appears to me that Adar is not Sauron. The writers have done a good job of misdirection and messing with our expectations. If Adar's not Sauron, then the pace of this show may be much slower than it initially appears. We may think we know what's going on, but we are really just on a path to a skirmish. Will Sauron appear in this season and return to Numenor to help overthrow the queen?  Could happen.  But could easily happen in Season 2 or beyond, and right now we're just seeing Numenor start to build a presence on Middle Earth with the big wars and Sauron's captivity on Numenor to happen later. After all, Sauron is supposed to be duping the Elves with regard to the forging of the rings around this point. We will see how the writers handle the timing issues. I'm betting that the duping of elves of Eriador starts this season and Sauron corrupting Numenor happers in a later season.

The interesting appearance was the blond guy in white. Saruman and other Istari or Sauron himself?  I think he may well be Sauron.  Sauron was described by Tolkien as appearing fair at this point, which Adar certainly doesn't appear, and the blond guy in white's show of anger at traces of Gandalf to his companions suggests that it isn't Saruman (who would have been welcoming to a member of his brotherhood as he was not yet corrupted).  Look for blond guy to go hang with Celebrimbor and make rings sometime this season or next. 

I can only assume that Halbrand is a candidate to become one of the Nine or will become some sort of redeemed and trusted aid to Elendil. He may even exist to make us think there is a romantic possibility with Galadriel which could end up with the big reveal that she's already married to Celeborn. Celeborn was either hanging out in Harlindon or Eriador at this time, and there's no reason why they could not have spent time apart - being long lived elves after all. Again, interesting to see how it develops.

Again, if any speculation of mine above is correct, this thing is moving slower than we thought and is adhering more closely to the sequence of the Appendixes than we might have expected. We're seeing events that undoubtedly took months condensed into a single episode - most obviously shown with the migration cut scene and map. We may see years pass similarly.  

Finally, I find Galadriel's fighting skills very plausible and in line with other LOTR heroes. Those who thought it was a sign of bad writing that she could best a few prison guards caught unaware were making mountains out of nothing.

 

 

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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On 9/23/2022 at 4:57 PM, Bosco685 said:

 

Thanks for posting this.  But it is strange to me that someone is doing a 27 minute recap of a one-hour show. It is even stranger to me when the first discussion point is where are the Harfoots migrating when earlier episodes established that the Stranger landed in the general vicinity of the Southlands (e.g. Mordor) and Appendix B of the LOTR and other sources makes it pretty clear that the various types of Hobbits were originally living in the Southlands and made their way northward until much later crossing over to Eriador. The map of the migration makes it fairly clear that they are migrating northwards. Once I got past that slow start, the video presents a lot of interesting speculation of varying degrees of persuasiveness. I am prepared to rethink Adar as Sauron despite his complete lack of a "fair" visage, but hey he could easily be a shapechanger. I am not sure what the gender of the white robed short haired person is, I saw a male in white robes not female, so to me still a Sauron candidate.  I don't buy Harbrand as a candidate for being Sauron at all.

I do think the narrator of the videos is a little too tied to information in the Appendixes which is presented in that text as speculation: E.g. In the Third Age "...the Istari or Wizards first appeared in Middle Earth. It was afterwards said they came out of the far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron...."  These are not definitive statements, they are supposed to be a history written by a Hobbit with limited access to the facts. It may well be that the Istari arrived earlier yet did not reveal their presence as they learned their limits, their power, and investigated Middle Earth. 

JRR kept things vague for a reason and there is plenty of flexibility.

What makes RoP fun though are the Easter eggs and avenues for speculation. 

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Beige

Beige

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I'm watching,but not following too much tbh.

It may have been better served by dropping 2 eps a week instead of one,to aid continuity.

I think I'm getting 30% and missing 70% of whats actually 'the big picture'

Visually great,but story confusing.

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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On 9/23/2022 at 6:26 PM, Beige said:

I'm watching,but not following too much tbh.

It may have been better served by dropping 2 eps a week instead of one,to aid continuity.

I think I'm getting 30% and missing 70% of whats actually 'the big picture'

Visually great,but story confusing.

I agree its easier to follow if you've read a lot.

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