BLACK WIDOW: THE MOVIE (TBD) 4 4

[@therealsilvermane]

5 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

No he didn't. That was the MCC before Feige wisely distanced himself from their involvement going forward with any MCU productions. They even caused Joss Whedon to have a nervous breakdown over the MCC constantly changing his --script that at the end of Age of Ultron he said he would never do another Marvel movie again (but then changed his mind later and recanted that statement).

Well whatever the case, directors still can't go auteur on Marvel characters. As crazy as I'm expecting Eternals to be, Chloe Zhao will still be keeping it within the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Directors just can't do what they want at Marvel like Todd Philips did with Joker.

[Bosco685]

10 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Well whatever the case, directors still can't go auteur on Marvel characters. As crazy as I'm expecting Eternals to be, Chloe Zhao will still be keeping it within the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Directors just can't do what they want at Marvel like Todd Philips did with Joker.

That MCC may have helped early on (supposedly). But over time the lot of them tampered with stories as representatives of Ike Perlmutter to the point Feige was about to walk away. Another incredibly smart business move on the part of Disney's CEO in realizing what he was about to lose over petty executives.

What Todd Phillips did was supported by higher WB executives above Walter Hamada's pay grade. He didn't just go off and do whatever. It's just those same executives that supported the film also didn't understand it so they went and spread the investment risk across three companies. Yet the film was a massive success and won more awards than any MCU film has. Thank God we have the cookie-cutter MCU on one hand and other studios doing something else.

We don't need blinders on film and TV creators with 'do it only one way'. That would be short-sighted and very stale over time.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Bosco685

[drotto]

6 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Comic book popularity has nothing to do with MCU character selection. Or did you think all that money spent was on comic book fans only?

That would go totally against your entire 'A-List', 'B-List, 'whatever list criteria I am going with for today'.

Plus, making a Black Widow movie is proof that Marvel feels that the demand is there.  Marvel feels a movie about a female spy is viable, otherwise they would not have spend $180 million on it (that number may be wrong).  They made this movie based on a D character. I still believe the demand was there earlier and it was possible higher a few years back.  I still do not understand why this movie was not made years ago.

 

The movie existence invalidates all your arguments.

[D84]

They've delayed this movie so many times, I wonder if they only shot a trailer.

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, drotto said:

Plus, making a Black Widow movie is proof that Marvel feels that the demand is there.  Marvel feels a movie about a female spy is viable, otherwise they would not have spend $180 million on it (that number may be wrong).  They made this movie based on a D character. I still believe the demand was there earlier and it was possible higher a few years back.  I still do not understand why this movie was not made years ago.

 

The movie existence invalidates all your arguments.

Assuming that is directed toward someone else. He's taking a sip right now.

Meanwhile, comic book popularity has nothing to do with MCU film staging selection. It is about what supports the ever-growing franchise story. And with Black Widow this film made perfect sense three-four films back. Easily!

[@therealsilvermane]

2 minutes ago, drotto said:

Plus, making a Black Widow movie is proof that Marvel feels that the demand is there.  Marvel feels a movie about a female spy is viable, otherwise they would not have spend $180 million on it (that number may be wrong).  They made this movie based on a D character. I still believe the demand was there earlier and it was possible higher a few years back.  I still do not understand why this movie was not made years ago.

 

The movie existence invalidates all your arguments.

Then why do so many people on this forum seem to be dismissing Black Widow? It's not just here. A lot of people on social media are dismissing this movie and say they're not interested.

[Bosco685]

Just now, @therealsilvermane said:

Then why do so many people on this forum seem to be dismissing Black Widow? It's not just here. A lot of people on social media are dismissing this movie and say they're not interested.

You know why people are saying this. I'll give you one reminder on the release calendar.

2019 moved into 2020 (x 3) and now finally in 2021 it finally is moving forward. People are shocked how fixated Disney was on sheer profits over smart safety while still working through its Disney+ channel to still make money directly and through subscriptions. It was ignorant!

[Gatsby77]

7 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Comic book popularity has nothing to do with MCU character selection. Or did you think all that money spent was on comic book fans only?

No - it doesn't.

But Marvel's also earned that right. About the only thing Marvel's proven is that nobody really wants to see a Hulk solo film.

Meanwhile, they've crafted *amazing* stories out of such characters as Guardians of the Galaxy, Scarlett Witch, Captain Marvel and Jessica Jones (still counts).

The difference is, DC hasn't. They can't even produce a decent Flash, Green Lantern, or (theatrical) Justice League film with their A-listers.

And the disarray leads to announcements, plot threads and teasers that go nowhere. Man of Steel 2? Deathstroke? Justice League 2? Flash/Flashpoint/The Flash? New Gods?

I just don't get it.

That said, Aquaman and Shazam were each better than they had any right to be.

And the first Wonder Woman film was Nolan Batman caliber.

 

But hell - it's 2021 and I can say I've literally enjoyed more adaptations of Mark Millar comic books than I have DCEU films (Wanted, Kick-, Logan, Civil War, Kingsmen). That's pathetic.

[@therealsilvermane]

14 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Thank God we have the cookie-cutter MCU on one hand and other studios doing something else.

"Cookie cutter?!" Ah it never ends this vicious cycle...

First, Marvel Studios created their own cookie molds in Phase One, so if there's a formula being followed it's their own. But then if you look at every Marvel film, even though they exist in the same story universe, they're all so different from each other in tone and feel. They're almost like different genres when you compare Winter Soldier to Guardians of the Galaxy. How is that cookie cutter? In Infinity War, the bad guy is the featured character and wins. I see that as a little out of the box and not cookie cutter at all. Not to mention the new creative bounds they broke with WandaVision and seem to be doing in Falcon Winter Soldier by focusing on their personal lives.

Edited March 24, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[drotto]

1 minute ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Then why do so many people on this forum seem to be dismissing Black Widow? It's not just here. A lot of people on social media are dismissing this movie and say they're not interested.

That has more to do with Covid and the timing of movie more then anything else, it should have come out years ago. It is far harder to tell a interesting and relevant story about a character who we already know how their story ends. This is where the lack of interest comes from, along with getting pushed back so many times. By killing her Marvel has signaled they are done with the character, are you surprised the fans then feel the same way?

 

Fans wanted a film, making a film about a dead character feels like an afterthought. 

 

 

[Bosco685]

37 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

No - it doesn't.

But Marvel's also earned that right. About the only thing Marvel's proven is that nobody really wants to see a Hulk solo film.

Meanwhile, they've crafted *amazing* stories out of such characters as Guardians of the Galaxy, Scarlett Witch, Captain Marvel and Jessica Jones (still counts).

The difference is, DC hasn't. They can't even produce a decent Flash, Green Lantern, or (theatrical) Justice League film with their A-listers.

And the disarray leads to announcements, plot threads and teasers that go nowhere. Man of Steel 2? Deathstroke? Justice League 2? Flash/Flashpoint/The Flash? New Gods?

I just don't get it.

That said, Aquaman and Shazam were each better than they had any right to be.

And the first Wonder Woman film was Nolan Batman caliber.

 

But hell - it's 2021 and I can say I've literally enjoyed more adaptations of Mark Millar comic books than I have DCEU films (Wanted, Kick-, Logan, Civil War, Kingsmen). That's pathetic.

Comic book popularity has nothing to do with MCU character selection. It is simple as that. This distractor you throw in of 'MCU vs DC' has got to be one of the silliest debating approaches. And obvious.

[Bosco685]

36 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

"Cookie cutter?!" Ah it never ends this vicious cycle...

First, Marvel Studios created their own cookie molds in Phase One, so if there's a formula being followed it's their own. But then if you look at every Marvel film, even though they exist in the same story universe, they're all so different from each other in tone and feel. They're almost like different genres when you compare Winter Soldier to Guardians of the Galaxy. How is that cookie cutter? In Infinity War, the bad guy is the featured character and wins. I see that as a little out of the box and not cookie cutter at all. Not to mention the new creative bounds they broke with WandaVision and seem to be doing in Falcon Winter Soldier by focusing on their personal lives.

Drama, it is very true as you even noted directors are not allowed to deviate from the MCU approach. Or did you forget this statement you made?

[@therealsilvermane]

7 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Drama, it is very true as you even noted directors are not allowed to deviate from the MCU approach. Or did you forget this statement you made?

I meant that everything they do has to fit within the story of the larger MCU. Cookie cutter approach means making the same movie over and over again which I don’t think Marvel does at all, though Martin Scorsese might say different even though he’s never seen a Marvel film apparently.

[Bosco685]

2 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I meant that everything they do has to fit within the story of the larger MCU. Cookie cutter approach means making the same movie over and over again which I don’t think Marvel does at all, though Martin Scorsese might say different even though he’s never seen a Marvel film apparently.

Again, you are misinterpreting what people say because you get extra-sensitive over anything referring to the MCU.

Scorsese made an off-the-cuff comment how these films don't focus of the single story itself but rather constantly building out a larger franchise. Do I completely agree with him? Of course not. Many of these MCU films have been a fantastic experience. But yes, there are times quality of the story is sacrificed to keep a longer story going. Even WandaVision had this where comic book references were inserted in many places whether in the commercials, animations, credits, on display if you know your comic book source material. That's not keeping all of the general audience in mind. Though people still love much of these productions.

[@therealsilvermane]

10 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Again, you are misinterpreting what people say because you get extra-sensitive over anything referring to the MCU.

Scorsese made an off-the-cuff comment how these films don't focus of the single story itself but rather constantly building out a larger franchise. Do I completely agree with him? Of course not. Many of these MCU films have been a fantastic experience. But yes, there are times quality of the story is sacrificed to keep a longer story going. Even WandaVision had this where comic book references were inserted in many places whether in the commercials, animations, credits, on display if you know your comic book source material. That's not keeping all of the general audience in mind. Though people still love much of these productions.

Mm, is that what Scorsese said? I don’t think he had a concept of the expanded universe thing because he has no idea what the movies are about. To him they’re just roller coaster rides that limit the chance for smaller films to exist because of money and they take up all the space because there’s so many of them and they’re so popular. I think he was referring to all comic book movies when he said Marvel movies because I’m sure Scorsese can’t differentiate between Marvel and DC. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Mm, is that what Scorsese said? I don’t think he had a concept of the expanded universe thing because he has no idea what the movies are about. To him they’re just roller coaster rides that limit the chance for smaller films to exist because of money and they take up all the space because there’s so many of them and they’re so popular. I think he was referring to all comic book movies when he said Marvel movies because I’m sure Scorsese can’t differentiate between Marvel and DC. 

I don't know. The way you went on and on about Scorsese offending the MCU I was looking for the police report to come out where he snuck into your house at night and stole your Captain Marvel #1.

He's coming! Watch out.

[@therealsilvermane]

4 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I don't know. The way you went on and on about Scorsese offending the MCU I was looking for the police report to come out where he snuck into your house at night and stole your Captain Marvel #1.

He's coming! Watch out.

It was just a little tough for me to see my hero from youth throwing shade at my heroes from youth. It was like family in-fighting for me. I started having flashbacks of adults in my life who told me my comic books were worthless garbage. Scorsese was kind of doing the same thing.

[Bosco685]

Just now, @therealsilvermane said:

It was just a little tough for me to see my hero from youth throwing shade at my heroes from youth. It was like family in-fighting for me. I started having flashbacks of adults in my life who told me my comic books were worthless garbage. Scorsese was kind of doing the same thing.

I didn't take it that way.

He is involved in many studio discussions we never hear of. I bet many over the years have gone from interesting in independent films and unique stories to 'Give me the next Avengers'. So for all we know this is becoming louder and louder, snuffing out many small films that never had a chance when they are compared to that benchmark of making a billion or more.

[@therealsilvermane]

19 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I didn't take it that way.

He is involved in many studio discussions we never hear of. I bet many over the years have gone from interesting in independent films and unique stories to 'Give me the next Avengers'. So for all we know this is becoming louder and louder, snuffing out many small films that never had a chance when they are compared to that benchmark of making a billion or more.

I just read Scorsese's NY Times Op-Ed where he explains his Marvel Films Aren't Cinema statement. First he explains the cinema he considers art which I'm very familiar with. I also think he's wrong in some aspects as I think one can get the cinematic experience he's talking about in Black Panther or Batman 1989. And that he uses Wes Anderson films as one of his examples of higher cinema also gives me pause.  His attack then  is on franchise movies in general and how they cannibalize the ability for smaller films he considers art to be seen because of all the money involved. And I think he's wrong again. There are many independent cinemas out there, and even multiplexes show the smaller films like The Revenant, and yes, Wes Anderson movies. Also there's this thing called television and streaming Mr Scorsese may not have heard about. But I guess he did because that's how The Irishman was shown, on Netflix. That may have been core to his beef with super-hero movies. I think he blames them for Irishman not getting screened nationally at the cinemplex. He's a theater purist, I know. When he attacked Marvel movies, he meant franchise cinema. Marvel is the biggest franchise right now. He's never actually seen a Marvel movie. Scorsese basically called my comic books garbage just like some of our parents and teachers did.

So if his attack is on franchise cinema, does that include the franchise films of his buddies Steven Spielberg and George Lucas?

Edited March 24, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

26 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I just read Scorsese's NY Times Op-Ed where he explains his Marvel Films Aren't Cinema statement. First he explains the cinema he considers art which I'm very familiar with. I also think he's wrong in some aspects as I think one can get the cinematic experience he's talking about in Black Panther or Batman 1989. And that he uses Wes Anderson films as one of his examples of higher cinema also gives me pause.  His attack then  is on franchise movies in general and how they cannibalize the ability for smaller films he considers art to be seen because of all the money involved. And I think he's wrong again. There are many independent cinemas out there, and even multiplexes show the smaller films like The Revenant, and yes, Wes Anderson movies. Also there's this thing called television and streaming Mr Scorsese may not have heard about. But I guess he did because that's how The Irishman was shown, on Netflix. That may have been core to his beef with super-hero movies. I think he blames them for Irishman not getting screened nationally at the cinemplex. He's a theater purist, I know. When he attacked Marvel movies, he meant franchise cinema. Marvel is the biggest franchise right now. He's never actually seen a Marvel movie. Scorsese basically called my comic books garbage just like some of our parents and teachers did.

So if his attack is on franchise cinema, does that include the franchise films of his buddies Steven Spielberg and George Lucas?

You're getting more worked up over this than you need to. He isn't going to change the trend of people desiring these movies.

Just an industry legend sharing his opinion.