BLACK WIDOW: THE MOVIE (TBD) 4 4

[drotto]

30 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I just read Scorsese's NY Times Op-Ed where he explains his Marvel Films Aren't Cinema statement. First he explains the cinema he considers art which I'm very familiar with. I also think he's wrong in some aspects as I think one can get the cinematic experience he's talking about in Black Panther or Batman 1989. And that he uses Wes Anderson films as one of his examples of higher cinema also gives me pause.  His attack then  is on franchise movies in general and how they cannibalize the ability for smaller films he considers art to be seen because of all the money involved. And I think he's wrong again. There are many independent cinemas out there, and even multiplexes show the smaller films like The Revenant, and yes, Wes Anderson movies. Also there's this thing called television and streaming Mr Scorsese may not have heard about. But I guess he did because that's how The Irishman was shown, on Netflix. That may have been core to his beef with super-hero movies. I think he blames them for Irishman not getting screened nationally at the cinemplex. He's a theater purist, I know. When he attacked Marvel movies, he meant franchise cinema. Marvel is the biggest franchise right now. He's never actually seen a Marvel movie. Scorsese basically called my comic books garbage just like some of our parents and teachers did.

So if his attack is on franchise cinema, does that include the franchise films of his buddies Steven Spielberg and George Lucas?

Different people want different things out of movies.  Personally, I watch movies for fun, laughs, and escapism.  I have never been into deep thought provoking movies.   I work hard, life is stressful so I am not pulled to movies that are depressing or deep,  even if they are great cinema.   Scorsese is looking at films as art, and they can be.  The MCU is not art in the way cinemaphiles look at films. So what he likes and what I like my overlap,  but often do not.

[▫️]

4 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

It was just a little tough for me to see my hero from youth throwing shade at my heroes from youth. It was like family in-fighting for me. I started having flashbacks of adults in my life who told me my comic books were worthless garbage. Scorsese was kind of doing the same thing.

I feel the same way actually but in the end if I had to choose one, Scorsese takes it by a landslide. There were mentions of how the general interest is waning for a solo Hulk movie or even this Widow movie. I want this BW flick bad! Disney made a mistake in not streaming it sooner when other studios unleashed their barrage of hits. Yes even Disney makes mistakes. They were worried about their bottom line on BW and that cost them the interest in their product. The shelf life of interest is short. Like the attention span of teenagers.

As for a Hulk movie I’ve often thought that using the same actors (Eric Bana/Jennifer Connely) and CGI look of the Hulk from the first film and the general concept and story from the second one would have been something. The over-the-top cartoony Hulk from Ang Lee’s version was wonderful. I love the look of Marvels Hulk now but hate the way Ruffalo portrays Banner. Great actor but hate his portrayal. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Oddball

[theCapraAegagrus]

17 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

...the one MCU film of theirs where I found hardly any plot holes but that should have been full of them because it's a time travel movie is Endgame.

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

[@therealsilvermane]

6 hours ago, Oddball said:

I feel the same way actually but in the end if I had to choose one, Scorsese takes it by a landslide. There were mentions of how the general interest is waning for a solo Hulk movie or even this Widow movie. I want this BW flick bad! Disney made a mistake in not streaming it sooner when other studios unleashed their barrage of hits. Yes even Disney makes mistakes. They were worried about their bottom line on BW and that cost them the interest in their product. The shelf life of interest is short. Like the attention span of teenagers.

As for a Hulk movie I’ve often thought that using the same actors (Eric Bana/Jennifer Connely) and CGI look of the Hulk from the first film and the general concept and story from the second one would have been something. The over-the-top cartoony Hulk from Ang Lee’s version was wonderful. I love the look of Marvels Hulk now but hate the way Ruffalo portrays Banner. Great actor but hate his portrayal. 

Well you don't have to really choose a side in this case. Scorsese just answered the question when someone asked what he thought of Marvel movies while on his The Irishman press tour. He said Marvel films aren't "cinema" the way a Paul Thomas Anderson film is "cinema" (which is funny because I think PT Anderson movies are the most pretentious bunch of celluloid I've ever seen). Now Scorsese also admitted he doesn't watch Marvel movies. Let's also be clear that what Scorsese was actually referring to was ALL FRANCHISE CINEMA, and his problem with them is that they drive out smaller films from the multiplexes, like his The Irishman movie. And he's probably right to a degree. But television and streaming is also a huge way the modern world consumes cinema. It's not like the old days and I'm not sure Mr. Scorsese understands how big streaming TV is these days to modern audiences. He's a cinema purist and wants his films in the theater. Understandable. So when one says, "I agree with Scorsese, the MCU sucks!", that person is misunderstanding Scorsese's message, with good reason, because he is quoted as saying "Marvel films aren't cinema." But again, he meant all these franchise movies, including Wonder Woman, Godzilla, and whatever. I assume Star Wars can be lumped in with that, too.

Still, for me, the whole debacle was akin to parents and teachers back in the day calling our comic books garbage. Well, maybe they were right. Maybe comic books are garbage. They're very valuable garbage right now, though.

[@therealsilvermane]

13 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

Go ahead, have your laughs. But I'm right. Winter Soldier, Civil War, and Infinity War were chock full of plot holes and logic holes.

In Winter Soldier, why doesn't Robert Redford just take out Nick Fury while he's on the elevator at SHIELD HQ? Why does he have to wait until he's in his bullet proof weaponized SUV to attack him? Not so smart.

Civil War would have been a short film if Vision or Stark had just disabled the Quinjet at the airport. Maybe there wouldn't be millions of dollars of damage there, like a demolished 747 jet, also. I thought Vision and Stark were the smartest guys in the room.

In Infinity War, where the heck was Thor when Captain America told everyone to assemble at Vision's location in the Wakanda battle? There might have been a second victorious outcome for our heroes had Thor been part of that group fending off Thanos from Vision. Where was Thor?!?

With Endgame, I had none of these issues while watching the movie. Hardly any logic holes at all. And it was a time travel movie.

[▫️]

2 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Well you don't have to really choose a side in this case. Scorsese just answered the question when someone asked what he thought of Marvel movies while on his The Irishman press tour. He said Marvel films aren't "cinema" the way a Paul Thomas Anderson film is "cinema" (which is funny because I think PT Anderson movies are the most pretentious bunch of celluloid I've ever seen). Now Scorsese also admitted he doesn't watch Marvel movies. Let's also be clear that what Scorsese was actually referring to was ALL FRANCHISE CINEMA, and his problem with them is that they drive out smaller films from the multiplexes, like his The Irishman movie. And he's probably right to a degree. But television and streaming is also a huge way the modern world consumes cinema. It's not like the old days and I'm not sure Mr. Scorsese understands how big streaming TV is these days to modern audiences. He's a cinema purist and wants his films in the theater. Understandable. So when one says, "I agree with Scorsese, the MCU sucks!", that person is misunderstanding Scorsese's message, with good reason, because he is quoted as saying "Marvel films aren't cinema." But again, he meant all these franchise movies, including Wonder Woman, Godzilla, and whatever. I assume Star Wars can be lumped in with that, too.

Still, for me, the whole debacle was akin to parents and teachers back in the day calling our comic books garbage. Well, maybe they were right. Maybe comic books are garbage. They're very valuable garbage right now, though.

I agree with all your points. I even agree that PT Anderson’s films can be pretentious but I still enjoy them. Especially Punch Drunk Love. Scorsese is old school and while I don’t agree with him judging movies he may not have seen, I agree that men/women in tights flicks are not truly cinema. They are popcorn flicks, some with more depth than others. Marvel, DC, Transformers, Fast and Furious etc. But the definition of cinema is broadening so who knows what these will be considered in a few decades. I don’t really care, I love watching Goodfellas over and over as much as The Dark Knight and Winter Soldier. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

11 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Go ahead, have your laughs. But I'm right. Winter Soldier, Civil War, and Infinity War were chock full of plot holes and logic holes.

In Winter Soldier, why doesn't Robert Redford just take out Nick Fury while he's on the elevator at SHIELD HQ? Why does he have to wait until he's in his bullet proof weaponized SUV to attack him? Not so smart.

Civil War would have been a short film if Vision or Stark had just disabled the Quinjet at the airport. Maybe there wouldn't be millions of dollars of damage there, like a demolished 747 jet, also. I thought Vision and Stark were the smartest guys in the room.

In Infinity War, where the heck was Thor when Captain America told everyone to assemble at Vision's location in the Wakanda battle? There might have been a second victorious outcome for our heroes had Thor been part of that group fending off Thanos from Vision. Where was Thor?!?

With Endgame, I had none of these issues while watching the movie. Hardly any logic holes at all. And it was a time travel movie.

Do you know how HYDRA operates...? I thought that you were an MCU 'expert'...?

You're right about Civil War. I'll give you that. It was a very flawed film, albeit pretty fun.

Thor was busy destroying all of the Outriders... A task that none of the other Avengers could accomplish. That's not a plot hole.

Endgame is very flawed, to the point that the writers and directors aren't even on the same page! Did you love that rat stepping on the right buttons in the right sequence to free Ant-Man from the QR?

[Bosco685]

3 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

With Endgame, I had none of these issues while watching the movie. Hardly any logic holes at all. And it was a time travel movie.

It is nice to see you appreciate the movie so much. Nothing wrong with that. But your conviction is to the point you will detract from any other MCU film to prove your point. To the point it detracts from your message. Kind of like Gatsy inserting the 'DC vs MCU' distractor when he isn't winning out with anything close to a valid point.

Endgame's Writers & Directors Don't Agree How Time Travel Works

Even with the use of time travel, the creators of the film couldn't keep their stories straight what the foundational approach was to the topic (and results). That's very revealing when in the end they are not aligned. Meanwhile, you had none of that coming up regularly in articles with the creators of Captain America: The Winter Soldier having to over-explain and clarify details.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Bosco685

[drotto]

2 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

 

With Endgame, I had none of these issues while watching the movie. Hardly any logic holes at all. And it was a time travel movie.

Really, no plot holes?  Did we watch the same movie?  Don't get me wrong I liked the movie a lot, but on repeat viewings there are many things that do not hold up at all. Granted, Endgame is not one of my favorite MCU films, it is around 8 or 9.

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 hour ago, drotto said:

Really, no plot holes?  Did we watch the same movie?  Don't get me wrong I liked the movie a lot, but on repeat viewings there are many things that do not hold up at all. Granted, Endgame is not one of my favorite MCU films, it is around 8 or 9.

Yeah, Endgame was an event that ties up so many stories that it helps you overlook some of its flaws. It has some very important flaws, though. It's high-tier entertainment but low-tier storytelling.

[D84]

22 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

Yeah, Endgame was an event that ties up so many stories that it helps you overlook some of its flaws. It has some very important flaws, though. It's high-tier entertainment but low-tier storytelling.

I didn't find it entertaining because of the poor writing. It was bloated, self indulgent and made little sense.

[@therealsilvermane]

4 hours ago, Angel of Death said:

Thor was busy destroying all of the Outriders... A task that none of the other Avengers could accomplish. That's not a plot hole.

Endgame is very flawed, to the point that the writers and directors aren't even on the same page! Did you love that rat stepping on the right buttons in the right sequence to free Ant-Man from the QR?

That's what I keep telling myself when I watch Infinity War, that Thor was busy with the Outriders and stuff. It helps a little, but Thor's mission was to kill Thanos and Thanos was right there...for like 10 minutes dealing with the mighty Captain America and Falcon when Thor could have lopped his head off and ended it before he got Vision's Mind Stone...but yes, Thor was too busy with those Outriders and stuff...priorities...

A rat accidentally pressing the ON button to free Scott Lang in Endgame isn't a plot hole or logic hole. You might disagree with that creative story choice, but it's possible. Endgame might have had lots of story and creative choices that people didn't like, but at no time was I thinking "why would they do that when they should be doing this?" All the character choices and actions made sense to me.

 

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, @therealsilvermane said:

That's what I keep telling myself when I watch Infinity War, that Thor was busy with the Outriders and stuff. It helps a little, but Thor's mission was to kill Thanos and Thanos was right there...for like 10 minutes dealing with the mighty Captain America and Falcon when Thor could have lopped his head off and ended it before he got Vision's Mind Stone...but yes, Thor was too busy with those Outriders and stuff...priorities...

A rat accidentally pressing the ON button to free Scott Lang in Endgame isn't a plot hole or logic hole. You might disagree with that creative story choice, but it's possible. Endgame might have had lots of story and creative choices that people didn't like, but at no time was I thinking "why would they do that when they should be doing this?" All the character choices and actions made sense to me.

Thanos was in Wakanda for, like, 1 minute before Thor got there. Thor intentionally didn't go for the head. Did you forget that...?

A rat pressing the right buttons inside of a vehicle is absolutely a plot device ("logic hole"). It's not possible. Nebula not using her device to return, instead of (or after) warning Romanoff and Barton, isn't a plot hole...?

[drotto]

21 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

Thanos was in Wakanda for, like, 1 minute before Thor got there. Thor intentionally didn't go for the head. Did you forget that...?

A rat pressing the right buttons inside of a vehicle is absolutely a plot device ("logic hole"). It's not possible. Nebula not using her device to return, instead of (or after) warning Romanoff and Barton, isn't a plot hole...?

Maybe we should ignor Captian Marvel stumbling across Tony's dead ship drifting in space with no explanation it is a bit convenient.  The odds of that happening are mind boggling.

 

Or wait Steve going back in time. Managing to not screw up the timeline, and just deciding to lay low and give up being a hero and lead a quiet life.

 

I could go on.

Edited March 25, 2021 by drotto

[theCapraAegagrus]

4 minutes ago, drotto said:

Or wait Steve going back in time. Managing to not screw up the timeline, and just deciding to lay low and give up being a hero and lead a quiet life.

This is where the Russo Bros don't make any sense. The writers say that Steve created an alternate timeline, which makes sense, considering all of the dialogue in the movie. The Russo Bros say that there were 2 of him since the 1940's? Lol, no, sorry.

[@therealsilvermane]

33 minutes ago, drotto said:

Maybe we should ignor Captian Marvel stumbling across Tony's dead ship drifting in space with no explanation it is a bit convenient.  The odds of that happening are mind boggling.

 

Or wait Steve going back in time. Managing to not screw up the timeline, and just deciding to lay low and give up being a hero and lead a quiet life.

 

I could go on.

None of those are plot holes. It’s totally possible for Captain Marvel to have honed in on the signals Stark and Nebula sent from the Benatar. Rogers may have created a new timeline by remaining in the past but that doesn’t affect the story of Endgame.

[@therealsilvermane]

37 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

This is where the Russo Bros don't make any sense. The writers say that Steve created an alternate timeline, which makes sense, considering all of the dialogue in the movie. The Russo Bros say that there were 2 of him since the 1940's? Lol, no, sorry.

We already did see two Caps in Endgame. They fought each other.

[theCapraAegagrus]

5 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

We already did see two Caps in Endgame. They fought each other.

In a branch reality that was clipped, so that excuse doesn't work.

[@therealsilvermane]

14 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

In a branch reality that was clipped, so that excuse doesn't work.

Maybe the filmmakers have different theories of the ultimate consequences of time travel in the MCU, but it’s still not an issue that affects the story of Endgame or create a plot hole.