Incredible Hulk #181 - is it *that* red-hot? 17 17

[MattTheDuck]

This is not a productive area of discussion.

 

[BabyAteMyDingo]

On 10/4/2021 at 8:24 PM, comicdonna said:

I think he meant 5K

Thanks, comicdonna. I did indeed mean 5k.

[MGsimba77]

On 10/4/2021 at 11:27 PM, lou_fine said:

Are you talking about a million U.S. Lincoln pennies because I certainly hope you are not talking about a million U.S. Washington greenbacks?  

You do realize that the CGC 9.9 copy was graded way back in their first year of operations when grading standards were much more in line with traditional grading standards prior to CGC and hence most likely not yet been fine-tuned to line up with CCG's business model.  As others have already stated here, it is highly doubtful this CGC 9.9 graded copy would come back with the same grade if ever resubmitted with today's grading standards focused so much on fixable bends and pressable NCB's.  Even more so, if the rumours are indeed true and there is now clearly visible SCS damage on the book to the point that it might even fall below the 9.0 condition level if ever regraded, I highly doubt it would be able to fetch its original 6-figure purchase price, let alone a million dollars.  

Okay but is it really the case that standards were consistently more lenient in 99, 2000? I thought it was more on the side of erratic or if anything more strict. I don't know that we can definitively say everything was over graded in those years? Why is it that books in the original slabs are a selling point and not a drawback? 

This book has been scrutinized more than any other certified book a million times over -- so not surprising people question it. I guess if we scrutinized to death some big SA keys from the early days we could find something here & there. But anyway yeah if it was somehow damaged post certification then sure all bets are off but do we know that? I mean something we haven't seen from the available scan. Where are those rumors coming from?

Absent unforeseen damage I see it as a moot point in a potential auction. Who's going to crack it out to regrade anyway? They wanna shoot for a 10? Again, if it looks the same as the scans yeah it threatens a mill in the right venue. Especially after it turns 50 in a few years. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

This is the only pic I’ve seen of it 

[comicdonna]

On 10/5/2021 at 9:11 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

This is the only pic I’ve seen of it 

It looks like the book shifted, causing damage to the upper right and lower left corners.  

[BabyAteMyDingo]

9.9? Not anymore. If ever.

[Homeboy32]

On 10/5/2021 at 9:24 PM, BabyAteMyDingo said:

9.9? Not anymore. If ever.

not to mention the white line under the word "Canadian"

[WolverineX]

On 10/4/2021 at 5:13 PM, BabyAteMyDingo said:

Same here. I suggested we buy one in 2018 to my wife. I have no sentimental attachment to the Wolverine character whatsoever. So, it would have been exceedingly easy to sell it at a hefty profit one day and get a GOOD book. Got the usual barrage of disbelief and fear responses. Roughly $500 for a 9.0.

Just yesterday, I commented the same book is around $15k now. Instead of recognizing her error, she suggested that "if I had really wanted it and it was SUCH a good investment, I should have sold off some other books to finance an Incredible Hulk 181". Problem with that is the books I have I want to keep. It is why I bought them. Ho-Hum. Another argument I lose.

Sounds like a gem

[BabyAteMyDingo]

On 10/5/2021 at 9:49 PM, Homeboy32 said:

not to mention the white line under the word "Canadian"

Right. There's a scuff underneath the chain link near wolfie's (His right our left) right arm as well. Grading is a dubious undertaking. We read comments about how "some graders are more hard hitting than others" etc. That isn't the way it's supposed to go. There is criteria that's supposed to be followed. Graders aren't supposed to be like McCloud. A bunch of lone wolves who don't play by the rules.

Even in the SS area, I have read comments where the supposed witness hands an artist a stack og books to sign at a con or signing, then tips out to go get a coffee or look around to come back and check in with the signer in 20-30 minutes to pick up the books. Is that witnessing signatures? I don't think so.

Maybe it happens like that, maybe it doesn't. But the processes used by grading companies are dubious enough where I prefer retaining some say in what the grades of some of my raw books are. I need to be well read enough to be able to apply grades to my own hobby to a degree.

[BabyAteMyDingo]

On 10/5/2021 at 10:51 PM, Wolverinex said:

Sounds like a gem

She is. Just a perspective from someone who is looking out for my own welfare, too. She knows I tend to keep the books I get, making value or "investment" beside the point. If I were smarter, I would collect things that are valuable that I hate. Could buy and sell all day with impunity.

I'm lucky to have a wife who looks out for me. Not everyone does. I get carried away with the collectibles I love. They are more valuable than lousy money to me. She knows it about me.

[WolverineX]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:04 PM, BabyAteMyDingo said:

She is. Just a perspective from someone who is looking out for my own welfare, too. She knows I tend to keep the books I get, making value or "investment" beside the point. If I were smarter, I would collect things that are valuable that I hate. Could buy and sell all day with impunity.

I'm lucky to have a wife who looks out for me. Not everyone does. I get carried away with the collectibles I love. They are more valuable than lousy money to me. She knows it about me.

Awesome  ,That's good to hear.  

[grendelbo]

On 10/5/2021 at 7:49 PM, Homeboy32 said:

not to mention the white line under the word "Canadian"

My copy, though mid-grade, has an identical defect - placement, length and severity. I wonder if it's an uncommon production flaw on some copies.  🤔

Edited October 9, 2021 by grendelbo

[BabyAteMyDingo]

On 10/6/2021 at 3:09 PM, grendelbo said:

My copy, though mid-grade, has an identical defect - placement, length and severity. I wonder if it's an uncommon production flaw on some copies.  🤔

That is a good point. A likely production error. There is an example of that in Batman #234. A scrape on Batman's shoulder of varying severity. It starts as a white dot on many copies, then ends as a scrape shown here. There is ONE copy on EBay that shows Batman's shoulder complete without even the white dot! That is probably very rare as I have seen almost all copies have the white dot and varying degrees of the "scrape".

white color

Edited October 7, 2021 by BabyAteMyDingo

[lou_fine]

On 10/4/2021 at 8:27 PM, lou_fine said:

You do realize that the CGC 9.9 copy was graded way back in their first year of operations when grading standards were much more in line with traditional grading standards prior to CGC and hence most likely not yet been fine-tuned to line up with CCG's business model.  As others have already stated here, it is highly doubtful this CGC 9.9 graded copy would come back with the same grade if ever resubmitted with today's grading standards focused so much on fixable bends and pressable NCB's. 

 

On 10/5/2021 at 6:03 PM, MGsimba77 said:

Okay but is it really the case that standards were consistently more lenient in 99, 2000? I thought it was more on the side of erratic or if anything more strict. I don't know that we can definitively say everything was over graded in those years? Why is it that books in the original slabs are a selling point and not a drawback? 

It should be pointed out that nowhere in my post did I say that the standards were more lenient or softer back when CGC first started up in 2000.  What I am saying is that their undisclosed standards have shifted or shall we say "devolved" over the years, and in my own personal POV, not necessarily in a good way.  Clearly, their focus has shifted more towards money and tweaking their undisclosed grading standards to facilitate making money on the exact same book multiple times through various forms of resubmissions (i.e. CPR, resto removal, resto definition changes, new pedigrees and new labels, reholders, etc.) as opposed to be just being one and done.    

As copied from a post which I had made in another thread here on the GA boards earlier this morning:

On 10/9/2021 at 10:50 AM, lou_fine said:

Looks like you are clearly dating yourself here as I believe your definition of grading here is much more in line with what it was prior to CGC.  

Not that I disagree with it since I am also an old long time collector from the days of yore prior to CGC coming into place.  I actually prefer it much more so than having a grading company decide that near invisible tiny NCB ticks and bends that can only be seen by holding the book up at a certain angle to the light should be moved to the top of their grading defect hit chart, while clearly visible pressing defects such as impacted or indented staples and the likes are now pretty much treated like production defects and to be discounted or minimized for grading purposes.  Of course, we all know the reason for this and it only makes business sense not to have your undisclosed grading standards impede the insatiable hunger of your mother Corp.  

I remember sending in about a dozen GA books to be graded back when CGC first opened their doors as a sample test of their grading system and also just in time for the big Greg Manning Auction.  The books looked nice and clearly they were graded much more in line with the traditional grading standards that were already in place prior to CGC as they all came in between CGC 9.2 and CGC 9.6.  My bet is that if those exact same books were sent in today without any "maximizatioin of potential" being perfomed on them, and with Heritage arriving on the scene in 2002 and CGC's ever increasing focus on additional revenue generating defects, they would probably come back anywhere from grades ranging from CGC 8.0 through to CGC 9.2, if I am lucky.  Especially since the "pancaked look", even those with the CCS generated visible defects, appears to be new visual repsentation of what a HG book should look like in today's grading environment.     

BTW:  If given the choice, I would definitely prefer graded books with original labels over the ones with the more recent labels due to the simple fact that there was clearly a lot less manipulation of the books back then, whereas it's pretty much almost a necessaity for the submittor to at least do a pre-screen for pressing at a minumum in order to avoid their books getting hammered upon grading.    

[lou_fine]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:09 PM, grendelbo said:

On 10/5/2021 at 6:49 PM, Homeboy32 said:

not to mention the white line under the word "Canadian"

My copy, though mid-grade, has an identical defect - placement, length and severity. I wonder if it's an uncommonproduction flaw on some copies.  🤔

That's a definite production flaw as I noticed the exact same flaw in the exact same place, albeit it a tiny bit larger on my HG copy of Hulk 181. 

What's clearly more annoying though is the tiny crease which I noticed at the bottom right corner of the book upon closer inspection which I don't remember seeing before and one which is clearly NOT production related.  Although everything else looks good to go, it still kind of  me off now since I clearly must have over paid for the book at the time then.    

[MGsimba77]

Man these Ebay auctions are absolutely brutal if you're on the selling side! YIKES 😱 🥶! Anyone out there hunting for a bargain?...throw in a bid on Ebay. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by MGsimba77

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 5/25/2022 at 12:37 PM, MGsimba77 said:

Man these Ebay auctions are absolutely brutal if you're on the selling side! YIKES 😱 🥶! Anyone out there hunting for a bargain?...throw in a bid on Ebay. 

Link?

[MGsimba77]

On 5/25/2022 at 2:14 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

Link?

More of a general observation but had this one in mind. There's no way that copy should be anywhere under 30k at the least. Even including the tax hit it's still low.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 5/25/2022 at 2:34 PM, MGsimba77 said:

More of a general observation but had this one in mind. There's no way that copy should be anywhere under 30k at the least. Even including the tax hit it's still low.

I’d be concerned that the book has impacted the walls of the inner well and suffered some minor SCS along the top and bottom edges. Maybe an illusion, but it looks a little suspect....

 

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 5/25/2022 at 2:34 PM, MGsimba77 said:

More of a general observation but had this one in mind. There's no way that copy should be anywhere under 30k at the least. Even including the tax hit it's still low.

Thanks.  That is a low price ... I guess Wolverine is a little bit off the radar for now, but I'm sure the day will come soon when everyone will go nuts again.

I'm in the market for #180 in 9.6 WP so I hope it tanks until I get a copy!