Disney+'s HAWKEYE (TBD) 5 5

[Aman619]

On 11/27/2021 at 5:17 PM, drotto said:

Honestly from a story telling standpoint that is way too early.  A 20 year old with no formal training takes on the mantel of Hawkeye when he met her 1 day ago.  

That’s what I thought.  Seeing her as a young woman but 5 minutes later a full on street smart ninja fighter felt wha?   If this were a comic though it would be believable  though. We’ve read these stories all our lives!

as film though, she comes across as innocent   In s comic it’s easier to accept secret super human skills from a character you just met a few pages ago 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Aman619

[Capn17]

Enjoyed both episodes.

Happy to see:

• Pizza dog
• Tracksuit gang, bro

There is always the question of damage done to a female in a fight. Was nice to see facial damage done to Kate, but I am sure there would be a lot of damage to the body from the body blows. It is based on a comic book, so we do take allow it.

They did slide in there that she was a 2-time fencing champion, has taken lots of archery training and competed, and also has martial arts training. So it seems like she has been working hard on all aspects to be like Hawkeye.

Liking what I've seen so far. Looking forward to the rest. Still like Loki and FAWS more so.

[fantastic_four]

On 11/28/2021 at 8:44 PM, Capn17 said:

There is always the question of damage done to a female in a fight. Was nice to see facial damage done to Kate, but I am sure there would be a lot of damage to the body from the body blows. It is based on a comic book, so we do take allow it.

I was wondering that too.  Every time she got punched or kneed in the stomach or ribs I expected more recovery time or for her to just be disabled for a while, but as you say it's superhero fiction, so whatever.  

Generally enjoying the show.  Seems about as good as Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

[drotto]

On 11/29/2021 at 8:54 AM, fantastic_four said:

I was wondering that too.  Every time she got punched or kneed in the stomach or ribs I expected more recovery time or for her to just be disabled for a while, but as you say it's superhero fiction, so whatever.  

Generally enjoying the show.  Seems about as good as Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

There is always a suspension of disbelief when a 120 female is able to beat five 250 lbs guys, solo with only a few scratches.

[fantastic_four]

On 11/29/2021 at 9:53 AM, drotto said:

There is always a suspension of disbelief when a 120 female is able to beat five 250 lbs guys, solo with only a few scratches.

They handled that with Black Widow by having her be so skilled and agile that she never got hit that I can recall--certainly not as much as Kate has been hit so far in this series.  But Kate's still a noob, so they're showing her get hit.

[drotto]

On 11/29/2021 at 9:55 AM, fantastic_four said:

They handled that with Black Widow by having her be so skilled and agile that she never got hit that I can recall--certainly not as much as Kate has been hit so far in this series.  But Kate's still a noob, so they're showing her get hit.

In the real world Kate would be a beaten to within an inch of her life.

[Bosco685]

[fantastic_four]

Anybody a fan of this Echo character they showed at the end of episode 2?  I'm unfamiliar with her, but apparently she first appeared in Daredevil in 1999:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_(Marvel_Comics)

She's got some white mark on her face you could vaguely see in the episode.  Or at least I thought I saw it from one angle, but it wasn't clear enough to be sure I saw it and when you do an image search on her in the show I don't see the mark clearly in most of the pictures I find.  I thought I had seen something white on her face before I even knew who she was and before I knew she was supposed to have any kind of mark; I was just wondering what the white stuff on her face was when they first showed her.

And apparently there's another Disney Plus show featuring her currently in development.

Edited November 29, 2021 by fantastic_four

[Bosco685]

On 11/29/2021 at 11:48 AM, fantastic_four said:

Anybody a fan of this Echo character they showed at the end of episode 2?  I'm unfamiliar with her, but apparently she first appeared in Daredevil in 1999:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_(Marvel_Comics)

She's got some white mark on her face you could vaguely see in the episode.  Or at least I thought I saw it from one angle, but it wasn't clear enough to be sure I saw it and when you do an image search on her in the show I don't see the mark clearly in most of the pictures I find.  I thought I had seen something white on her face before I even knew who she was and before I knew she was supposed to have any kind of mark; I was just wondering what the white stuff on her face was when they first showed her.

And apparently there's another Disney Plus show featuring her currently in development.

There is

 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/27/2021 at 5:17 PM, drotto said:

Honestly from a story telling standpoint that is way too early.  A 20 year old with no formal training takes on the mantel of Hawkeye when he met her 1 day ago.  

Episode One's opening credits is part of the storytelling of Kate's superhero bio. When young Kate asks her mother for a bow and arrow at her father's funeral, the episode cuts to the opening credits where it shows her in cartoon cutout sequences FORMALLY training in martial arts, gymnastics, fencing, and yes, archery. She even competes collegiately which means she is good. The fact that young Kate also seems spurred to train because of her father's death and being inspired by Hawkeye to protect what's left of her family (as opposed to doing it just to be an athlete), that kind of makes her something like a female Bruce Wayne. Savvy? 

[drotto]

On 11/29/2021 at 4:17 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Episode One's opening credits is part of the storytelling of Kate's superhero bio. When young Kate asks her mother for a bow and arrow at her father's funeral, the episode cuts to the opening credits where it shows her in cartoon cutout sequences FORMALLY training in martial arts, gymnastics, fencing, and yes, archery. She even competes collegiately which means she is good. The fact that young Kate also seems spurred to train because of her father's death and being inspired by Hawkeye to protect what's left of her family (as opposed to doing it just to be an athlete), that kind of makes her something like a female Bruce Wayne. Savvy? 

Doing it a a credit montage is lazy story telling.  To take the mantel from an Avenger who saved the world multiple times,  needs to be shown earning that title in a meaningful way. I have this criticism of comics also, people earn things to easily, too fast, at too young an age all the time. I like seeing more of a journey.   Your example of Bruce Wayne is not equivalent.  It has been established that he trained for years as an adult before he started as Batman.

 

Also, I do not care how fantastic you are trained or how good you are.  It is exceedingly unlike one individual (even one exceedingly will trained), can beat multiple other people who are reasonably skilled. Especially,  when they are twice as big, and twice as strong. It is also falling back on the idea of yet another new character that is the best at everything. I am just getting very tired of that type of storytelling. 

[Bosco685]

On 11/29/2021 at 4:43 PM, drotto said:

Doing it a a credit montage is lazy story telling.  To take the mantel from an Avenger who saved the world multiple times,  needs to be shown earning that title in a meaningful way. I have this criticism of comics also, people earn things to easily, too fast, at too young an age all the time. I like seeing more of a journey.   Your example of Bruce Wayne is not equivalent.  It has been established that he trained for years as an adult before he started as Batman.

 

Also, I do not care how fantastic you are trained or how good you are.  It is exceedingly unlike one individual (even one exceedingly will trained), can beat multiple other people who are reasonably skilled. Especially,  when they are twice as big, and twice as strong. It is also falling back on the idea of yet another new character that is the best at everything. I am just getting very tired of that type of storytelling. 

You forgot...

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/29/2021 at 4:43 PM, drotto said:

Doing it a a credit montage is lazy story telling.  To take the mantel from an Avenger who saved the world multiple times,  needs to be shown earning that title in a meaningful way. I have this criticism of comics also, people earn things to easily, too fast, at too young an age all the time. I like seeing more of a journey.   Your example of Bruce Wayne is not equivalent.  It has been established that he trained for years as an adult before he started as Batman.

Also, I do not care how fantastic you are trained or how good you are.  It is exceedingly unlike one individual (even one exceedingly will trained), can beat multiple other people who are reasonably skilled. Especially,  when they are twice as big, and twice as strong. It is also falling back on the idea of yet another new character that is the best at everything. I am just getting very tired of that type of storytelling. 

IMO, the opening credits sequence totally was not lazy storytelling. I thought it was actually a well done, well animated opening credit sequence with music that matched the sequence's emotional beats. IMO, what was more important to show was what inspired Kate Bishop to want to be a super-hero, an Avengers-level threat that blew a hole in her family's brownstone New York apartment and which her father wouldn't survive. And the fact that Episode One's opening scene was a normal person's front row point-of-view of the Battle of New York was all the more powerful. I don't think we really needed to see a montage of live action shots of a little girl getting a bow as a gift and her training in the aforementioned disciplines. We've all seen that montage. Put it in a nice opening credits scene, the type normally saved for a MCU's end credits sequence, and let's get on to the meat of the story, Hawkeye meeting Hawkeye. This will be her true journey to becoming a hero worthy of the Avengers (or whatever team she ends up with). Anybody can learn to shoot a bow or practice martial arts.

I think her situation is totally equivalent to Bruce Wayne to a point. She's a rich young city girl who saw one of her parents get taken down by an Avengers level threat, inspiring her to learn skills that would make her a protector. Sounds like somebody we know. She's just not so psycho about it all. 

Is Robin a better equivalent?

As for how unbelievable it is that Kate could take on the Tracksuit Mafia hand-to-hand successfully, let's examine that.

First, considering that she's been intently training in martial arts, gymnastics, and weapons arts for more than 10 years, is a black belt in those arts and has won numerous medals in gymnastics, the wine cellar fight sequence of Episode One is totally believable, assuming that the goons she is taking on are not world class martial artists themselves. Kate's moves are basic yet effective martial arts moves and she wields two wine bottles the way one might wield two billy clubs, which would have been effective in giving her an upper hand and shows how clever she is and a step ahead of commonplace criminals. But even how well she does against the Tracksuit goons, it wasn't completely smooth as one goon in particular tossed her around like the underweight fighter she is. I don't think the wine cellar sequence showed Kate as being unbelievably overpowered at all. It showed a person who'd been training for this fight for over ten years finally having a chance to use those skills in a real world case against a couple of commonplace goons who Clint Barton could take out with his pinkie. There are bigger challenges ahead for Kate Bishop in this show.

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[paperheart]

too much turkey?

 

The first episode of Marvel’s Hawkeye on Disney+ drew 1.5M U.S. households over the Wednesday-Sunday holiday stretch, while 1.3M stuck around and watched the second episode.

 

This is according to the latest streaming viewership stats from Samba TV which measures 3M U.S. households, and what they watch on streaming over a five-minute increment. That first episode number for Hawkeye trails the 5-day U.S. household viewership figure for Disney+/Marvel’s Loki which was watched by 2.5M homes over June 9-13 by -40%. Hawkeye‘s first episode premiere also ranks behind Loki‘s finale which pulled in 1.9M homes over five days per Samba TV. Hawkeye‘s 5-day is also behind the 3-day premieres of Disney+/Marvel’s Falcon and the Winter Solider (1.8M) and WandaVision (1.6M).

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/29/2021 at 6:23 PM, paperheart said:

too much turkey?

 

The first episode of Marvel’s Hawkeye on Disney+ drew 1.5M U.S. households over the Wednesday-Sunday holiday stretch, while 1.3M stuck around and watched the second episode.

 

This is according to the latest streaming viewership stats from Samba TV which measures 3M U.S. households, and what they watch on streaming over a five-minute increment. That first episode number for Hawkeye trails the 5-day U.S. household viewership figure for Disney+/Marvel’s Loki which was watched by 2.5M homes over June 9-13 by -40%. Hawkeye‘s first episode premiere also ranks behind Loki‘s finale which pulled in 1.9M homes over five days per Samba TV. Hawkeye‘s 5-day is also behind the 3-day premieres of Disney+/Marvel’s Falcon and the Winter Solider (1.8M) and WandaVision (1.6M).

Hawkeye obviously has a problem with branding.

[drotto]

On 11/29/2021 at 5:58 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

IMO, the opening credits sequence totally was not lazy storytelling. I thought it was actually a well done, well animated opening credit sequence with music that matched the sequence's emotional beats. IMO, what was more important to show was what inspired Kate Bishop to want to be a super-hero, an Avengers-level threat that blew a hole in her family's brownstone New York apartment and which her father wouldn't survive. And the fact that Episode One's opening scene was a normal person's front row point-of-view of the Battle of New York was all the more powerful. I don't think we really needed to see a montage of live action shots of a little girl getting a bow as a gift and her training in the aforementioned disciplines. We've all seen that montage. Put it in a nice opening credits scene, the type normally saved for a MCU's end credits sequence, and let's get on to the meat of the story, Hawkeye meeting Hawkeye. This will be her true journey to becoming a hero worthy of the Avengers (or whatever team she ends up with). Anybody can learn to shoot a bow or practice martial arts.

I think her situation is totally equivalent to Bruce Wayne to a point. She's a rich young city girl who saw one of her parents get taken down by an Avengers level threat, inspiring her to learn skills that would make her a protector. Sounds like somebody we know. She's just not so psycho about it all.

As for how unbelievable it is that Kate could take on the Tracksuit Mafia hand-to-hand successfully, let's examine that.

First, considering that she's been intently training in martial arts, gymnastics, and weapons arts for more than 10 years, is a black belt in those arts and has won numerous medals in gymnastics, the wine cellar fight sequence of Episode One is totally believable, assuming that the goons she is taking on are not world class martial artists themselves. Kate's moves are basic yet effective martial arts moves and she wields two wine bottles the way one might wield two billy clubs, which would have been effective in giving her an upper hand and shows how clever she is and a step ahead of commonplace criminals. But even how well she does against the Tracksuit goons, it wasn't completely smooth as one goon in particular tossed her around like the underweight fighter she is. I don't think the wine cellar sequence showed Kate as being unbelievably overpowered at all. It showed a person who'd been training for this fight for over ten years finally having a chance to use those skills in a real world case against a couple of commonplace goons who Clint Barton could take out with his pinkie. There are bigger challenges ahead for Kate Bishop in this show.

 

Yawn.  Wall of text justifying the writer creating yet another perfect character that can not be beat.  I am not talking about montages of training.  I am talking about actually earning the title and working their way up. Hawkeye, or really any hero is not just going to give their title to somebody they have know for a few weeks?  They are about to do the same story again with Riri Williams, and again with Ms Marvel. It is lazy story telling.

Have you every known somebody that has trained in martial arts for real?  Have you every watched things like boxing or UFC?  There is a reason there are weight classes and different divisions for male and female. Because, in the real world when people are so physically mismatched, regardless of the training, they can not compete. In the real world it is highly unlikely Clint would win in this scenario either to be honest.

[drotto]

On 11/29/2021 at 6:25 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Hawkeye obviously has a problem with branding.

Or people are already tiring of the D+ shows, or the characters being used, or the stories they are telling. Put this together with Eternals, BW, and to a lessor extent Shang-Chi, and either there is real superhero fatigue setting in, or many people are not happy with where the MCU is heading. 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/29/2021 at 6:28 PM, drotto said:

Yawn.  Wall of text justifying the writer creating yet another perfect character that can not be beat.  I am not talking about montages of training.  I am talking about actually earning the title and working their way up. Hawkeye, or really any hero is not just going to give their title to somebody they have know for a few weeks?  They are about to do the same story again with Riri Williams, and again with Ms Marvel. It is lazy story telling.

Have you every known somebody that has trained in martial arts for real?  Have you every watched things like boxing or UFC?  There is a reason there are weight classes and different divisions for male and female. Because, in the real world when people are so physically mismatched, regardless of the training, they can not compete. In the real world it is highly unlikely Clint would win in this scenario either to be honest.

I've trained in martial arts for quite a while. Aikido in particular. A large part of the way Aikido works is it allows the practitioner to use an opponent's energy or weight against them. Many martial arts use that way. It allows someone of lesser weight to take out a person much bigger than themselves. The UFC is cage fighting, not real world fighting. In the UFC, you can't throat punch an opponent or kick them in the gonads or use wine bottles against them. 

As for Kate earning something, she has not earned anything in the show yet. She is not yet an Avenger or a super-hero, she just wants to be.

I'm not really justifying anything. I'm trying to point out to you what's in the show. It's all there. The show is well done. If there's a knock on anything, IMO, it's that I'm a little unclear of Kate's motivation in the present day. She wanted to be a protector, so did she lose focus along the way and that's why she was doing the bell tower prank? What was she waiting for to use her skills responsibly? Was she waiting for Clint Barton to come along or is this business with her mother the first time she's experienced adversity that threatens her family, thus prompting her to awaken? I'm assuming it's the latter.

[piper]

I liked the first episode. On to No. 2 tomorrow…

[Bosco685]

On 11/29/2021 at 6:31 PM, drotto said:

Or people are already tiring of the D+ shows, or the characters being used, or the stories they are telling. Put this together with Eternals, BW, and to a lessor extent Shang-Chi, and either there is real superhero fatigue setting in, or many people are not happy with where the MCU is heading. 

I agree with the movies and D+ shows. But in this case with Hawkeye I went into it expecting more of the same and was surprised it was different. And maybe so far that's what I needed: changing up from the constant world-building model.

In this case, Cliff Barton is a worn down, injured and PTSD-impacted hero that is just going through the motions in life. Except for when interacting with his kids. Everything else, he is just checked out on life. But then Kate Bishop comes along,  and she gives him new purpose.

Not saying the show will stay that good throughout. But so far, the two episodes give me some small hope. Though again there are only 6 episodes total. So we have seen 33% of the story already.