When will the other shoe drop with CGC and the 'crack, press, and resub' game? 3 3

[kav]

If Chuck is not aware of these comments then it's not aware bullying.  @Buzzetta

[Prince Namor]

28 minutes ago, DavidTheDavid said:

I'm not sure what about my post made me seem upset. I said that you undermine your own point when you resort to name calling.

His appeal after Sandy may be repugnant to many. It's not bullying. There are plenty of resources online if you're interested in learning what that means.

Yeah ok. 

I don’t have the clinical expertise to deal with this. Thank goodness for the ignore function.

[DavidTheDavid]

7 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Yeah ok. 

I don’t have the clinical expertise to deal with this. Thank goodness for the ignore function.

Not sure how this got so abrasive for you? But I guess that's one way to shut down dialogue.

[chrisco37]

40 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Exactly.

People are complex, contradictory, and dare I say it...hypocritical. It's human nature. You can praise someone for one aspect of their behavior, and condemn them for another. The people who try to make it all or nothing, to put everyone and everything in boxes...those people cause the most problems in life.

No one is worthy of no respect. No one is worthy of all respect. "Good" people do awful things, and bad people (which is all of us) do selfless, caring things...and even when they do those selfless, caring things for selfish motives, like to garner attention or praise, that doesn't mean the act itself can't be appreciated.

This is a very good post.  

[James J Johnson]

11 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

...saying that I agreed with his opinion, namely that the FBI knocking on CGC's door couldn't happen soon enough......

For openly offering a pressing service and a restoration removal service to the public? And treating the books in a prescribed manner that doesn't violate CGCs parameters of what qualifies for a blue label?

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, comicwiz said:

I don't think the timeline in cards should start before Mastro admitted to trimming the T-206 in 2013.

Oh, sure it should! So many in the hobby knew that 00000001 was trimmed that it's inconceivable that the grading service who encapsulated in their first slab wouldn't have known, let alone detected it if they lived in a cave and were unaware. There were photocopies of that card circulating through the hobby for 10+ years prior to it being graded in their first slab. The middleman man shopping it around sent a copy of it to every major dealer in America, with the oversized, wavy right edge prior to Mastro shaving it.

These people used to use language like, Dealer 1: "Beautiful. But how the heck are you going to get that past the grading service"   Dealer 2: "Don't worry. You get me the card, I'll get it through".

There were dealers who sent cards off to someone who used similar machinery to put new edges on cards with that distinctive factory edge sawtooth! The dealers didn't pay them. They worked on %. They'd take a '5' worth $100 and send it to be recut into a 7 worth $1000 and then give the cutter $200 or $300 once submitted and sold.

There's never been anything even distantly akin to something like this, and far more, with CGC.

[LordRahl]

2 hours ago, MatterEaterLad said:

A related thought -- does anyone every wonder how far off the CGC census is from reality with all the re-subs?

Like if a major key shows 1,000 copies in the census, how many are the same book cracked and resubbed 2-3 times? 

Not sure if it affects the value by the perceived scarcity or abundance, but it make me wonder what use is a census that's off by XX% 

I think it's pretty far off on some books in higher grades. Silver age in particular. If the census says there are 10 FF 12s in 9.4 and 4 in 9.6 (made up numbers, didn't look up the actuals) I'm betting that at least 3-4 of those books are ghosts. It's still a useful tool as it should show relative scarcity but it's definitely not the end all be all.

[comicwiz]

13 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

For openly offering a pressing service and a restoration removal service to the public? And treating the books in a prescribed manner that doesn't violate CGCs parameters of what qualifies for a blue label?

For inflating grades. That Curator TOS 57 9.2 is still a 9.2. Worse of which is its history has been scrubbed in the name of making a quick buck. Anyone that buys it thinking it's a 9.6 is being hoodwinked into believiing they are buying something in better condition that it really is. All those Cole Schave books I showed earlier should have been downgraded from their original grade, NOT the grade improvement they received. I also don't know how a book with staple tears or other damage caused by pressing can still maintain their grade, and even get rewarded for being in lesser condition before it was pressed. Whether you believe it's because CGC is turning a blind eye to it, I'm of the opinion they are definitely enabling it.

[Prince Namor]

26 minutes ago, DavidTheDavid said:

Not sure how this got so abrasive for you? But I guess that's one way to shut down dialogue.

Who’s shutting down your dialogue? You’re free to continue to speak about it all you want. 

If I’m walking down the street and some homeless guy starts talking to me about the end of the world and I humor him for just a moment - ME walking away isn’t shutting down his dialogue - it’s ME deciding MY time isn’t worth it. 

My time isn’t worth this (to me, in my opinion) weird train of thought you are all about. Please, by all means feel free to carry on and on and on about it - I choose not to be a part of it. 

No one’s shutting you down - you’re disingenuous attempt to portray me as the culprit to you as a victim is as transparent as cellophane - and par for the course around this forum. 

By all means, continue to carry on to your hearts content. 

[LordRahl]

2 hours ago, comicwiz said:

Do you realize I quoted another member, saying that I agreed with his opinion, namely that the FBI knocking on CGC's door couldn't happen soon enough, and YOU came along and made an impolite remark towards me.

Stop playing the victim, and get your facts straight. If you feel the need to come to the defense of practices you may or may not partake in, which may be frowned upon, be prepared to be called out for it.

This is laughable. What precisely would the FBI be investigating?

On a side note. What exactly is the dream scenario of your anti-CGC agenda? CGC folds up and you and Borock live happily ever after in CBCS land? You do realize that if somehow CBCS became the major player, all of the same things would be happening with them in people trying to game the system. If they aren't already.

[comicwiz]

6 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

Oh, sure it should! So many in the hobby knew that 00000001 was trimmed that it's inconceivable that the grading service who encapsulated in their first slab wouldn't have known, let alone detected it if they lived in a cave and were unaware. There were photocopies of that card circulating through the hobby for 10+ years prior to it being graded in their first slab. The middleman man shopping it around sent a copy of it to every major dealer in America, with the oversized, wavy right edge prior to Mastro shaving it.

These people used to use language like, Dealer 1: "Beautiful. But how the heck are you going to get that past the grading service"   Dealer 2: "Don't worry. You get me the card, I'll get it through".

There were dealers who sent cards off to someone who used similar machinery to put new edges on cards with that distinctive factory edge sawtooth! The dealers didn't pay them. They worked on %. They'd take a '5' worth $100 and send it to be recut into a 7 worth $1000 and then give the cutter $200 or $300 once submitted and sold.

There's never been anything even distantly akin to something like this, and far more, with CGC.

Until the JIM 83 incident that saw a blue go to purple, then blue again, there had always been a belief that people were submitting books around CGC convention schedule. That incident brought it to light, but that loophole had been used for years. Just because people weren't advertising it as a "pay to play" scheme to move iffy comics doesn't mean it wasn't as rampant a problem.

[James J Johnson]

1 minute ago, comicwiz said:

For inflating grades. That Curator TOS 57 9.2 is still a 9.2. Worse of which is its history has been scrubbed in the name of making a quick buck. Anyone that buys it thinking it's a 9.6 is being hoodwinked into believiing they are buying something in better condition that it really is. All those Cole Schave books I showed earlier should have been downgraded from their original grade, NOT the grade improvement they received. I also don't know how a book with staple tears or other damage caused by pressing can still maintain their grade, and even get rewarded for being in lesser condition before it was pressed. Whether you believe it's because CGC is turning a blind eye to it, I'm of the opinion they are definitely enabling it.

Here's what enabling would be.

For the sake of argument, let's say that the first book that CGC ever graded was the Dentist's Action 1. Most famous book in the hobby, then and now, right? Similar to the Mint T-206 Wagner that everbody knew about long before the card grading service started.

So let's suppose that the Action 1 was trimmed and it was pretty much common knowledge amongst the elite of the hobby, but CGC slabbed it, their first book, serial number 000000001 in a blue label graded 9.6, no mention of trim. First off, how probable would it have been for all of the graders to miss it? How probable would it be that those heading CGC, all hobby people, wouldn't have known, even though Geppi, Fishler, et., etc., and all the rest of the hobby hoi-polio would have known?

That's what happened with the Wagner. That scenario would have been enabling and collusion.

[kav]

This thread has legs

[Logan510]

34 minutes ago, chrisco37 said:

This is a very good post.  

I always consider the source 

[kav]

indeed

[FlyingDonut]

This thread has legs, but it is amusing me to no end. This thread is like a Broadway revival of a beloved play. We've had this story before 8-10-12 years ago, and now it is coming back. The same arguments are being made on both sides, the same people are making them, and the same vitriol is coming up. Remakes aren't always required.

[comicwiz]

10 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

Here's what enabling would be.

For the sake of argument, let's say that the first book that CGC ever graded was the Dentist's Action 1. Most famous book in the hobby, then and now, right? Similar to the Mint T-206 Wagner that everbody knew about long before the card grading service started.

So let's suppose that the Action 1 was trimmed and it was pretty much common knowledge amongst the elite of the hobby, but CGC slabbed it, their first book, serial number 000000001 in a blue label graded 9.6, no mention of trim. First off, how probable would it have been for all of the graders to miss it? How probable would it be that those heading CGC, all hobby people, wouldn't have known, even though Geppi, Fishler, et., etc., and all the rest of the hobby hoi-polio would have known?

That's what happened with the Wagner. That scenario would have been enabling and collusion.

That scenario already happened with the Ewart trimmed comics. Most major scandals of this kind have shown the grader roll up it's sleeves and take the item out of circulation. With the Ewart scandal, there were hundreds of books out there, and many of the people who witnessed that bomb being dropped were now coming to the realization they probably would not be able to see what they had into the book because it was tainted. So even if everyone knew, and could cross-reference it on the list I put up for people to check, NO ONE was offering up a solution to take all those comics out of circulation. Everyone stuck their heads in the sand and waited for it to all blow over. The ones who were panicked cracked them out and got them resubbed so the serial numbers wouldn't connect those books to the scandal. If that isn't enabling or collusion, then it's certainly irresponsible.

Edited July 23, 2019 by comicwiz

[Lazyboy]

6 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

I always consider the source 

Which is absolutely hilarious, considering the content of that post.

[DavidTheDavid]

14 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Who’s shutting down your dialogue? You’re free to continue to speak about it all you want. 

If I’m walking down the street and some homeless guy starts talking to me about the end of the world and I humor him for just a moment - ME walking away isn’t shutting down his dialogue - it’s ME deciding MY time isn’t worth it. 

My time isn’t worth this (to me, in my opinion) weird train of thought you are all about. Please, by all means feel free to carry on and on and on about it - I choose not to be a part of it. 

No one’s shutting you down - you’re disingenuous attempt to portray me as the culprit to you as a victim is as transparent as cellophane - and par for the course around this forum. 

By all means, continue to carry on to your hearts content. 

You seem to have misconstrued my tone. And my intent. And, well, quite a few things. I don't see much benefit to continuing this, so I'll disengage. Happy collecting. 

[comicwiz]

5 minutes ago, FlyingDonut said:

This thread has legs, but it is amusing me to no end. This thread is like a Broadway revival of a beloved play. We've had this story before 8-10-12 years ago, and now it is coming back. The same arguments are being made on both sides, the same people are making them, and the same vitriol is coming up. Remakes aren't always required.

You're the Dennis Miller of commenting on them.

Edited July 23, 2019 by comicwiz