MCU's SPIDER-MAN: NO WAY HOME (2021?) 7 7

[drotto]

On 12/25/2021 at 8:11 PM, CAHokie said:

So he was lying then or lying now? 

I would assume he is lying now.  The movie came out in 1991 (may be wronge on the exact year)  If it takes you over 25 years to make a new comment or come out with a different interpretation, it is something that did not cross your mind at the time. If it did not cross your mind, it was not your intention when you created it.

[AnthonyTheAbyss]

Well that was a quick 1 billion.

 

***Maybe "The 355" will stop it<---(cringing every time I see the commercial for this movie)

[drotto]

On 12/25/2021 at 6:21 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Some of the greatest films ever made have contained strong social messages i.e. Frank Capra's It's a Wonderful Life or John Ford's The Grapes of Wrath. Parasite, last year's Best Picture winner was about how capitalism makes slaves of the have-nots.

But there is massive difference between making a movie with that at it's core, and making shallow token characters that only exist to say look at us we are doing it also. It is no longer revolutionary or novel to have a character that represents, where it has zero impact on the story being told. When you have, hey look at my friend who is XYZ, and saying that is the only reason that character exists.

 

That is pandering, and that is what people are tired of.

[kav]

On 12/25/2021 at 5:38 PM, drotto said:

I would assume he is lying now.  The movie came out in 1991 (may be wronge on the exact year)  If it takes you over 25 years to make a new comment or come out with a different interpretation, it is something that did not cross your mind at the time. If it did not cross your mind, it was not your intention when you created it.

If I had the motivation to look through my vast T2 book collection I would do so-I recall pretty clearly reading that he chose a cop-a good guy-to surprise the audience that he's the bad guy.  I do recall watching the film and thinking the cop was the good guy and being surprised.  Pretty sure everyone in the audience did likewise.

[kav]

On 12/25/2021 at 5:49 PM, drotto said:

But there is massive difference between making a movie with that at it's core, and making shallow token characters that only exist to say look at us we are doing it also. It is no longer revolutionary or novel to have a character that represents, where it has zero impact on the story being told. When you have, hey look at my friend who is XYZ, and saying that is the only reason that character exists.

 

That is pandering, and that is what people are tired of.

and its also insultng to the people being pandered too.  "Look youre human too!  I put you in my movie and stuff!".

[Hawkman]

On 12/25/2021 at 5:10 PM, kav said:

he only said this in 2020-virtue signalling.  In all past books about the film, I dont recall that ever being said.

You do not know this at all. You are just guessing. This is disingenuous and needs to stop. If he said it, he said it.  

[kav]

On 12/25/2021 at 6:53 PM, Hawkman said:

You do not know this at all. You are just guessing. This is disingenuous and needs to stop. If he said it, he said it.  

didnt say it publicly then.  I've read pretty much every book or magazine abt T2 as it is my favorite film of all time and never saw that once.

[Xenosmilus]

I tried and get tickets tonight to see it a second time with my brother and mom who have not seen it. It’s sold out for the next few days! 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 12/25/2021 at 8:50 PM, kav said:

On 12/25/2021 at 8:49 PM, drotto said:

But there is massive difference between making a movie with that at it's core, and making shallow token characters that only exist to say look at us we are doing it also. It is no longer revolutionary or novel to have a character that represents, where it has zero impact on the story being told. When you have, hey look at my friend who is XYZ, and saying that is the only reason that character exists.

 

That is pandering, and that is what people are tired of.

and its also insultng to the people being pandered too.  "Look youre human too!  I put you in my movie and stuff!".

On 12/25/2021 at 3:20 PM, kav said:

I dont want ANY politics in my movies-not the stuff I agree with, not the stuff I disagree with-nothing.  It doesnt belong, kills the story.  Stop killing stories, hollywood.

Ah, okay. Here's my take.

What kills a story is simply bad storytelling, not what color or gender random characters are in the story. And what makes up bad storytelling? A weak set-up for the story's main problem. Not sticking to your plot's through line as as the story follows its three act structure. Weak dialogue. Plot holes. Insufficient development of the main character when the story needed it. Things like that. Stuff that Aristotle wrote about in Poetics.

Including racially or gender diverse characters in a story because the storyteller doesn't want every single character in a movie to be a white straight male does not constitute bad storytelling. And there doesn't need to be a reason for this or that character to be non-white, female, gay, transgender, or whatever, just like there doesn't have to be a reason for this or that character to be white, straight, or male.

Again, it only becomes bad storytelling if our storyteller simply can't tell a compelling story, stick to the through line of the plot, uses weak dialogue, etc. A good storyteller can still tell that compelling effective story even if they use every token character in the book.

Edited December 26, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[drotto]

On 12/26/2021 at 10:06 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

Ah, okay. Here's my take.

What kills a story is simply bad storytelling, not what color or gender random characters are in the story. And what makes up bad storytelling? A weak set-up for the story's main problem. Not sticking to your plot's through line as as the story follows its three act structure. Weak dialogue. Plot holes. Insufficient development of the main character when the story needed it. Things like that. Stuff that Aristotle wrote about in Poetics.

Including racially or gender diverse characters in a story because the storyteller doesn't want every single character in a movie to be a white straight male does not constitute bad storytelling. And there doesn't need to be a reason for this or that character to be non-white, female, gay, transgender, or whatever, just like there doesn't have to be a reason for this or that character to be white, straight, or male.

Again, it only becomes bad storytelling if our storyteller simply can't tell a compelling story, stick to the through line of the plot, uses weak dialogue, etc. A good storyteller can still tell that compelling effective story even if they use every token character in the book.

On a basic level, for once, I agree with you.  But, it has become very common for bad story telling to center around this type of character.  Writers and creators go out of their way to be inclusive, then make the only interesting thing about those characters the traits which make them diverse.  More often then not they fail to create any type of story arc, character growth, or interesting stories.  Just having a character posses a certain set of traits in not inherently interesting, especially when there is nothing else there. Then other creators rush to be inclusive continue making the exact same mistake, creating diverse characters that are just composed of surface traits, nothing deeper or more interesting. Trying to shock or gain headlines, which are short term, and never knowing what to do with the character after the initial, hey look at what we just did phase passes. It is getting very old.

 

I also dislike the current idea that everyone needs to see themselves in a character in every property in order to like or relate to that property. Good characters are interesting and relatable to everyone, regardless on what superficial traits they posses. Personally, Kitty, Rogue, and Nightcrawler has always been my favorite X-Men, and Wonder Woman is a far more interesting to me then Superman.  These characters are vastly different from RL me, than countless other comic characters, and those differences have never stopped them from being relatable and interesting to me. 

[kav]

On 12/26/2021 at 8:40 AM, drotto said:

On a basic level, for once, I agree with you.  But, it has become very common for bad story telling to center around this type of character.  Writers and creators go out of their way to be inclusive, then make the only interesting thing about those characters the traits which make them diverse.  More often then not they fail to create any type of story arc, character growth, or interesting stories.  Just having a character posses a certain set of traits in not inherently interesting, especially when there is nothing else there. Then other creators rush to be inclusive continue making the exact same mistake, creating diverse characters that are just composed of surface traits, nothing deeper or more interesting. Trying to shock or gain headlines, which are short term, and never knowing what to do with the character after the initial, hey look at what we just did phase passes. It is getting very old.

 

I also dislike the current idea that everyone needs to see themselves in a character in every property in order to like or relate to that property. Good characters are interesting and relatable to everyone, regardless on what superficial traits they posses. Personally, Kitty, Rogue, and Nightcrawler has always been my favorite X-Men, and Wonder Woman is a far more interesting to me then Superman.  These characters are vastly different from RL me, than countless other comic characters, and those differences have never stopped them from being relatable and interesting to me. 

Exactly.  I love the movie Shaft the sam jackson one.  Love it.  I dont need to have the same skin color to identify with shaft.  Nope.  
This whole focus on skin color and sexual orientation is the opposite of what martin luther king envisioned.   

 

On 12/26/2021 at 7:06 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

Again, it only becomes bad storytelling if our storyteller simply can't tell a compelling story, stick to the through line of the plot, uses weak dialogue, etc. A good storyteller can still tell that compelling effective story even if they use every token character in the book.

  all I can say at this point is doesnt it feel false?  Doesnt the lineup in Eternals feel false?  It feels false to me.  I would say more to elaborate, but I would get a strike.

[kav]

People can identify with the aliens in Avatar and they are giant and blue.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 12/26/2021 at 11:40 AM, drotto said:

On a basic level, for once, I agree with you.  But, it has become very common for bad story telling to center around this type of character.  Writers and creators go out of their way to be inclusive, then make the only interesting thing about those characters the traits which make them diverse.  More often then not they fail to create any type of story arc, character growth, or interesting stories.  Just having a character posses a certain set of traits in not inherently interesting, especially when there is nothing else there. Then other creators rush to be inclusive continue making the exact same mistake, creating diverse characters that are just composed of surface traits, nothing deeper or more interesting. Trying to shock or gain headlines, which are short term, and never knowing what to do with the character after the initial, hey look at what we just did phase passes. It is getting very old.

You say it is common. Can you give an example then for discussion?

Again, if a storyteller makes a movie about a black superhero that's seen as a bad movie, it isn't because the character is black, it's because the storyteller failed to create a movie with enough tension to keep the audience interested, or failed to account for plot holes in the story, or allowed his/her characters to speak unrealistic or uninteresting dialogue, or other bad storytelling technique. It's not because the character is black. There are hundreds of movies and TV shows that are awful that have an all-white and straight cast of characters. Diversity or even wanting diversity for diversity's sake in one's film has nothing to do with whether a movie is bad or not. The fault is simply bad storytelling by the writers, the director, the actors, and the post-production editors involved.

In the case of Eternals, whose thread we are in, I absolutely loved the film and I count it among my favorite MCU films now. However I don't deny that approximately 48% of critics on Rotten Tomatoes gave the movie a less than favorable review. But it wasn't killed because it seemed to be "forcing diversity" into the film. A majority of critics had fault with its "bloated" storytelling as it told the backstory of every single Eternal character which included the film's constant extended flashbacks which in turn broke up the smooth flow of  the present-day story. Had nothing to do with the fact that the Eternals featured a cast that represents nearly every racial type on Earth.

[Bosco685]

Massive win for Sony and Marvel Studios. But especially the former due to the bulk of the profits from this goes to that studio. Along with 100% of Venom: Let There Be Carnage. General audiences still love all things Spider-Man. Pretty good for a character that some said doesn't matter anymore.

[Bosco685]

On 12/25/2021 at 7:04 PM, kav said:

every movie should have some message.  Its called the 'theme' in scriptwriting-this is not what I'm talking about here.  The only exceptions are superhero and james bond type movies where the protagonist does not experience change.
@CAHokie @Bosco685

I don't know. Even Doctor Strangelove, a celebrated comedy classic, was all about satirical takes on political posturing and strong social statements. To include Slim Pickens riding a bomb into Russia.

[Jaydogrules]

On 12/27/2021 at 5:00 AM, Bosco685 said:

Massive win for Sony and Marvel Studios. But especially the former due to the bulk of the profits from this goes to that studio. Along with 100% of Venom: Let There Be Carnage. General audiences still love all things Spider-Man. Pretty good for a character that some said doesn't matter anymore.

Who, exactly, said that ?  Scott Mendelson at Forbes?

-J.

[lou_fine]

On 12/25/2021 at 5:44 PM, AnthonyTheAbyss said:

Well that was a quick 1 billion.

Yes, especially fast given that like other Marvel films earlier this year, it has not been released in the huge China movie marketplace.  

Looks like it is now sitting atop the top global box office charts for 2021 ahead of The Battle of Lake Chanjin and also Hi, Mom:  

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/world/

 

[kav]

On 12/27/2021 at 6:14 AM, Bosco685 said:

I don't know. Even Doctor Strangelove, a celebrated comedy classic, was all about satirical takes on political posturing and strong social statements. To include Slim Pickens riding a bomb into Russia.

Surely you can see the difference between that and the pandering in movies like eternals tho.

[chrisco37]

He doesn't.  And don't call him Shirley. 

[paperheart]

On 12/27/2021 at 9:46 AM, lou_fine said:

Yes, especially fast given that like other Marvel films earlier this year, it has not been released in the huge China movie marketplace.  

Looks like it is now sitting atop the top global box office charts for 2021 ahead of The Battle of Lake Chanjin and also Hi, Mom:  

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/world/

 

will end at >2x the next highest grossing Hollywood movie; NTTD @ $775MM

Edited December 27, 2021 by paperheart