Batman 1 CGC 9.4!!!! 6 6

[Aman619]

thats right, scans are all affected by the setting at the time they are made, and if corrected, by the settings on the monitors used when correcting them.  These scans are an accurate representation of the colors on a Batman 1 scanned from the comics and not through the CGC case.  The Heritage reds are too dark, they are actuallymore reddish orange, but the other colors are pretty accurate.  Batman's cape is not as black as you ended up in your fixed scans.  heres some images:

 

[Aman619]

heres the whole cover

 

 

[Chicago Boy]

Thx for uploading those to review with commentary. What a beautiful book. I’ve seen 9.4’s GA books up close that don’t touch these pics.  Hope it goes for 2 milly

Edited November 27, 2020 by Chicago Boy

[fishbone]

4 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

No mystery here...if you had read some of my early posts, I  am still the collector I was back in the early 60's/70's and we never showed out hand and I mean never. Early on if a dealer or other collector knew you needed the book, the price was double, second early on a number of great collections were stolen and of course none of that has been discussed here on the board it has been lost to the tears of the many collectors of the past...look into the SF comic books which Nick bought...he came to the Berkley comic convention in ...1972 or 3 showed off the big stack of timely's he had just paid for $1 a piece for and they were amazing condition wise..I saw the entire stack, as did others..where did showing off get him?..stolen thats where..Hello. Old school and I am proud of that collectors had a code...of conduct....make that survival...besides the whole world laughing and being against us and calling us "dorks" we prevailed to a point in 2020 that nobody back then would believe. Like it or not the creation of the CGC will forever go down in history keeping GA/SA comic book collecting relevant forever. Your version of comic book collecting and mine are polar opposites..yes I can adapt, slowly but you have to lived it..been there...the excitement...not for $$$ but for the quest and finding and reading GA material which we thought had been lost forever. It was and will ever be to me all about the GA comic book itself.

 I cannot tell you how many times everybody spoke about the END or doom, or that prices have peaked, there was a man by the name of Bruce Hamilton..he helped create the CGC and later became disenchanted with it and he had the biggest safe that I had ever seen for his collectables...he was a pioneer collector who also lived by the early collectors code of slience. Men of honor...yes, there was less money on the table back then...still it was who you were that counted back then, not what you owned.

awesome response Mitch, and thank you. You are right, I cannot appreciate what it was like to be a collector way back then - much different than now, than ten years ago, even twenty years ago.

but .... I still think you should post a book or two !!  ...... ok, i am kidding. You do what is best for you, but I will keep reading your posts and advice 

[ThothAmon]

On 11/26/2020 at 5:59 PM, lou_fine said:

Why, kind Sir..............................................ask and ye shall receive:  

 

Well, okay.......................................if not that oldie moldy picture, then how about this one here with his very own comic book cover appearance:  

 

4 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

we never showed out hand and I mean never.

Perhaps exceptions were made to get in the newspaper?  Just messing.  Lol. Still have the same smile btw even if time has tamed the cowlick some. 

Edited November 27, 2020 by ThothAmon

[MasterChief]

11 hours ago, Bronty said:

23 hours ago, tth2 said:

I do think Heritage deserves a huge amount of credit for providing an extensive database with scans and prices that is accessible to all, despite knowing that information about a book's history could impact its price.  The same can't be said for their competitors.  

Absolutely, although I don’t think that’s altruistic .   I think I recall reading that it was a condition of some past legal settlement (although I don’t recall for sure).    Regardless, it’s welcome.   

I tend to agree. The Heritage archives are so littered with before and after images of apparent comic book manipulation it's mindboggling. I have long suspected since the early days that maintaining an online archive of past auctions is a litigation risk measure. Jim Halperin himself seemingly alluded to a potential legal argument in his response to the 2005 Forbes Magazine about his business practices:

"As far as I know, Heritage is also the only auction company that maintains a free, fully searchable Past Auction Archive, with photography. Obviously, with hundreds of thousands of past coin sales, and message boards on the PCGS and NGC sites, it is no great challenge to find coins from past auctions that have subsequently been upgraded and reconsigned, even if such items comprise a very small percentage of the total. If Heritage were trying to do anything sneaky, why would we provide all the evidence in such an easy-to-research form?"

What Forbes Didn't Tell You: https://www.ha.com/c/ref/halperin.zx?type=surl-forbes#1foot

[MasterChief]

On 11/25/2020 at 9:05 PM, Gotham Kid said:

Aloha Mitch and thank you for the scan comparison.

Aloha, Peter! And no problem... Hope all is well with you and yours. 🤙

[LDarkseid1]

18 hours ago, MasterChief said:

I tend to agree. The Heritage archives are so littered with before and after images of apparent comic book manipulation it's mindboggling. I have long suspected since the early days that maintaining an online archive of past auctions is a litigation risk measure. Jim Halperin himself seemingly alluded to a potential legal argument in his response to the 2005 Forbes Magazine about his business practices:

"As far as I know, Heritage is also the only auction company that maintains a free, fully searchable Past Auction Archive, with photography. Obviously, with hundreds of thousands of past coin sales, and message boards on the PCGS and NGC sites, it is no great challenge to find coins from past auctions that have subsequently been upgraded and reconsigned, even if such items comprise a very small percentage of the total. If Heritage were trying to do anything sneaky, why would we provide all the evidence in such an easy-to-research form?"

What Forbes Didn't Tell You: https://www.ha.com/c/ref/halperin.zx?type=surl-forbes#1foot

Comicconnect also has a large, accessible past catalogue of all their sales with front/back photos. Seems like they’re on par with Heritage unless I’m missing something.

[bpc3qh]

11 minutes ago, LDarkseid1 said:

Comicconnect also has a large, accessible past catalogue of all their sales with front/back photos. Seems like they’re on par with Heritage unless I’m missing something.

ComicLink is starting to get better, at least for the books you yourself bid on.

[MasterChief]

 

On 11/25/2020 at 6:22 PM, Mmehdy said:

Question: on a mega key... what is the record grade jump from initial CGC  to final upgraded grade? Anyone know?

On 11/26/2020 at 12:59 PM, lou_fine said:

Well, okay.......................................if not that oldie moldy picture, then how about this one here with his very own comic book cover appearance:  

 

Seems you're enamored with Daredevil Comics #1. I was too some years ago. Really wanted a nice copy for the collection. That's until I looked under the hood and discovered that many books, including numerous current top-tier 9.0 and above specimens, have been doctored. The extracurricular work on the lower-grade books has bastardized the high-grade population pool thereby diluting the relative value of unique copies. One could argue that the value of high-grade books would be even higher today if their scarcity had not been diluted by underhanded practices.

For example, the Vancouver copy, which currently sits alone as the single best copy at 9.6, is in reality a manipulated 8.0. The first recorded sale of the 8.0 copy was by Hakes Collectables in 2007. It reappeared with a five-banger grade increase topping the census when Heritage "featured" it for auction in 2014.

 

 

 

References
Heritage Auctions: Daredevil Comics #1 Daredevil Battles Hitler - Vancouver pedigree (Lev Gleason, 1941) CGC NM+ 9.6 

Hank's Collectables:

Edited November 28, 2020 by MasterChief
image work

[MasterChief]

As far as to your question of record grade jump goes... well, in keeping with Daredevil #1, the original 9.6 Nicolas Cage "file copy" of Daredevil Battles Hitler #1 is an interesting if not inexplicable study. It may very well answer the question. Although I suspect it's not what you may have expected.

Slippery When Wet

First listed as an apparent re-glossed CGC 9.6 in the 2002 Heritage Comic Auction #804, it was the highest graded specimen at the time of auctioning.

The book resurfaced 8 years later in Heritage Comic Art Auction #7017. Unfortunately, the post Cage auction years weren't good for that particular copy because it bore a new purple restored certification label with a lesser grade of 9.2, and without the "Cage" designation. Apparently, some gambler tried their hand at resubmission roulette thinking CGC might miss the restoration (re-glossed cover) the second time around. Regrettably, for the submitter, it didn't work out.

The book went into hiding for a couple more years only to turn up in a 2012 eBay auction. This time around, however, it was wearing a certified Blue Universal 9.4 label without the re-glossed cover annotation. Currently, the whereabouts of the book are unknown. The last certification number for the 9.4 copy is no longer searchable.

 

  

 

References
Heritage Auctions:
Daredevil Comics #1 File Copy (Lev Gleason, 1941) CGC Apparent NM+ 9.6
Daredevil Comics #1 (Lev Gleason, 1941) CGC Apparent NM- 9.2
eBay:

Edited November 29, 2020 by MasterChief
image work, emphasis added

[LDarkseid1]

49 minutes ago, MasterChief said:

 

 

Seems you're enamored with Daredevil Comics #1. I was too some years ago. Really wanted a nice copy for the collection. That's until I looked under the hood and discovered that many books, including numerous current top-tier 9.0 and above specimens, have been doctored. The extracurricular work on the lower-grade books has bastardized the high-grade population pool thereby diluting the relative value of unique copies. One could argue that the value of high-grade books would be even higher today if their scarcity had not been diluted by underhanded practices.

For example, the Vancouver copy, which currently sits alone as the single best copy at 9.6, is in reality a manipulated 8.0. The first recorded sale of the 8.0 copy was by Hakes Collectables in 2007. It reappeared with a five-banger grade increase topping the census when Heritage "featured" it for auction in 2014.

 

 

 

References
Heritage Auctions: Daredevil Comics #1 Daredevil Battles Hitler - Vancouver pedigree (Lev Gleason, 1941) CGC NM+ 9.6 

Hank's Collectables:

Looking at the book, and I mean it’s only the front cover I can go by, but I’d say it seems more in line that it was originally under graded then later on over graded. Also a press, maybe a clean clearly helped. So the eventual 9.6 doesn’t bother me as much I guess personally, unless there’s other obvious defects I’m missing, a small dust shadow on the back, etc... No doubt it’s crazy how these transformations can happen though! I was soo sad when I found out the Action 1 white page 9.0 was an upgrade and not a new to market copy lol.

Edited November 28, 2020 by LDarkseid1

[RareHighGrade]

Fascinating stuff MasterChief.  If you have more, keep 'em coming.

[MasterChief]

3 hours ago, LDarkseid1 said:

Looking at the book, and I mean it’s only the front cover I can go by, but I’d say it seems more in line that it was originally under graded then later on over graded. Also a press, maybe a clean clearly helped. So the eventual 9.6 doesn’t bother me as much I guess personally, unless there’s other obvious defects I’m missing, a small dust shadow on the back, etc... No doubt it’s crazy how these transformations can happen though! I was soo sad when I found out the Action 1 white page 9.0 was an upgrade and not a new to market copy lol.

My apologies. I should have posted the back cover for examination purposes. It's below along with my take... 

In my approximation the Vancouver copy was graded accurately as an 8.0.

The lower left corner of the front cover displays a rather significant corner blunt. So much so the scanner created a reflective pool of what appears to be white light upon the concave surface area of the compression fold.

Furthermore, the back cover exhibited a fair amount of soiling in the white perimeter area surrounding the Daredevil advertisement. Couple that with the creases revealed along the lower spine, which the scanner emphasized as light passed over the subject area, and the blunting apparent on the front cover, and you have a solid very fine specimen.

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by MasterChief
image work

[tth2]

5 hours ago, MasterChief said:

That's until I looked under the hood and discovered that many books, including numerous current top-tier 9.0 and above specimens, have been doctored. The extracurricular work on the lower-grade books has bastardized the high-grade population pool thereby diluting the relative value of unique copies. 

This.

5 hours ago, MasterChief said:

One could argue that the value of high-grade books would be even higher today if their scarcity had not been diluted by underhanded practices.

One of the odd things about our hobby is that the supply axis doesn't seem to be nearly as important as the demand axis.

[Mmehdy]

15 hours ago, MasterChief said:

My apologies. I should have posted the back cover for examination purposes. It's below along with my take... 

In my approximation the Vancouver copy was graded accurately as an 8.0.

The lower left corner of the front cover displays a rather significant corner blunt. So much so the scanner created a reflective pool of what appears to be white light upon the concave surface area of the compression fold.

Furthermore, the back cover exhibited a fair amount of soiling in the white perimeter area surrounding the Daredevil advertisement. Couple that with the creases revealed along the lower spine, which the scanner emphasized as light passed over the subject area, and the blunting apparent on the front cover, and you have a solid very fine specimen.

 

How can they clean that and get away with a blue label...how is that actually done...that is amazing from one photo to the next....WOW thanks for the pic...

[LDarkseid1]

1 hour ago, Mmehdy said:

How can they clean that and get away with a blue label...how is that actually done...that is amazing from one photo to the next....WOW thanks for the pic...

Well a lot of that from what I can tell is general surface wear or dirt, which can be pressed and dry cleaned off. You don’t need to chemically clean that. So the blue label makes sense to me. However, it sounds like everyone has implied Heritage’s lighting gives an additional appearance of being cleaner than it is. So I’d say that’s playing a role as well.

Edited November 29, 2020 by LDarkseid1

[bluechip]

16 hours ago, tth2 said:

This.

One of the odd things about our hobby is that the supply axis doesn't seem to be nearly as important as the demand axis.

And that both are sometimes manipulated.  

[Mmehdy]

14 minutes ago, bluechip said:

And that both are sometimes manipulated.  

I will second  that but much greater in my opinion in the original comic art market than in Ga comic books and I remember a story on these boards about a comic art dealer who routinely raised prices on comic art that did not sell and other stories of inter comic art deal sales  to raise overall market prices. While comic book and comic art auctions are subject to manipulation.. the vast scale of say 1700 items auctioned at one time such as the HA Sign auctions are less subject to this given the sheer size of it.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Mmehdy

[lou_fine]

21 hours ago, tth2 said:

On 11/28/2020 at 2:02 PM, MasterChief said:

That's until I looked under the hood and discovered that many books, including numerous current top-tier 9.0 and above specimens, have been doctored. The extracurricular work on the lower-grade books has bastardized the high-grade population pool thereby diluting the relative value of unique copies. 

This.

On 11/28/2020 at 2:02 PM, MasterChief said:

One could argue that the value of high-grade books would be even higher today if their scarcity had not been diluted by underhanded practices.

One of the odd things about our hobby is that the supply axis doesn't seem to be nearly as important as the demand axis.

From a supply point of view, the one advantage that GA buyers of these high end books have is the very limited number of copies of these books in play makes it so much easier to track these books as they are going through their permutations ever upwards in terms of graded condition.  This allows potential bidders to bid accordingly with better information assuming they are conducting their due dilegence on the book before placing their bids.  

Good luck trying to do that on much more common BA or CA books where there might be hundreds, if not thousands of copies already graded in 9.0 and above just waiting to have their potential maximized so that they can take their Great Leap upwards.  Lots of temptation to do this on the hundreds of HG copies of TMNT 1's and/or Tomb of Dracula 10's when you see a copy selling for for $90K and $85K respectively.  Even easier to hide the work done when you have literally thousands on copies in these high grades to play with for big dollar books like Spidey 129 and Hulk 181 where you see the latter being able to sell in CGC 9.8 for a record price of $59K either last year or earlier this year. 

I guess the latest one that should be relatively easy to launder into the marketplace for big money would be the red hot Spidey 300 with the seller of a CGC 9.8 graded copy grudgingly having to accept a piddly offer of only $15,000 on the book or at a $5K discount   off their so very reasonable BIN price of only $20,000.  Especially when you consider the fact that this is a relatively common CA book as there's already well over 10,000 copies of this book graded in CGC 9.0 and above for the manipulators to play around with.  

Well okay, to each their own and if I were the lucky seller of this apparently super rare book even at a $5K discount.......     

Edited November 30, 2020 by lou_fine