Batman 1 CGC 9.4!!!! 6 6

[bluechip]

On 11/29/2020 at 4:31 PM, lou_fine said:

From a supply point of view, the one advantage that GA buyers of these high end books have is the very limited number of copies of these books in play makes it so much easier to track these books as they are going through their permutations ever upwards in terms of graded condition.  This allows potential bidders to bid accordingly with better information assuming they are conducting their due dilegence on the book before placing their bids.  

Good luck trying to do that on much more common BA or CA books where there might be hundreds, if not thousands of copies already graded in 9.0 and above just waiting to have their potential maximized so that they can take their Great Leap upwards.  Lots of temptation to do this on the hundreds of HG copies of TMNT 1's and/or Tomb of Dracula 10's when you see a copy selling for for $90K and $85K respectively.  Even easier to hide the work done when you have literally thousands on copies in these high grades to play with for big dollar books like Spidey 129 and Hulk 181 where you see the latter being able to sell in CGC 9.8 for a record price of $59K either last year or earlier this year. 

I guess the latest one that should be relatively easy to launder into the marketplace for big money would be the red hot Spidey 300 with the seller of a CGC 9.8 graded copy grudgingly having to accept a piddly offer of only $15,000 on the book or at a $5K discount   off their so very reasonable BIN price of only $20,000.  Especially when you consider the fact that this is a relatively common CA book as there's already well over 10,000 copies of this book graded in CGC 9.0 and above for the manipulators to play around with.  

Well okay, to each their own and if I were the lucky seller of this apparently super rare book even at a $5K discount.......     

when "relatively common" means hundreds of thousands of copies that virtually all people, including nearly all hobbyists would find indistinguishable from the one that sold for 15K.   Some hobbyists would agree on the grade enough to winnow the hundreds of thousands down but there would still be tens of thousands of copies that seemed indistinguishable.  A few hobbyists who are either top expert and/or purists and/or just arrogant would say they see enough difference to winnow the tens of thousands down to low five figures or maybe even high four figures.   But any way you cut it there's no way there aren't thousands and thousands of copies which on a given day, with a given grader, would not be judged as good or better.

[Wayne-Tec]

I still can’t get over how amazing this book is.

[LDarkseid1]

1 hour ago, Wayne-Tec said:

I still can’t get over how amazing this book is.

Ditto

[PopKulture]

Ugh. The evolution of this thread makes me ill at ease, as the curtain is pulled back further and further. All the hoopla surrounding each and every "new" roll-out of retread books with their higher grade means that the current practices will surely continue. And expand. The financial incentive is there to take THE BEST copies in our hobby and bastardize and damage them. They told us over forty years ago - cool, dry, dark. We drank deeply from the new cup of knowledge of paper preservation, learned from other fields like rare documents, and wondered how it applies to comics. Remember all those charts that started coming out in the late 70's and really proliferated in the 80's and beyond about the physical aging of pulp paper, the acid content, the effects of UV, and so on? Now, on almost a yearly basis it seems, the best copies of the most important books in our hobby are subjected to a barbarism of manipulation. Does anyone seriously believe this does not have a deleterious, long-term effect on the books, especially pressing?? Aging them beyond their years just to squeeze every last cent out of the book? And, on some level, I get it. These practices mean the price difference between a shiny new car or college for all three kids. Or even a summer house, in the more extreme cases. The auction houses are in on it, the grading companies seem complicit, and I believe too many of us tacitly encourage it. In the rearview mirror, the purple label proved a great deterrent to this unseemly practice. Now, that barrier seems at least as circumnavigated as the Maginot Line. 

[PeterPark]

4 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

Ugh. The evolution of this thread makes me ill at ease, as the curtain is pulled back further and further. All the hoopla surrounding each and every "new" roll-out of retread books with their higher grade means that the current practices will surely continue. And expand. The financial incentive is there to take THE BEST copies in our hobby and bastardize and damage them. They told us over forty years ago - cool, dry, dark. We drank deeply from the new cup of knowledge of paper preservation, learned from other fields like rare documents, and wondered how it applies to comics. Remember all those charts that started coming out in the late 70's and really proliferated in the 80's and beyond about the physical aging of pulp paper, the acid content, the effects of UV, and so on? Now, on almost a yearly basis it seems, the best copies of the most important books in our hobby are subjected to a barbarism of manipulation. Does anyone seriously believe this does not have a deleterious, long-term effect on the books, especially pressing?? Aging them beyond their years just to squeeze every last cent out of the book? And, on some level, I get it. These practices mean the price difference between a shiny new car or college for all three kids. Or even a summer house, in the more extreme cases. The auction houses are in on it, the grading companies seem complicit, and I believe too many of us tacitly encourage it. In the rearview mirror, the purple label proved a great deterrent to this unseemly practice. Now, that barrier seems at least as circumnavigated as the Maginot Line. 

I appreciate you.

[Gotham Kid]

7 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

Ugh. The evolution of this thread makes me ill at ease, as the curtain is pulled back further and further. All the hoopla surrounding each and every "new" roll-out of retread books with their higher grade means that the current practices will surely continue. And expand. The financial incentive is there to take THE BEST copies in our hobby and bastardize and damage them. They told us over forty years ago - cool, dry, dark. We drank deeply from the new cup of knowledge of paper preservation, learned from other fields like rare documents, and wondered how it applies to comics. Remember all those charts that started coming out in the late 70's and really proliferated in the 80's and beyond about the physical aging of pulp paper, the acid content, the effects of UV, and so on? Now, on almost a yearly basis it seems, the best copies of the most important books in our hobby are subjected to a barbarism of manipulation. Does anyone seriously believe this does not have a deleterious, long-term effect on the books, especially pressing?? Aging them beyond their years just to squeeze every last cent out of the book? And, on some level, I get it. These practices mean the price difference between a shiny new car or college for all three kids. Or even a summer house, in the more extreme cases. The auction houses are in on it, the grading companies seem complicit, and I believe too many of us tacitly encourage it. In the rearview mirror, the purple label proved a great deterrent to this unseemly practice. Now, that barrier seems at least as circumnavigated as the Maginot Line. 

great post

[PopKulture]

1 minute ago, PeterPark said:

I appreciate you.

 

1 minute ago, Gotham Kid said:

great post

And, really, I don't want to be that guy...

[Aman619]

Gee. Sounds like someone’s moral compass is wound too tight.  

man I love this hobby! 

the wheels are in motion.

 

pick your poison!

Edited December 5, 2020 by Aman619
Thought of a third one...

[Gotham Kid]

22 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said:

In the rearview mirror, the purple label proved a great deterrent to this unseemly practice. Now, that barrier seems at least as circumnavigated as the Maginot Line.

I'm all for collecting restored, especially books with minimal work done but that makes it impossible to have the label color changed. That niche is likely the exception to the rule.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Gotham Kid

[waaaghboss]

8 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said:

I'm all for collecting restored, especially books with minimal work done and/or work that makes it impossible to have the label color changed. That niche is likely the exception to the rule.

Not that I'm in the competition for these big dollar books, but I'd take a book with light color resto on the cover over a doctored steam pressed surgically altered "blue" label any day.

[Mr bla bla]

3 hours ago, waaaghboss said:

Not that I'm in the competition for these big dollar books, but I'd take a book with light color resto on the cover over a doctored steam pressed surgically altered "blue" label any day.

So a “doctored blue label” is now considered worse than a slight plod?

[tth2]

5 hours ago, PopKulture said:

Ugh. The evolution of this thread makes me ill at ease, as the curtain is pulled back further and further. All the hoopla surrounding each and every "new" roll-out of retread books with their higher grade means that the current practices will surely continue. And expand. The financial incentive is there to take THE BEST copies in our hobby and bastardize and damage them. They told us over forty years ago - cool, dry, dark. We drank deeply from the new cup of knowledge of paper preservation, learned from other fields like rare documents, and wondered how it applies to comics. Remember all those charts that started coming out in the late 70's and really proliferated in the 80's and beyond about the physical aging of pulp paper, the acid content, the effects of UV, and so on? Now, on almost a yearly basis it seems, the best copies of the most important books in our hobby are subjected to a barbarism of manipulation. Does anyone seriously believe this does not have a deleterious, long-term effect on the books, especially pressing?? Aging them beyond their years just to squeeze every last cent out of the book? And, on some level, I get it. These practices mean the price difference between a shiny new car or college for all three kids. Or even a summer house, in the more extreme cases. The auction houses are in on it, the grading companies seem complicit, and I believe too many of us tacitly encourage it. In the rearview mirror, the purple label proved a great deterrent to this unseemly practice. Now, that barrier seems at least as circumnavigated as the Maginot Line. 

There's a reason so many collectors have moved into OA over the past decade.

[tth2]

5 hours ago, Aman619 said:

Gee. Sounds like someone’s moral compass is wound too tight.  

Nah, just typical disillusionment of yet another collector once they understand what's been going on in this hobby for the past 15 years. 

Some people have exited or downscaled their involvement as a result.  Others have climbed on the bandwagon because they have a vested interest in the hobby and don't want to see the wheels come off.  

[buttock]

6 hours ago, PopKulture said:

Ugh. The evolution of this thread makes me ill at ease, as the curtain is pulled back further and further. All the hoopla surrounding each and every "new" roll-out of retread books with their higher grade means that the current practices will surely continue. And expand. The financial incentive is there to take THE BEST copies in our hobby and bastardize and damage them. They told us over forty years ago - cool, dry, dark. We drank deeply from the new cup of knowledge of paper preservation, learned from other fields like rare documents, and wondered how it applies to comics. Remember all those charts that started coming out in the late 70's and really proliferated in the 80's and beyond about the physical aging of pulp paper, the acid content, the effects of UV, and so on? Now, on almost a yearly basis it seems, the best copies of the most important books in our hobby are subjected to a barbarism of manipulation. Does anyone seriously believe this does not have a deleterious, long-term effect on the books, especially pressing?? Aging them beyond their years just to squeeze every last cent out of the book? And, on some level, I get it. These practices mean the price difference between a shiny new car or college for all three kids. Or even a summer house, in the more extreme cases. The auction houses are in on it, the grading companies seem complicit, and I believe too many of us tacitly encourage it. In the rearview mirror, the purple label proved a great deterrent to this unseemly practice. Now, that barrier seems at least as circumnavigated as the Maginot Line. 

Let me play a little devil's advocate.  Before CGC you'd often look at a book like this -- prior to it being pressed -- and you'd say clearly that it was nicer than the technical grade.  One thing this discussion has fleshed out is that when comparing these 3 books, the one that's currently a 9.4 was the nicest of the three prior to any manipulation.  25 years ago if you put all 3 out in front of someone and asked them to grade them you'd get a clear hierarchy, but you wouldn't have needed to press out NCB wear to do so -- that would be factored into the grade.  At current you now have a grading company that has decided to make that NCB wear a greater part of the technical grade.  As a consequence of this, in order for the grades on the label to accurately reflect the degree of niceness of these books, you have to monkey with them.  (and let's be fair, pressing likely has zero consequence on the lifespan of the paper)  So all of this to say, that (as least as we're hearing in this thread) CGC actually got the hierarchy of the books right, which should be applauded.  It's just the way that the rules were defined that sits so poorly.  

Taking this a little further, if we wanted CGC to ignore that NCB wear and not factor it into the grade, then you'd get on a slippery slope where a 5 mm thumbnail crease is factored the same as a book length NCB reading bend.  I don't think any of us would be happy with that scenario either.  

But the take home message is that the books appear to have been sorted out accurately by grade, which means that the system actually worked.  

So bottom line is, pressable wear is a factor in grading.  CGC has to take it into account.  The only way to not have it taken into account is a) to not have books certified or b) press it out.  If anyone has any 7 figure books that they're willing to leave that money on the table on principle, then please reach out to me first before selling.  Going forward I just ask that anyone who is going to have a big book graded just have its potential maximized before ever getting it certified so that we no longer have to have these conversations.  

[Mmehdy]

10 hours ago, PopKulture said:

Ugh. The evolution of this thread makes me ill at ease, as the curtain is pulled back further and further. All the hoopla surrounding each and every "new" roll-out of retread books with their higher grade means that the current practices will surely continue. And expand. The financial incentive is there to take THE BEST copies in our hobby and bastardize and damage them. They told us over forty years ago - cool, dry, dark. We drank deeply from the new cup of knowledge of paper preservation, learned from other fields like rare documents, and wondered how it applies to comics. Remember all those charts that started coming out in the late 70's and really proliferated in the 80's and beyond about the physical aging of pulp paper, the acid content, the effects of UV, and so on? Now, on almost a yearly basis it seems, the best copies of the most important books in our hobby are subjected to a barbarism of manipulation. Does anyone seriously believe this does not have a deleterious, long-term effect on the books, especially pressing?? Aging them beyond their years just to squeeze every last cent out of the book? And, on some level, I get it. These practices mean the price difference between a shiny new car or college for all three kids. Or even a summer house, in the more extreme cases. The auction houses are in on it, the grading companies seem complicit, and I believe too many of us tacitly encourage it. In the rearview mirror, the purple label proved a great deterrent to this unseemly practice. Now, that barrier seems at least as circumnavigated as the Maginot Line. 

This is the best summery of this issue and the best post I have read this year..not only do I agree with you 110%..this manipulation of changing permissible blue label "get away with" it restoration will lead to rejection of the CGC grade itself..or grade and color dilution of credibility of the blue label itself and the CGC. Greed could get the best of us here......

[Mmehdy]

3 hours ago, buttock said:

Let me play a little devil's advocate.  Before CGC you'd often look at a book like this -- prior to it being pressed -- and you'd say clearly that it was nicer than the technical grade.  One thing this discussion has fleshed out is that when comparing these 3 books, the one that's currently a 9.4 was the nicest of the three prior to any manipulation.  25 years ago if you put all 3 out in front of someone and asked them to grade them you'd get a clear hierarchy, but you wouldn't have needed to press out NCB wear to do so -- that would be factored into the grade.  At current you now have a grading company that has decided to make that NCB wear a greater part of the technical grade.  As a consequence of this, in order for the grades on the label to accurately reflect the degree of niceness of these books, you have to monkey with them.  (and let's be fair, pressing likely has zero consequence on the lifespan of the paper)  So all of this to say, that (as least as we're hearing in this thread) CGC actually got the hierarchy of the books right, which should be applauded.  It's just the way that the rules were defined that sits so poorly.  

Taking this a little further, if we wanted CGC to ignore that NCB wear and not factor it into the grade, then you'd get on a slippery slope where a 5 mm thumbnail crease is factored the same as a book length NCB reading bend.  I don't think any of us would be happy with that scenario either.  

But the take home message is that the books appear to have been sorted out accurately by grade, which means that the system actually worked.  

So bottom line is, pressable wear is a factor in grading.  CGC has to take it into account.  The only way to not have it taken into account is a) to not have books certified or b) press it out.  If anyone has any 7 figure books that they're willing to leave that money on the table on principle, then please reach out to me first before selling.  Going forward I just ask that anyone who is going to have a big book graded just have its potential maximized before ever getting it certified so that we no longer have to have these conversations.  

Using restoration and "getting away with it" before, during or after the grading process misses the real issue here. What true GA/SA comic book collectors are objecting to it changing something from its ORIGINAL condition or modifying it..of course adding additional profit on the CGC reward system grading scale. Why should a 8.0 Action #1 become a 9.0 highest value comic book over a "true" and UNRESTORED , unpressed 8.5 That is unfair putting it mildly  . This is grade and greed madness and not motived by the real issue here. The true comic book collector in reality what to purchase the GA/SA comic book in ORIGINAL CONDITION...just like in coins if you cleaned them, it decreased the value. That is why we have a purple label to begin wtith...I do not buy in to you  theory as to timing before labeling or grading  to eliminate conversations as to what is right and wrong in this collecting world. Why have a purple label at all, if these grade manipulations are allowed, encouraged and rewarded  which change the  original appearance and grade of the GA book..where does that leave us in the end?... Should CGC create another label saying " Original "Answer please.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Mmehdy

[buttock]

20 minutes ago, Mmehdy said:

Using restoration and "getting away with it" before, during or after the grading process misses the real issue here. What true GA/SA comic book collectors are objecting to it changing something from its ORIGINAL condition or modifying it..of course adding additional profit on the CGC reward system grading scale. Why should a 8.0 Action #1 become a 9.0 highest value comic book over a "true" and UNRESTORED , unpressed 8.5 That is unfair putting it mildly  . This is grade and greed madness and not motived by the real issue here. The true comic book collector in reality what to purchase the GA/SA comic book in ORIGINAL CONDITION...just like in coins if you cleaned them, it decreased the value. That is why we have a purple label to begin wtith...I do not buy in to you  theory as to timing before labeling or grading  to eliminate conversations as to what is right and wrong in this collecting world. Why have a purple label at all, if these grade manipulations are allowed, encouraged and rewarded  which change the  original appearance and grade of the GA book..where does that leave us in the end?... Should CGC create another label saying " Original "Answer please.

There are 2 Action 1 9.0s.  One was formerly an 8.0, and it's by far the nicer of the two.  The issue is that the CGC grade isn't the be-all arbiter of which copy is truly the nicest in a collector's eyes.  A CGC grade is a shortcut to try and give someone an idea of what a book looks like using a number.  Obviously that's going to have inadequacies.  And obviously it's a system that has flaws that people can take advantage of.  The error you're making is in giving WAY more power and credence to that simple number.  As virtually every other seasoned collector is aware, you judge the book on its own merit beyond the number on the label.  In this world of information, none of this is a secret, it took the boards a few hours to identify this book's history.  The sooner you can lose the hangup on the label number, the sooner you'll be able to move on.  It's nothing more than an opinion.  
 

Oh, and should CGC make an "original " label?  No.  That's a ridiculous idea.  Just no.

[waaaghboss]

15 minutes ago, buttock said:

There are 2 Action 1 9.0s.  One was formerly an 8.0, and it's by far the nicer of the two.  The issue is that the CGC grade isn't the be-all arbiter of which copy is truly the nicest in a collector's eyes.  A CGC grade is a shortcut to try and give someone an idea of what a book looks like using a number.  Obviously that's going to have inadequacies.  And obviously it's a system that has flaws that people can take advantage of.  The error you're making is in giving WAY more power and credence to that simple number.  As virtually every other seasoned collector is aware, you judge the book on its own merit beyond the number on the label.  In this world of information, none of this is a secret, it took the boards a few hours to identify this book's history.  The sooner you can lose the hangup on the label number, the sooner you'll be able to move on.  It's nothing more than an opinion.  
 

Oh, and should CGC make an "original " label?  No.  That's a ridiculous idea.  Just no.

I don't think "everyone knows a books history" is a good argument to not disclose that these books have been doctored.  buttock made a good point.  Many collectors want unrestored/pressed/squeezed/heat lamped original GA books.  If people chasing a higher CGC number to squeeze more money are doing practices that, again, in my opinion are on the same level as color touch, this should be noted and disclosed in the grading process, or the grading processes is worthless.   People are trying to judge the books on their merits, but it's sometimes difficult to do through a CGC case to know whether or not the book took a detour through restoville.

[Mmehdy]

39 minutes ago, buttock said:

There are 2 Action 1 9.0s.  One was formerly an 8.0, and it's by far the nicer of the two.  The issue is that the CGC grade isn't the be-all arbiter of which copy is truly the nicest in a collector's eyes.  A CGC grade is a shortcut to try and give someone an idea of what a book looks like using a number.  Obviously that's going to have inadequacies.  And obviously it's a system that has flaws that people can take advantage of.  The error you're making is in giving WAY more power and credence to that simple number.  As virtually every other seasoned collector is aware, you judge the book on its own merit beyond the number on the label.  In this world of information, none of this is a secret, it took the boards a few hours to identify this book's history.  The sooner you can lose the hangup on the label number, the sooner you'll be able to move on.  It's nothing more than an opinion.  
 

Oh, and should CGC make an "original " label?  No.  That's a ridiculous idea.  Just no.

How about disclosure on the label that the book as been permissibly restored or altered..that would be a way of saying its not original...I agree with waaghboss the grading label should disclose it if known...

[LDarkseid1]

42 minutes ago, waaaghboss said:

I don't think "everyone knows a books history" is a good argument to not disclose that these books have been doctored.  buttock made a good point.  Many collectors want unrestored/pressed/squeezed/heat lamped original GA books.  If people chasing a higher CGC number to squeeze more money are doing practices that, again, in my opinion are on the same level as color touch, this should be noted and disclosed in the grading process, or the grading processes is worthless.   People are trying to judge the books on their merits, but it's sometimes difficult to do through a CGC case to know whether or not the book took a detour through restoville.

But how is pressing and dry cleaning, neither of which alter the book in any way whatsoever, just enhance it, comparable to color touch? CT which adds actual substances to the book that were not original to it.

Edited December 5, 2020 by LDarkseid1