Batman 1 CGC 9.4!!!! 6 6

[tth2]

5 hours ago, buttock said:

14 hours ago, tth2 said:

There's a reason so many collectors have moved into OA over the past decade.

Ah yes, original art, where nothing shady ever happens. 

Typical strawman argument.  Just because something's not perfect doesn't mean it's not better.

[LDarkseid1]

2 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

Pressing and dry cleaning DO alter books.  If they didn't, no one would have it done...

Ok fair enough, they do “alter” the book, in the sense they enhance it while still keeping it in its original form. The general forms of restoration however alter the book from its original form: chemically cleaning, color touch, adding pieces, etc... Still a big difference to me.

[tth2]

Anyways Dan (and Arnie), you can relax.  The battle has long been over, as I mentioned early on in this thread.  The surprise in this thread over pressing is so 2005. 

You guys won and absolutely routed the opposition a decade ago.  So no need to quickly tamp out any new expression of outrage from someone who's just recently discovered the rampant cracking, resubbing and pressing in this hobby.  It only makes it look like you're trying to hide something. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by tth2

[tth2]

2 minutes ago, LDarkseid1 said:

2 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

Pressing and dry cleaning DO alter books.  If they didn't, no one would have it done...

Ok fair enough, they do “alter” the book, in the sense they enhance it while still keeping it in its original form. The general forms of restoration however alter the book from its original form: chemically cleaning, color touch, adding pieces, etc... Still a big difference to me.

Actually, with professional restoration, all those "alterations" apparently can be reversed.  The color touch can be scraped off, the added pieces can be removed.

As far as I know, pressing can't be reversed.  Once pressed out, those NCBs are permanently gone.   

[LDarkseid1]

2 minutes ago, tth2 said:

Actually, with professional restoration, all those "alterations" apparently can be reversed.  The color touch can be scraped off, the added pieces can be removed.

As far as I know, pressing can't be reversed.  Once pressed out, those NCBs are permanently gone.   

Yeah that’s true there is restoration removal, but once again pressing and dry cleaning don’t add anything to the book. So still different from the normal forms of professional resto. However chemically cleaning of course can’t be reversed.

Edited December 6, 2020 by LDarkseid1

[buttock]

40 minutes ago, tth2 said:

Typical strawman argument.  Just because something's not perfect doesn't mean it's not better.

That's not a straw man argument.  

[PopKulture]

34 minutes ago, tth2 said:

The battle has long been over, as I mentioned early on in this thread.  The surprise in this thread over pressing is so 2005. 

You guys won and absolutely routed the opposition a decade ago.  So no need to quickly tamp out any new expression of outrage from someone who's just recently discovered the rampant cracking, resubbing and pressing in this hobby.  

Well, in fairness, this is my first public foray, dipping my toes into the tumultuous and treacherous sea of this long settled orthodoxy, so there's that!  

And I wasn't here for the Great Tamping of 2005, so as a reinforcement for the minority, I am woefully late in arrival and equally under-armed in resolve.  

But, that having been stated for the record, I will honor my family's good name and humbly accept my flogging with dignity and resignation. 

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, buttock said:

15 hours ago, tth2 said:

There's a reason so many collectors have moved into OA over the past decade.

Ah yes, original art, where nothing shady ever happens. 

Yes indeed, as I believe some collectors have said that the OA market is just as bad as the comic book market, if not possibly even worse.  

[pemart1966]

55 minutes ago, tth2 said:

Actually, with professional restoration, all those "alterations" apparently can be reversed.  The color touch can be scraped off, the added pieces can be removed.

As far as I know, pressing can't be reversed.  Once pressed out, those NCBs are permanently gone.   

All of which take a toll on the book.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

[lou_fine]

23 hours ago, LDarkseid1 said:

On 12/4/2020 at 7:03 PM, Wayne-Tec said:

I still can’t get over how amazing this book is.

Ditto

I am getting lost in this big maze of books here. 

Exactly what book are we talking about here?  Is it this absolutely unimprovable amazing copy here:  

[waaaghboss]

31 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Yes indeed, as I believe some collectors have said that the OA market is just as bad as the comic book market, if not possibly even worse.  

Imagine if CGC started grading original art 

[LDarkseid1]

15 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

I am getting lost in this big maze of books here. 

Exactly what book are we talking about here?  Is it this absolutely unimprovable amazing copy here:  

But it was this copy and it was clearly improved. Most if not all of that dirt residue and smudges were dry cleaned off.

Edited December 6, 2020 by LDarkseid1

[lou_fine]

13 hours ago, buttock said:

At current you now have a grading company that has decided to make that NCB wear a greater part of the technical grade.  As a consequence of this, in order for the grades on the label to accurately reflect the degree of niceness of these books, you have to monkey with them.  (and let's be fair, pressing likely has zero consequence on the lifespan of the paper)  So all of this to say, that (as least as we're hearing in this thread) CGC actually got the hierarchy of the books right, which should be applauded.  It's just the way that the rules grading standards were defined redefined or monkeyed around with that sits so poorly.  

My concern is that with the current grading regime in place, they have seemingly made near invisible NCB not only a greater part of the technical grade, but possibly the biggest part of the technical grade.  Needless to say, this is being done for very obvious reasons.  

To reinforce this new grading or business strategy, it would appear that any defects that might inadvertently occur during this maximization of potential process has now moved much further down their Hit Parade when it comes to grading defects, as stated by other board members here before in the past also:  

6 hours ago, RareHighGrade said:

Many of the best books were pressed between the two auctions and the adverse consequences are evident.  Even though some of the books went up in grade, their spines were damaged, in some cases with spine splitting or loss of very small paper chips.

Even after the pressing, the BW books are still very nice, but they originally were nicer.

Yes, originally nicer but with lower grades, and now not as nice with possibly other types of more visible defects but with a higher grade.  

[bluechip]

4 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

Pressing and dry cleaning DO alter books.  If they didn't, no one would have it done...

If you open a book to read it, you alter it and then you alter it again when you close it -- "restoring" it to its original state.  If dust or crumbs gather on your book and you brush them off, you have restored it by cleaning it.  If you bend the corner too much reading it and then bend it back again, you've restored it.  Same thing if you put a weight on the book to flatten the bend by "pressing" it.  But if you just put the book at the bottom of a stack of books for no particular reason, the same alteration will occur without it being "restoration" because you didn't put it there with the intent of flattening it.  If somebody put a dot of black ink in a worn spot on a black field of the book, he's restored it.  But if somebody then scribbles in black ink over the same book while drawing a mustache on the face of the hero, inadvertently going over the same spot that was restored, the book may escape being labeled as restored because the mustache hides the restoration under new marks that clearly were made without the intent of restoring the book.   

Edited December 6, 2020 by bluechip

[SkyJuice]

Perhaps the book was stored high up in Himalayas.

[Gotham Kid]

4 hours ago, lou_fine said:

10 hours ago, buttock said:

19 hours ago, tth2 said:

There's a reason so many collectors have moved into OA over the past decade.

Ah yes, original art, where nothing shady ever happens. 

Yes indeed, as I believe some collectors have said that the OA market is just as bad as the comic book market, if not possibly even worse.  

Can you share some examples ?

Edited December 6, 2020 by Gotham Kid

[Aman619]

While there is undisclosed work done to OA, the larger issue over there is that the market is closely controlled by a small group, and they protect the market thru price protection.  Generally speaking, that’s the issue.  Other will chime in with more details if they wish.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

4 hours ago, Aman619 said:

While there is undisclosed work done to OA, the larger issue over there is that the market is closely controlled by a small group, and they protect the market thru price protection.  Generally speaking, that’s the issue.  Other will chime in with more details if they wish.

Good thing that particular bug never bit me. I’ll never have to know. Still, it would be interesting to know which one of my friends here is doing all the controlling. But don’t tell me who; we can agree to this shadowy cabal as “those whose names shall not be spoken”

[tth2]

5 hours ago, Aman619 said:

While there is undisclosed work done to OA, the larger issue over there is that the market is closely controlled by a small group, and they protect the market thru price protection.  Generally speaking, that’s the issue.  Other will chime in with more details if they wish.

Price protection and price manipulation are hardly unknown in comics, but in any event it's a completely different issue from alteration of the item itself, which is what we're talking about here.