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BeatleBlueCat DEFRAUDING BUYERS with Massive SHILL BIDDING and Same old "Buy CGC graded 7.5, crack and sell as raw "NM" scam
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Started by James J Johnson,

1,200 posts in this topic

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comicginger1789

comicginger1789

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So I messaged this seller and asked why he wasn’t letting buyers know what it used to be graded. He replied politely that he pressed it and thought it looked much better. A couple of other cordial messages went back and forth before I presented the evidence that he photoshops his pictures.

the immediate response was a reply littered with profanities, telling me to eff off and that I had nothing better to do. From civil to completely off the rails. That shift in response tells me that he/she is definitely a shady sunnuvagun.

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Conali

Conali

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Just thought I’d throw some more anecdotal evidence on this dumpster fire, so to speak.  I purchased an X-Men 12 & 13 from beatle about 5 months ago on eBay.  They were both listed as vf/nm at the time.  Looking at the images I knew there was no way that was the case, but bid on them at what I thought they would turn out as (probably in the f/vf range).  I ended up, surprisingly, winning both auctions and submitted the X-men 12 to CGC after a pressing from Joe, and it came back universal 7.5.  So at a minimum, in my case at least, he over graded by 1.5 points.  I ended up making out well in the deal, but one should never bid on eBay due to the subject line.  And even with pics, bid a half grade level minimum below what they think it is, minimum.  Some people can’t help themselves though, I suppose.  A fool and his money make a lot of unethical people a lot of money.

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shadroch

shadroch

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Posted
20 minutes ago, Conali said:

Just thought I’d throw some more anecdotal evidence on this dumpster fire, so to speak.  I purchased an X-Men 12 & 13 from beatle about 5 months ago on eBay.  They were both listed as vf/nm at the time.  Looking at the images I knew there was no way that was the case, but bid on them at what I thought they would turn out as (probably in the f/vf range).  I ended up, surprisingly, winning both auctions and submitted the X-men 12 to CGC after a pressing from Joe, and it came back universal 7.5.  So at a minimum, in my case at least, he over graded by 1.5 points.  I ended up making out well in the deal, but one should never bid on eBay due to the subject line.  And even with pics, bid a half grade level minimum below what they think it is, minimum.  Some people can’t help themselves though, I suppose.  A fool and his money make a lot of unethical people a lot of money.

So you used your own knowledge, bid accordingly and ended up happy with the deal you got. 

Sounds like a perfectly horrible experience.  

The OP has managed to find the one seller on ebay who overgrades and over-hypes his goods. Thank god, now ebay will be safe. Now that the seller has been exposed to about a half percent of his audience, I'm sure he will change his ways. Let's do a follow-up in sixty days and see how this affects his sales.

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Conali

Conali

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Not as happy as I would have been if they had graded at 9.0 like he claimed though, lol... There are plenty of times listings like this don’t work out for people.  Threads like this help out those who may get burned.

I certainly don’t condone the actions of beatle.  A lot of inexperienced buyers (myself included, at least initially, getting better!) may get turned off to the hobby if their first few transactions are with disreputable sellers.  

Bringing attention to those sellers is really the only way to deter those buyers (not going to stop the seller) from making those mistakes.  To that, I say well done James.

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alexgross.com

alexgross.com

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this is why companies like CGC exist, so people dont have to judge the honesty of sellers online and assess the quality of books from easily doctored pictures. simply do not buy high grade raw books on feebay and you won't have to deal with this #%$@. buy graded books. @comicginger1789 i appreciate your work singling this guy out, but there are endless numbers of this type of scammer out there. it will be an endless battle if this is how you want to spend time.

everyone just repeat after me: don't buy raw books on feebay, don't buy raw books on feebay, don't buy raw books on feebay.

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comicginger1789

comicginger1789

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19 minutes ago, www.alexgross.com said:

this is why companies like CGC exist, so people dont have to judge the honesty of sellers online and assess the quality of books from easily doctored pictures. simply do not buy high grade raw books on feebay and you won't have to deal with this #%$@. buy graded books. @comicginger1789 i appreciate your work singling this guy out, but there are endless numbers of this type of scammer out there. it will be an endless battle if this is how you want to spend time.

everyone just repeat after me: don't buy raw books on feebay, don't buy raw books on feebay, don't buy raw books on feebay.

Oh I’m not wasting any more time than needed. But I will gladly make him feel uncomfortable. Nothing will happen. But I’ve said and done something. I can move along now and feel I did the right thing. A few more people know now and maybe that’s one less person affected by this seller which is a positive.

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Tedsaid

Tedsaid

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, www.alexgross.com said:

 @comicginger1789 i appreciate your work singling this guy out, but there are endless numbers of this type of scammer out there. it will be an endless battle if this is how you want to spend time.

There are scammers out there, but it actually helps a surprising amount, to find one and drill down and push back on the scams.  It seems hopeless, but with persistent effort, even just a small amount, it makes a real difference.

Let me give an example in another domain.  I collect Lego sets, as well as comics, and sometimes I sell them on eBay, too.  I had a couple sets that I wanted to sell, three or four copies of each, all hard to find in the US.  But with Lego, there are a LOT of posts with fake Lego sets.  A lot of websites, too.  Some companies, especially in Asia, manufacture fake Lego bricks and copy expensive sets exactly, offering them for sale for about 1/3 the price (hundreds of dollars cheaper).

Some of these sellers on eBay are more honest - stating up front that their wares are "Lego-compatible" instead of true Lego.  Others are much less honest, even using pictures of Lego in their scams.  FYI, the patent on Lego bricks has expired, so making "fake" Lego is actually legal.  What is NOT legal is advertising them on eBay to make them look like Lego; or using Lego pictures; or even copying Lego designs and sets, which are new copyrights/patents.  Also, many sets - like Harry Potter or Star Wars - are not licensed to the fake-brick companies, so it is illegal twice over.

Anyway, these fake sets were making it hard for me to sell the real ones.  So, I spent a couple days reporting every instance I saw, for the fly-by-night sellers and their ads.  I didn't think it would help, in the sea of fake Lego on eBay, but I tried it anyway.

And it worked!  Within a week I noticed most, if not all, of the fake sets advertised for the two sets I concentrated on were gone.  And they stayed gone!  Weeks later I looked again, thinking they would re-appear, and they had not.  In fact, I just looked again now, months later, and the fake sellers are still gone.  (They still come up on Google searches, and they advertise on Facebook, but that's another problem.  On eBay, they are gone.)

So it does help, even if it sometimes seems hopeless, and that these scam artists have endless resources.  They don't.  It REALLY cuts into their bottom line to get called out, found out, reported to eBay, etc.  The bad sellers just slowly lose buyers, and slowly see their auctions with fewer and fewer bidders.  And returns increase, and patterns emerge.  eBay notes these patterns, too, and they will act when enough evidence accumulates. 

One doesn't know what will tip the scales, but the scales will tip eventually.  And doesn't it feel good, knowing that people like Beatlebluecat have to work harder and harder to pull the same old scams?

Edited by Tedsaid
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manetteska

manetteska

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13 hours ago, Tedsaid said:

Oh, it was worse than that.  After I brought up the issue with the X-Men #101 grade, I said, "Obviously, a 7.0 is a large discrepancy from the 9.2 advertised. How would you like to handle this?"

The subsequent conversation:

beatlebluecat: "Hi, I can't guarantee grades from CGC."

Me: "Sure, but you can get close, right? I mean, what else are you talking about, when you advertise a comic as a 9.2?"

beatlebluecat: "It looked better than a 7.0 when I had it."

Me: "Well, it did to me, too, certainly. It sounds like the stain and the rusty staples - which weren't disclosed in the ad - are what really brought down the grade. Did I already send you the grader's notes? I think I did. I'm sorry this happened. I know it's a real bummer - it sure is for me. [..edited for brevity..]  Let's call it $300, okay? How does that sound?"

beatlebluecat: "I think the guy you sent to get it pressed and cleaned switched the book."

Me: "I will ask. The book will arrive tomorrow also, and I will be able to compare to the pictures. If it isn't the same book it will be pretty obvious.  And if it is the same book?"

beatlebluecat: "It matters not. You had it altered and you bought it six months ago. It didn’t look like it needed to be pressed or cleaned when I had it." [Note: it was less than five months, not six]

Me: "I didn't have it altered. Cleaning and pressing is a standard - very standard - procedure to improve the structure and quality of a comic, using non-restorative techniques. There is no way cleaning and pressing could introduce rust in the staples, or stains to the cover. Are you disputing this? Cleaning and pressing also can not remove rust or stains. Which is why they were still on the comic, according to CGC.

I will also check with CGC, once I have the comic back and can examine it. It is possible they made an input / labeling error.

If everything checks out, and it turns out you accidentally sold me a 7.0 comic that you thought was a 9.2, will you try to make it right?"

beatlebluecat: "No, I would have refunded within 30 days not 6 months later after you altered the merchandise"

 

And obviously the conversation ended there, with a hard "no" on any attempt to make it right.  It was at this point that I opened a case with eBay.

My favorite is the part where he says the presser swapped out the books. 

 

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manetteska

manetteska

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1 hour ago, shadroch said:

So you used your own knowledge, bid accordingly and ended up happy with the deal you got. 

Sounds like a perfectly horrible experience.  

The OP has managed to find the one seller on ebay who overgrades and over-hypes his goods. Thank god, now ebay will be safe. Now that the seller has been exposed to about a half percent of his audience, I'm sure he will change his ways. Let's do a follow-up in sixty days and see how this affects his sales.

The OP found a seller (actually a few at this point) knowingly scamming comic buyers on eBay. Sellers like this not only take away sales from reputable sellers but also bring the hobby down as (some) buyers will figure it out and feel fleeced (and may limit their comic spending and/or interest). 

No one can catch them all but does that mean they shouldn’t be called out and potential buyers made aware? I don’t get your “not understanding” position on this. Not only are grades inflated but images are being altered. 

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shadroch

shadroch

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52 minutes ago, Tedsaid said:

There are scammers out there, but it actually helps a surprising amount, to find one and drill down and push back on the scams.  It seems hopeless, but with persistent effort, even just a small amount, it makes a real difference.

Let me give an example in another domain.  I collect Lego sets, as well as comics, and sometimes I sell them on eBay, too.  I had a couple sets that I wanted to sell, three or four copies of each, all hard to find in the US.  But with Lego, there are a LOT of posts with fake Lego sets.  A lot of websites, too.  Some companies, especially in Asia, manufacture fake Lego bricks and copy expensive sets exactly, offering them for sale for about 1/3 the price (hundreds of dollars cheaper).

Some of these sellers on eBay are more honest - stating up front that their wares are "Lego-compatible" instead of true Lego.  Others are much less honest, even using pictures of Lego in their scams.  FYI, the patent on Lego bricks has expired, so making "fake" Lego is actually legal.  What is NOT legal is advertising them on eBay to make them look like Lego; or using Lego pictures; or even copying Lego designs and sets, which are new copyrights/patents.  Also, many sets - like Harry Potter or Star Wars - are not licensed to the fake-brick companies, so it is illegal twice over.

Anyway, these fake sets were making it hard for me to sell the real ones.  So, I spent a couple days reporting every instance I saw, for the fly-by-night sellers and their ads.  I didn't think it would help, in the sea of fake Lego on eBay, but I tried it anyway.

And it worked!  Within a week I noticed most, if not all, of the fake sets advertised for the two sets I concentrated on were gone.  And they stayed gone!  Weeks later I looked again, thinking they would re-appear, and they had not.  In fact, I just looked again now, months later, and the fake sellers are still gone.  (They still come up on Google searches, and they advertise on Facebook, but that's another problem.  On eBay, they are gone.)

So it does help, even if it sometimes seems hopeless, and that these scam artists have endless resources.  They don't.  It REALLY cuts into their bottom line to get called out, found out, reported to eBay, etc.  The bad sellers just slowly lose buyers, and slowly see their auctions with fewer and fewer bidders.  And returns increase, and patterns emerge.  eBay notes these patterns, too, and they will act when enough evidence accumulates. 

One doesn't know what will tip the scales, but the scales will tip eventually.  And doesn't it feel good, knowing that people like Beatlebluecat have to work harder and harder to pull the same old scams?

That's a great story but you seem to be comparing a guy who overgrades to an industry that manufactures and sell counterfeit products.  

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Tedsaid

Tedsaid

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1 minute ago, shadroch said:

That's a great story but you seem to be comparing a guy who overgrades to an industry that manufactures and sell counterfeit products.  

LOL ... no, not just over grades.  Haven't you read the thread?  He over grades a LOT, books that he cracked out of slabs and knows the true grade.  He hides or fails to disclose key defects, such as stains or rust or restoration.  And again, he knows about these things from the previous grade/label.  He manipulates the images, including bleaching out the whites and scrubbing some of the defects.  And he lies about these things when asked directly.

You are right though, he doesn't actually manufacture fake comics.  The common thread is "scam" and "fake," not counterfeit. 

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D2

D2

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3 hours ago, Bighaley21 said:

I bought a restored Hulk 181 from this seller years ago from ebay. No mention of the color touch and the photo conveniently didnt show the one small area on the interior.

Accidentally/scammed with bought restored or knew you were buying a restored?

 

by your second half of your message, it sounds like a total scam. I am sorry if that’s the case. I’d be out for blood if that happened to me 

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