A Discussion About How CGC Label Non-US Publications Which Reprint / Reproduce Original US Comic Content 10 10

[OtherEric]

I'm firmly team "label the book what it actually is" as well, but that's not the way it's going.  And as someone who views slabs as a tool for knowing what in getting grade wise rather than an end to itself (I buy comics to read), I'm not the part of the market for the label anyway.

I hope this works well for the people who want it this way.  Thank you for leading the fight, @Get Marwood & I, but I'm stepping away from it from here on out so I don't drive myself crazy.  (Ok, crazier.  )

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/12/2022 at 6:20 PM, Axelrod said:

What CGC is currently doing is just a really poor way of labeling foreign editions.

Poor is a good choice of word, Axelrod.

Take a look at these two CGC slabbed books:

 

 

Both slabs are titled Brave and the Bold #28, both are labelled as the "1st appearance of the Justice League of America".

Look at the first book, by DC:

• If I said to you that book was called Brave and the Bold, you couldn't question it, because it is.
• If I said to you it was number 28, you couldn't question it, because it is.
• If I said to you it was the first appearance of the Justice League, you couldn't question it, because it is.
• If I told you I was going to file it against the census record of DC's Brave and the Bold, you couldn't question it, because it's the only logical place for it.

Now look at the Editora Brasil-America book, printed eight years later:

• If I said to you that book was called Brave and the Bold, you could question it, because it is called Os Justiceiros.
• If I said to you it was number 28, you could question it, because it is number 12.
• If I said to you it was the first appearance of the Justice League, you could question it, because it is isn't - DC's Brave and the Bold #28 printed 8 years earlier is.
• If I told you "Ah, but it's the first appearance of the Justice League in Brasil", you could say "Great. Well say that then", and I'd ignore you.
• If I told you I was going to file it against the census record of #28 of DC's Brave and the Bold, you could question it, because it belongs against the record of Editora Brasil-America's Os Justiceiros #12.

So CGC have created all those issues, just to get across that the subsequent international book shares the same cover as BATB #28. All they had to do was add a label note to that effect, and add the words "in Brasil" after the first appearance label designation. That's all they had to do.

The shame of it all, is that these 'international' books are FANTASTIC! And instead of praising them and gushing over how FANTASTIC they are, we're all here scratching our heads over a non-factual, inaccurate, misleading and wildly over engineered recording strategy.

 

[Axelrod]

On 10/12/2022 at 2:38 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Poor is a good choice of word, Axelrod.

Take a look at these two CGC slabbed books:

 

 

 

Both books are titled Brave and the Bold #28, both are labelled as the "1st appearance of the Justice League of America".

Look at the first book, by DC:

• If I said to you that book was called Brave and the Bold, you couldn't question it, because it is.
• If I said to you it was number 28, you couldn't question it, because it is.
• If I said to you it was the first appearance of the Justice League, you couldn't question it, because it is.
• If I told you I was going to file it against the census record of DC's Brave and the Bold, you couldn't question it, because it's the only logical place for it.

Now look at the Editora Brasil-America book, printed eight years later:

• If I said to you that book was called Brave and the Bold, you could question it, because it is called Os Justiceiros.
• If I said to you it was number 28, you could question it, because it is number 12.
• If I said to you it was the first appearance of the Justice League, you could question it, because it is isn't - DC's Brave and the Bold #28 printed 8 years earlier is.
• If I told you "Ah, but it's the first appearance of the Justice League in Brasil, you could say "Great. Well say that then". But they won't.
• If I told you I was going to file it against the census record of #28 of DC's Brave and the Bold, you could question it, because it belongs against the record of Editora Brasil-America's Os Justiceiros #12.

So CGC have created all those issues, just to get across that the reprinted international book shares the same cover as BATB #28. All they had to do was add a label note to that effect, and add the words "in Brasil" after the first appearance label designation. That's all they had to do.

The shame of it all, is that these 'international' books are FANTASTIC! And instead of praising them and gushing over how FANTASTIC they are, we're all here scratching our heads over a non-factual, inaccurate, misleading and wildly over engineered recording strategy.

 

And in this case it's not even the same cover!  Like, the art is different.  Similar is not "the same."

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/12/2022 at 7:41 PM, Axelrod said:

And in this case it's not even the same cover!  Like, the art is different.  Similar is not "the same."

And because of that similarity, and the labelling, someone will buy it, for little Timmy's birthday, thinking it's the first appearance. If the argument is "Oh come on, it's obvious that it isn't the US original" then that implies that all collectors are on the same page and have the same knowledge - which they clearly don't. And if it is obvious that it is a foreign reprint of BATB #28, why the need to make the US book the primary focus?

[CGC Mike]

Here is a note from web help:

The certification verification tool has a throttling mechanism programmed into it. This is in place to prevent people and bots from spamming the tool. The typical cool down is one hour; however, if the person continues to try and use the tool during the cool down, the time gets extended more and more. I spoke with the grading team regarding the census and the other question about the label 

 1) our census update has not happened yet, still in the works. When it goes live, it will reflect both US titles and Foreign titles.  

2) a customer cannot request the titles be flipped on the label.

[Aman619]

IF CGC LABELS start off with the American issue and number because collectors want an easy way to collect them, or group them, thats fine with me so long as the international Title and issue are also on the label for those who may be collecting THAT title or run.  But more important than which Title and Issue appears on the top line of the label is whether someone can SEARCH the CGC Census by the international title and issue too!  Id think the database can handle that:  Intl title/issues get a unique  ID (same as American issues currently do) but searches use a different datafield that has linked the American and Foreign issues to be found in same search ( the American ID#) .

Also a concern for clarity is that currently only those issues with matching covers get listed as American Title/Issue, while other get the foreign title/issue.  complicated.

I sort of agree that the first line should be the Foreign title and issue # and English speaking collectors should just learn the correct (now obscure) foreign Title and issue#s to see them out. (Like a new Spidey collector would never find Amazing Fantasy 15 if he just looked for "Spider-Man", but once he learned the correct titleIssue he wanted, no problem!)  But I say sort of because I see CGCs point in setting this up from an American-centric collecting viewpoint.

Down the road however it may have been a mistake as comics gets more worldwide than now.  And CGC will want to be a part of that growth too.

[AJD]

On 6/16/2022 at 5:07 AM, JGeezy87 said:

The US market is the ultimate end market as most people in other cointries didn't collect their own editions and prefer the american ones. They saw their own printings as lesser. So why cater to a market that doesn't care? 

As a keen collector of Australian reprints of US material, I beg to differ.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/13/2022 at 1:07 AM, CGC Mike said:

Here is a note from web help:

The certification verification tool has a throttling mechanism programmed into it. This is in place to prevent people and bots from spamming the tool. The typical cool down is one hour; however, if the person continues to try and use the tool during the cool down, the time gets extended more and more. I spoke with the grading team regarding the census and the other question about the label 

 1) our census update has not happened yet, still in the works. When it goes live, it will reflect both US titles and Foreign titles.  

2) a customer cannot request the titles be flipped on the label.

Thanks for the quick reply Mike

[Get Marwood & I]

So, two new things learned today.

First, if you submit a copy of Os Justiceiros #12, and want it slabbed as that, CGC will override your wish and label it as Brave and the Bold #28:

Ditto, presumably, any other non-US / international publication which meets their 'Foreign Edition' criteria. That seems a very counter-productive approach to me - dictating how a book will be labelled, especially when the labelling strategy itself is non-factually based and therefore liable to annoy a segment of the market. My reading of the situation is that there are more collectors who disagree with the strategy than are comfortable or indifferent to it. It's a reasonable assumption therefore that CGC's approach will actually put collectors off submitting.

The second learning point, for those interested, is that the census will be adapted at some point to "reflect both US titles and Foreign titles". Currently, I can only find a graded issue of Os Justiceiros in the census by searching the US book title that it shares a cover with. If I search Os Justiceiros, I get the following:

If I then search for Brave and the Bold...

...I get a list which includes the publisher of Os Justiceiros (Editora Brasil-America):

 

Here is the single entry against it:

There will be other entries against the US titles of any other issues of Os Justiceiros which meet the 'Foreign Edition' criteria - Justice League of America #1 for example - but for the time being, searching these books will be difficult. It will be interesting to see what changes CGC make to the census to allow the books to be amalgamated in title groups, and searchable by the non-US titles. And will the exercise be back-dated, I wonder?

When that update will come is anyone's guess. The strategy has been live for coming up to two years now and even the announcement, which was delayed many times, is now six months old. I guess we'll just have to watch this space....

[Get Marwood & I]

With everything said, I do give CGC some credit for at least attempting to slab non-US published books. Whilst I disagree profoundly with their strategy, I do believe their intentions to showcase the books are genuine. It's just a shame that the strategy clouds all the good intentions.

It can't be easy dealing with all the different languages though, can it, as the varying spelling attempts here illustrate:.

I'm fairly useless at geography and languages myself, but Google tells me that they speak Portuguese in Brasil/Brazil. According to one helpful site, the translation of Os Justiceiros, which CGC label as Brave and the Bold (well, issue #12 anyway), is as follows:

As if it wasn't all confusing enough...

[wardevil0]

On 10/13/2022 at 5:22 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

With everything said, I do give CGC some credit for at least attempting to slab non-US published books. Whilst I disagree profoundly with their strategy, I do believe their intentions to showcase the books are genuine. It's just a shame that strategy clouds all the good intentions.

It can't be easy dealing with all the different languages though, can it, as the varying spelling attempts here illustrate:.

I'm fairly useless at geography and languages myself, but Google tells me that they speak Portuguese in Brasil/Brazil. According to one helpful site, the translation of Os Justiceiros, which CGC label as Brave and the Bold (well, issue #12 anyway), is as follows:

As if it wasn't all confusing enough...

 And that's not even considering the variety of alphabets in the world.  I don't have to translate Os Justiceiros to retype it into the database, but where to even begin with Indonesian, Arabic, Korean, etc etc??  If you don't know how to recognize those characters you've really got nowhere to even start.

That being said, there was, is, and will be a dedicated fan base who could have provided some supportive input (at least as a starting point).  If I submit Die Spinne 95 (Condor, 1983) and say it has contents from Amazing Spider-Man 238 and Tales of Asgard 1, it should be relatively simple to check that with available resources.  I spent a lot of time cataloging international editions for Grand Comics Database.  You don't have to accept that at face value, but if you have my copy of Dan Defensor 1 (Ediciones Vertice, 1981) and GCD suggests it contains Daredevil 152, start there and verify it.  I think a lot of us would have contributed to the CGC notes database voluntarily, and it would just take a few positions of responsibility to verify it.  I think most of us would even agree to longer TATs under a "CGC Worldwide" process for non-US originating books.  Send in a well-known UK edition of Mighty World of Marvel and get it back fairly quickly.  Send in the fist confirmed Filipino National Book Store edition of Marvel Feature 3 and expect the label to indicate it includes the contents of US Marvel Feature 3 and the letter column from US X-Men 98, it may take a while.

I guess that's a long way to say grading international editions has been an enormous missed opportunity for every company that's tried it.  Maybe someday this niche will grow to a size that will justify the effort of a new labeling system and terminology...

[Kevin.J]

On 10/12/2022 at 7:38 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Poor is a good choice of word, Axelrod.

Take a look at these two CGC slabbed books:

 

 

Both slabs are titled Brave and the Bold #28, both are labelled as the "1st appearance of the Justice League of America".

Look at the first book, by DC:

• If I said to you that book was called Brave and the Bold, you couldn't question it, because it is.
• If I said to you it was number 28, you couldn't question it, because it is.
• If I said to you it was the first appearance of the Justice League, you couldn't question it, because it is.
• If I told you I was going to file it against the census record of DC's Brave and the Bold, you couldn't question it, because it's the only logical place for it.

Now look at the Editora Brasil-America book, printed eight years later:

• If I said to you that book was called Brave and the Bold, you could question it, because it is called Os Justiceiros.
• If I said to you it was number 28, you could question it, because it is number 12.
• If I said to you it was the first appearance of the Justice League, you could question it, because it is isn't - DC's Brave and the Bold #28 printed 8 years earlier is.
• If I told you "Ah, but it's the first appearance of the Justice League in Brasil", you could say "Great. Well say that then", and I'd ignore you.
• If I told you I was going to file it against the census record of #28 of DC's Brave and the Bold, you could question it, because it belongs against the record of Editora Brasil-America's Os Justiceiros #12.

So CGC have created all those issues, just to get across that the subsequent international book shares the same cover as BATB #28. All they had to do was add a label note to that effect, and add the words "in Brasil" after the first appearance label designation. That's all they had to do.

The shame of it all, is that these 'international' books are FANTASTIC! And instead of praising them and gushing over how FANTASTIC they are, we're all here scratching our heads over a non-factual, inaccurate, misleading and wildly over engineered recording strategy.

 

[Yorick]

On 10/12/2022 at 3:25 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

I thought Murray was an AUS printing.  I googlated it and wiki states AUS. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/13/2022 at 6:33 PM, Yorick said:

I thought Murray was an AUS printing.  I googlated it and wiki states AUS. 

Some of their books were distributed in the UK, often with a 6d price vs an 8d price where a home copy also existed. Example here:

 

[Yorick]

On 10/13/2022 at 10:42 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Some of their books were distributed in the UK, often with a 6d price vs an 8d price where a home copy also existed. 

But it was printed in Australia, right?  Isn't the 8d price the UK distributed version?  I thought we saw this in your World's Finest journal example.

OKAY!  6d was printed in Scotland.  Thank you. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Yorick
Accuracy

[Redshade]

On 10/13/2022 at 1:58 AM, Aman619 said:

Down the road however it may have been a mistake as comics gets more worldwide than now.  And CGC will want to be a part of that growth too.

Exactly. They have shot themselves in the foot here. Is it too late for them to change? I don't think so. Whether or not they want to change and acknowledge that the rest of the world exists is another matter.

[ADAMANTIUM]

Somehow I had posted a meme here for Halloween, which is because it was right above the comic memes thread and fat fingers

 

[AJD]

On 10/14/2022 at 4:45 AM, Yorick said:

But it was printed in Australia, right?  Isn't the 8d price the UK distributed version?  I thought we saw this in your World's Finest journal example.

OKAY!  6d was printed in Scotland.  Thank you. 

Which opens another metallic canister full of annelids. This is a reprint of US material printed in Scotland for an Australian publisher for sale in the UK. Since CGC lists by publisher rather than printer, how is this one categorised? (And do we know what the indicia says?)

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 10/12/2022 at 2:38 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Poor is a good choice of word, Axelrod.

Take a look at these two CGC slabbed books:

 

 

Both slabs are titled Brave and the Bold #28, both are labelled as the "1st appearance of the Justice League of America".

Look at the first book, by DC:

• If I said to you that book was called Brave and the Bold, you couldn't question it, because it is.
• If I said to you it was number 28, you couldn't question it, because it is.
• If I said to you it was the first appearance of the Justice League, you couldn't question it, because it is.
• If I told you I was going to file it against the census record of DC's Brave and the Bold, you couldn't question it, because it's the only logical place for it.

Now look at the Editora Brasil-America book, printed eight years later:

• If I said to you that book was called Brave and the Bold, you could question it, because it is called Os Justiceiros.
• If I said to you it was number 28, you could question it, because it is number 12.
• If I said to you it was the first appearance of the Justice League, you could question it, because it is isn't - DC's Brave and the Bold #28 printed 8 years earlier is.
• If I told you "Ah, but it's the first appearance of the Justice League in Brasil", you could say "Great. Well say that then", and I'd ignore you.
• If I told you I was going to file it against the census record of #28 of DC's Brave and the Bold, you could question it, because it belongs against the record of Editora Brasil-America's Os Justiceiros #12.

So CGC have created all those issues, just to get across that the subsequent international book shares the same cover as BATB #28. All they had to do was add a label note to that effect, and add the words "in Brasil" after the first appearance label designation. That's all they had to do.

The shame of it all, is that these 'international' books are FANTASTIC! And instead of praising them and gushing over how FANTASTIC they are, we're all here scratching our heads over a non-factual, inaccurate, misleading and wildly over engineered recording strategy.

 

What if I said to you that it shouldn't have gotten a 8.0, with that top edge?

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/29/2023 at 2:19 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

What if I said to you that it shouldn't have gotten a 8.0, with that top edge?

I'd say 'se perca, nós estamos no comando'