A Discussion About How CGC Label Non-US Publications Which Reprint / Reproduce Original US Comic Content 10 10

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 5/22/2022 at 2:02 PM, themagicrobot said:

£1495.00 is still too much. But he does say "or best offer" so I've offered him £7.99. However an unslabbed Mystic 40 sold for £300 just this week. I feel like I'm currently inhabiting some alternate universe where everything is familiar but slightly "wrong" somehow... a feeling I get especially when I visit this place. What was the print run for an individual issue of one of Len Millers comics? 10,000 seems on the generous side to me. If so after production/distribution costs he would have made far less in 1963 for every issue of Mystic 40 than a single copy sold for in May 2022?!? 

ah snap, glad I didn't have it  I had just awoke this morning and only looked at the label haha

So I assume it is a reprint?

 

[Get Marwood & I]

[Get Marwood & I]

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 5/22/2022 at 2:23 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

[themagicrobot]

So how do you think this would get treated by the CGC "experts". Does size matter? Would it be classed as Amazing Spider-Man 25 despite the artwork being reversed (why??), recoloured AND the title moved??

 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by themagicrobot

[Redshade]

On 5/28/2022 at 7:10 PM, themagicrobot said:

So how do you think this would get treated by the CGC "experts". Does size matter? Would it be classed as Amazing Spider-Man 25 despite the artwork being reversed (why??), recoloured AND the title moved??

 

 

Stop teasing the poor souls Robot, they're all American at CGC, the rest of the world doesn't exist.
Why isn't it as obvious to them as it is to us?

Title.           Spider-Man Pocket Book.

Year         1981.
Issue.         17.

Publisher    Marvel UK Ltd. (Part of the Marvel Digest series).

Country.      UK.

And a new line to include source material.

Simple really,

I know we are all repeating ourselves here but no matter how tedious it gets let's keep banging away until someone listens.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Redshade

[themagicrobot]

Yeah I just wanted to re activate this thread. Especially since other changes are happening to put even more people off slabbing comics.

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by themagicrobot

[Redshade]

On 5/28/2022 at 8:00 PM, themagicrobot said:

Yeah I just wanted to re activate this thread. Especially since other changes are happening to put even more people off slabbing comics.

 

For my own part I don't mind clearing up the label, just the basics as outlined above would be fine for me.
As long as everyone has access to graders notes I don't see a problem.
All the onfo could be accessed by a barcode or QR code on the rear label.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Redshade

[JGeezy87]

On 5/17/2022 at 11:07 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Where do you stand on labelling international books in line with reproduced US title and issue numbers, JG?

I'm fine with them labeling them as their US counterpart & issue number. They need to get heavy on the notes though. If its cover only it needs to state that. If it has different stories inside than the US counterpart they need to label that. If key stories are inside those need labeled. Magazine department is horrendous at that. Submitted a bunch of golden age foreigns with notes about key interior stories and nada on the label. If it's a unique cover label it as it is called in its foreign language. The US market is the ultimate end market as most people in other cointries didn't collect their own editions and prefer the american ones. They saw their own printings as lesser. So why cater to a market that doesn't care? 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/15/2022 at 8:07 PM, JGeezy87 said:

The US market is the ultimate end market as most people in other cointries didn't collect their own editions and prefer the american ones. They saw their own printings as lesser. So why cater to a market that doesn't care? 

That may have been true in the past JG, but not now. Collector interest in Price Variants - UK especially - has never been higher and international books now seem to be heading in the same direction. Along with a few others, I've battled hard to get UKPVs the recognition and status that they deserve. Before settling on the term UK Price Variant, CGC, you may recall, used to label them as 'UK Editions', the same way as they did UK produced reprint titles. That thankfully changed, but due to CGC's clouded thinking and recent announcements on 'internationals', many uneducated collectors will now again see those two separate groups - price variants and internationals - as the same thing. So it's a step backwards for me in that respect.

As for the international books themselves, respectfully, I'll never understand why clearly passionate, educated collectors like you don't care about the labelling approach CGC are taking on them, or how you can bear to see them relegate the books you love to mere reflections of the original books that they reproduce, to whatever degree. 

Maybe I'll see you in another month's time, to continue the discussion!

[Get Marwood & I]

@CGC Mike

Mike, on the CGC main page there is a gallery of about 200 of the International Books that CGC have graded:

https://www.cgccomics.com/gallery/international-comics/?page=1

I don't know if I'm doing something wrong, but I can't find any of them using / on:

1. The CGC Verification tool
2. The Census

Here is one example - I've tried a few of the books at random, all with the same results:

 

Verification Tool:

 

Census Records (both possibilities showing no CGC 5.0's recorded):

 

Thanks

[CGC Mike]

On 10/12/2022 at 6:25 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

@CGC Mike

Mike, on the CGC main page there is a gallery of about 200 of the International Books that CGC have graded:

https://www.cgccomics.com/gallery/international-comics/?page=1

I don't know if I'm doing something wrong, but I can't find any of them on:

I'll check into this, Steve

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/12/2022 at 12:40 PM, CGC Mike said:

I'll check into this, Steve

Ta

[CGC Mike]

On 10/12/2022 at 6:25 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Here is one example - I've tried a few of the books at random, all with the same results:

So, this example has not been shipped yet.  That is why it isn't showing up in the census.  

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/12/2022 at 2:32 PM, CGC Mike said:

So, this example has not been shipped yet.  That is why it isn't showing up in the census.  

OK, thanks. So presumably all the 200+ books that were used to promote the International Grading announcement way back in May have yet to ship to their owner(s). 

Can you check what the parameters are on the Verification Tool please, Mike?

It seems to limit you to a small number of searches:

Any idea what the limits are, and what constitutes 'later'?

[Get Marwood & I]

A quick recap - on the CGC 'International Comics' page....

https://www.cgccomics.com/international-comics/

...CGC illustrate how they classify International Books into three categories as follows:

"How CGC Classifies International Comic Books - Classification of international comics is mainly determined by the cover, and can fall into one of three categories: Unique Editions, Foreign Editions and Price Variants."

My objection to the addition of Price Variants under this umbrella of books is well documented in this thread, as is my assertion that it is disrespectful to label International (non-US) publications with the headline details of the original US publication where they share a key cover. I've also registered my objection to CGC's policy of labelling of International books with a 'first appearance' designation where the book reprints original US first appearance content. My reasonable suggestion of adding the words (first appearance) "in France" for example fell on deaf ears and now we have books that were printed long after an original US first appearance claiming equal status to them. None of this helps the hobby in my opinion.

Way back last year, before CGC made the official announcement on how they would treat non-US publications, I put forward a series of cases, based on real examples, showing where the census records were being, in my view, corrupted. In a private email discussion with Matt Nelson, I was advised that the cases that I had put forward were 'not the finished design' and, therefore, were misleading. I noted that in this thread, and awaited the announcement. 

It is now some time since that announcement and I note that the census records are still, in my view, corrupted and misleading. If we take CGC's two International categories of 'Unique' and 'Foreign' editions, the website advises as follows:

The description for 'Unique Editions' states:

"CGC classifies and labels unique international comic books by their foreign title and issue number and lists the country of origin on the label."

 

The description for 'Foreign Editions' states:

"CGC classifies and labels foreign editions by the title and issue number of their US counterpart, but also lists the foreign title and issue on the label as well."

 

I take the above as meaning that an international book with a 'Unique' cover will be recorded in the census under its own title and issue number, and a book that is a 'Foreign' will appear in the census under the title / issue number of the US original book that it reprints. That certainly seems to be the case in the more recent cases that I have looked at.

Accordingly, by design, I Fantastici Quattro #1 will appear in the census as I Fantastici Quattro #1, because it does not share a cover with any US original book....

...but I Fantastici Quattro #2 will appear in the census as The Fantastic Four #3, because it shares the cover of that US original book:

@CGC Mike Apologies for the third question today, but can you ask someone at CGC to explain how these two edition types - 'Unique' and 'Foreign' - will be recorded in the CGC census please? Have I summarised it correctly? Is it the case that we will never see a full run of I Fantastici Quattro in the census, as any issue which reprints a key US original book will appear under Fantastic Four, effectively splitting the run across two publishers census records as below?

Also, can you confirm whether CGC adopt the labelling strategy regardless of the submitters wishes. Can a submitter request that a 'Foreign' book be recorded with its own details, and not those of the US original, as CGC would adopt by design? 

Thank you 

[CGC Mike]

I have put in a request for someone from web help to address your concerns, Steve.  

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/12/2022 at 5:33 PM, CGC Mike said:

I have put in a request for someone from web help to address your concerns, Steve.  

They're on their way!

[Axelrod]

Not that I get a vote, but in as much as anyone is paying attention, I am very much team Get Marwood & I as to how these books should be labeled. 

What CGC is currently doing is just a really poor way of labeling foreign editions.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/12/2022 at 6:20 PM, Axelrod said:

Not that I get a vote, but in as much as anyone is paying attention, I am very much team Get Marwood & I as to how these books should be labeled. 

What CGC is currently doing is just a really poor way of labeling foreign editions.

Thanks Axelrod. We've lost the labelling battle, I think, as there's clearly no sign of them budging on this strategy. Every element that is at best questionable has a simple solution but they don't seem to want to acknowledge or discuss them - they certainly won't engage in any debate here about it. It's their company of course, and they can do as they please, but they're not their books to mislabel and fudge. They should aim to bring clarity to the hobby, not confusion.

I've left this alone for a while but would now like some clarification on Census recording seeing as how the design is now presumably fully embedded. I was told the census examples that I had given were not representative of the final design. I'd therefore like to know what it is, where I got it wrong, and what has changed since I made those observations throughout last year. 

It's a shame that the 200 books that feature in their gallery aren't currently recorded anywhere despite being graded and slabbed over 6 months ago. Anyone who uses the census to claim that their book is the "only one graded" might be in for a shock.