Church/MH Superman 1 record sale in January 7 7

[buttock]

On 4/17/2022 at 12:43 PM, Aman619 said:

Except perhaps in the case when comparing an 8.5 Church to a 9.0 no name copy… only one grade apart. . We are seeing a great resurgence in pedigree importance out there, even more so than in the old days before CGC grades supplanted them. Especially Church mega keys like this   Of course, nobody bats !000… DA may have to live with only 3 of the most valuable copies of his 4 big DC keys. 

Poor guy.

[lou_fine]

On 4/17/2022 at 1:06 PM, rob_react said:

On 4/16/2022 at 9:33 PM, Crowzilla said:

Yes. the Church Superman #1 is a bigger/better book than the Church AA16

Not even the same category. Cool book, but... It's not in the same category as books that feature characters that people still care about 

Now, how can you even think that about poor old Granddaddy Supes just because all of the hip generational fanboys of today thinks he's really so much the Man of Yesterday?    

[Aman619]

he meant the Green Lantern who had a love/hate attraction to wood.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Aman619

[lou_fine]

On 4/17/2022 at 11:43 AM, Aman619 said:

Except perhaps in the case when comparing an 8.5 Church to a 9.0 no name copy… only one grade apart. . We are seeing a great resurgence in pedigree importance out there, even more so than in the old days before CGC grades supplanted them. Especially Church mega keys like this   Of course, nobody bats !000… DA may have to live with only 3 of the most valuable copies of his 4 big DC keys. 

As I've always said, it's really a case of to each their own, and in this particular case, it probably really depends more upon Dave's mindset and whether or not he even cares what other collectors or speculators might think.  

Does he even really care about what numerical label his copy is going to get since he probably feels more than comfortable and secure in his own mind that he's still got the superior copy as compared to the Church copy of Superman 1.  Especially when his copy might be a truly unrestored copy as compared to the Church copy which was rather kind of looked down upon back in the day, as many of the collectors really thought of it as a "double restored" copy that had been worked upon and then worked upon a second time to have the restoration removed, albeit not all of it.  

No surprise about the resurgence in the importance of the bigger more established pedigrees in relationship to the CGC grades themselves.  Especially when a pedigree is always a pedigree, whereas the same definitely cannot be said about the grade or restoration stauts of a book with all of the grade manipulation and restoration definition changes in this current environment to maximize the dollars for ALL parties involved.  Heck, how much money do you want to really put down on a book based upon just the CGC grade if you can even see a GA book go from an already HG CGC 9.0 all the way up to a CGC 9.8 and yet it still looks exactly the same from just a visual scan.    

[lou_fine]

On 4/17/2022 at 2:10 PM, Aman619 said:

he meant the Green Lantern who had a love/hate attraction to wood.

Well, of course I clearly knew that...................just trying to be sarcastic here, but probably overplayed it a bit too much.  

[G.A.tor]

On 4/16/2022 at 7:28 PM, ChillMan said:

I wonder if the guy who bought this is Middle Eastern royalty.  I heard that a guy like that was trying to build his collection.  If so...hey, message me.  Why not be my friend and give me $10M....??  To get my comic I started with $19k and made 2 good moves.  I'm not rich at all.

Nope

[G.A.tor]

On 4/16/2022 at 7:24 PM, Terry JSA said:

I’ve heard two things regarding the Church/MH copy of AA #16.

1. It’s now owned by Steve Borock.
2. Rose Verzyl still has possession of it.

Can anyone confirm either one?

1- nope. He posed for a picture with verzyl years ago after cgc graded it.  Maybe that’s the confusion?

2-john and rose still own last I spoke to them about it 

[jimbo_7071]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:45 AM, G.A.tor said:

Tiny little bit top back Spine over staple 

took us a little time to locate but once you find it…very minor 

Is the Mile High copy a first printing?

[lou_fine]

On 4/17/2022 at 2:55 PM, G.A.tor said:

2-john and rose still own last I spoke to them about it 

Was this before or after our resident fellow boardie trillionaire, Mr. Tim Frommelt himself, arrived on the scene throwing bags of imaginery money around for the best of the best?  

[Aman619]

On 4/17/2022 at 5:35 PM, lou_fine said:

As I've always said, it's really a case of to each their own, and in this particular case, it probably really depends more upon Dave's mindset and whether or not he even cares what other collectors or speculators might think.  

Does he even really care about what numerical label his copy is going to get since he probably feels more than comfortable and secure in his own mind that he's still got the superior copy as compared to the Church copy of Superman 1.  Especially when his copy might be a truly unrestored copy as compared to the Church copy which was rather kind of looked down upon back in the day, as many of the collectors really thought of it as a "double restored" copy that had been worked upon and then worked upon a second time to have the restoration removed, albeit not all of it.  

No surprise about the resurgence in the importance of the bigger more established pedigrees in relationship to the CGC grades themselves.  Especially when a pedigree is always a pedigree, whereas the same definitely cannot be said about the grade or restoration stauts of a book with all of the grade manipulation and restoration definition changes in this current environment to maximize the dollars for ALL parties involved.  Heck, how much money do you want to really put down on a book based upon just the CGC grade if you can even see a GA book go from an already HG CGC 9.0 all the way up to a CGC 9.8 and yet it still looks exactly the same from just a visual scan.    

I don’t have the massive stick up my xxxx you do about CGC grading. To me their grades ARE the grade, and I’ve gotten expected grades, great grades and disappointing ones. Times have evolved from the days of everyone deciding their own books grades.  If DA was in the mindset of pre CGC when he picked his keeper copies, he could be as surprised as we all have been on some submissions we bought or chose as the better copy. That’s all I’m saying. 
 

As we know, Dave owned all 3 of the best Superman 1s. So he’s probably okay.  But —- None of us know the grade until we get them back. And “truly unrestored” is meaningless for these books. None of these books is truly unrestored. It’s a quaint point of view.  There’s no way DA or family won’t discuss what needs to be done. 

[woowoo]

On 4/17/2022 at 2:55 PM, G.A.tor said:

1- nope. He posed for a picture with verzyl years ago after cgc graded it.  Maybe that’s the confusion?

2-john and rose still own last I spoke to them about it 

[G.A.tor]

On 4/17/2022 at 6:03 PM, lou_fine said:

Was this before or after our resident fellow boardie trillionaire, Mr. Tim Frommelt himself, arrived on the scene throwing bags of imaginery money around for the best of the best?  

They still own it as of today

[lou_fine]

On 4/17/2022 at 3:29 PM, Aman619 said:

I don’t have the massive stick up my xxxx you do about CGC grading.

Totally true and now I can cancel my doctor's appointment now that I've figure out why it's so painful every time I try to sit down on my big fat xxxx. 

On 4/17/2022 at 3:29 PM, Aman619 said:

To me their grades ARE the grade

Totally agree with you again, until they AREN'T as recent history has clearly shown us, their grades can be so easily manipulated and changed.  

On 4/17/2022 at 3:29 PM, Aman619 said:

There’s no way DA or family won’t discuss what needs to be done. 

Simply amazing as I must totally agree with you once again, but this won't be until it comes time for him or family members to sell and I certainly don't see this happening anytime soon and hence pretty much irrelevant at this point.    

Edited April 18, 2022 by lou_fine

[sfcityduck]

On 4/17/2022 at 2:35 PM, lou_fine said:

No surprise about the resurgence in the importance of the bigger more established pedigrees in relationship to the CGC grades themselves.  Especially when a pedigree is always a pedigree, whereas the same definitely cannot be said about the grade or restoration stats of a book with all of the grade manipulation and restoration definition changes in this current environment to maximize the dollars for ALL parties involved.  Heck, how much money do you want to really put down on a book based upon just the CGC grade if you can even see a GA book go from an already HG CGC 9.0 all the way up to a CGC 9.8 and yet it still looks exactly the same from just a visual scan.    

With CGC in play, the import of a pedigree seems vastly diminished.  The top 3 CGC graded Action 1s (9.0, 9.0, and 8.5) are not pedigrees.  They have blown away the prices paid for the two pedigree 8.0s despite the increment being only a .5 or 1.  That's not going to change.  Today we have videos, photos, third party grading company's, etc.  We can trace books through the upgrades.  And the books which have gotten the biggest upgrades include pedigrees (e.g. MH Supes 1, Allentown CA 1) so the pedigree status gives you no certainty about the CGC grading. 

The benefit of the whole "pedigree" concept, an additional reassurance that the book you are buying is as described, has largely evaporated with the internet and CGC.  Today you can compare the books and make your own judgments based on photos and videos plus have the input of CGC (which for most is the final word).  We can all be DA today and side by side books.  And if DA ever gets his Supes 1 graded, and it grades out above the MH Supes 1, who is going to doubt that his copy is the best copy?  My guess is very very few even though it is not a pedigree.

The only price boost a book should get from being a pedigree now is if the pedigree represents a value adding story (such as Okajima camp books).  Otherwise, there's no reason for a lesser graded and lesser quality pedigree copy to surpass a higher graded and quality non-pedigree.

[jimbo_7071]

On 4/17/2022 at 8:33 PM, sfcityduck said:

With CGC in play, the import of a pedigree seems vastly diminished.  The top 3 CGC graded Action 1s (9.0, 9.0, and 8.5) are not pedigrees.  They have blown away the prices paid for the two pedigree 8.0s despite the increment being only a .5 or 1.  That's not going to change.  Today we have videos, photos, third party grading company's, etc.  We can trace books through the upgrades.  And the books which have gotten the biggest upgrades include pedigrees (e.g. MH Supes 1, Allentown CA 1) so the pedigree status gives you no certainty about the CGC grading. 

The benefit of the whole "pedigree" concept, an additional reassurance that the book you are buying is as described, has largely evaporated with the internet and CGC.  Today you can compare the books and make your own judgments based on photos and videos plus have the input of CGC (which for most is the final word).  We can all be DA today and side by side books.  And if DA ever gets his Supes 1 graded, and it grades out above the MH Supes 1, who is going to doubt that his copy is the best copy?  My guess is very very few even though it is not a pedigree.

The only price boost a book should get from being a pedigree now is if the pedigree represents a value adding story (such as Okajima camp books).  Otherwise, there's no reason for a lesser graded and lesser quality pedigree copy to surpass a higher graded and quality non-pedigree.

Was there ever any importance to a pedigree beyond the actual condition of a book? Mile High copies were selling for three times guide in the 80s because they were much fresher than the books that most dealers were calling near mint. From what I remember, dealers would call any book that would today would be an 8.0 with cream pages and tanned covers near mint, and the Mile High books were much fresher and nicer. Nobody ever cared whose basement they had been stored in. It was all about the appearance and freshness.

Edited April 18, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[woowoo]

On 4/17/2022 at 5:56 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

Was there ever any importance to a pedigree beyond the actual condition of a book? Mile High copies were selling for three times guide in the 80s because they were much fresher than the books that most dealers were calling near mint. From what I remember, dealers would call any book that would today would be an 8.0 with cream pages and tanned covers near mint, and the Mile High books were much fresher and nicer. Nobody ever cared whose basement they had been stored in. It was all about the appearance and freshness.

In the 80s ever Dealer in the SF bay area thought Chuck was a nut asking 3 times guide  and 3 times guide was 1000-2000-3000 back than for the top books  that shows how old I am man those were great times 

[RareHighGrade]

For the highest regarded pedigrees, the pedigree status unquestionably makes a difference in the FMV.  The most obvious example being Church copies, which consistently sell for more than similarly graded, and sometimes even higher graded, non-pedigree copies.

[Aman619]

On 4/17/2022 at 10:15 PM, RareHighGrade said:

For the highest regarded pedigrees, the pedigree status unquestionably makes a difference in the FMV.  The most obvious example being Church copies, which consistently sell for more than similarly graded, and sometimes even higher graded, non-pedigree copies.

That’s what I’m saying.  I’m with all of you that when CGC came along, the higher grade no name copies trumped the lower graded pedigree copies. The pedigree bubble burst. Why buy that sweet Rockford 9.2 when offered a no name 9.4?  Pedigrees lost their must buy lustre   
 

im seeing the new money without our shared history going for the allure and da het of the Pedigree labels   Specifically Church copies  as they keep buying they may follow our lead, but there’s no doubt this Superman 1 price is related to it being the mythical Church copy —- not meaning it’s the best copy, but simply the Church copy of Superman 1 from the most desirable pedigree collection  

 

 

 

[tth2]

On 4/18/2022 at 11:09 AM, Aman619 said:

im seeing the new money without our shared history going for the allure and da het of the Pedigree labels   Specifically Church copies  as they keep buying they may follow our lead, but there’s no doubt this Superman 1 price is related to it being the mythical Church copy —- not meaning it’s the best copy, but simply the Church copy of Superman 1 from the most desirable pedigree collection  

Or maybe it's simply market acceptance that it's the best copy that's likely to ever be publicly available. 

There's no point in "downgrading" the hierarchy of various high grade copies because it's known that better copies are in the collections of Anderson or Verzyl or Brulato or whoever, if for all practical purposes those books don't exist.  

[Aman619]

On 4/17/2022 at 11:38 PM, tth2 said:

Or maybe it's simply market acceptance that it's the best copy that's likely to ever be publicly available. 

There's no point in "downgrading" the hierarchy of various high grade copies because it's known that better copies are in the collections of Anderson or Verzyl or Brulato or whoever, if for all practical purposes those books don't exist.  

Great point. I wasn’t thinking about that aspect. Dave holding his books so long — and others too— retards the price escalation of the hobby!